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- [00:00]
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- [01:01]
Commercial Narrator
Elio has a new home, now streaming on Disney.
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Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
That's amazing.
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Commercial Narrator
Critics agree Elio is fun and full.
- [01:08]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Of heart and humor.
- [01:09]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
These are the lava tunnels. I am not fireproof. Just get in my mouth. Actually kind of comfy in here. It is.
- [01:15]
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It's certified fresh and verified hot.
- [01:18]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Ta da.
- [01:19]
Commercial Narrator
Elio's bringing the whole family together on Disney.
- [01:22]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
One, two, three, Disney.
- [01:26]
Commercial Narrator
And Pixar's Elio, now streaming on Disney plus A pg. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:35]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Hello, hello, hello, hello to Dana Trachtenberg Ziger, another wonderful author with a middle name. And I'm intensely jealous. I'm also intensely jealous of your writing. Wonderful, lyrical writing. And you have a brand new nonfiction STEM book out just last week.
- [01:59]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes, can you believe it?
- [02:03]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
With Mel Brook, which is in the imprint of Lerner. And that's a wonderful, gorgeous book. And now I've thrown the tennis ball up in the air. You have to wave your book around and brag about it.
- [02:17]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
This is my new book. It says, beautiful stuff, stunning artwork by. I'm going to butcher it because I never took French. Jose Bizaillion. I'm so sorry. If you're watching, I butchered it. Please feel free to correct me. But seriously, like, she captured my former mentor and friend, Kathleen Friel, Dr. Kathleen Friel, just perfectly. And you know, she really, like, looked at these neuron trees. Like, how perfect could this possibly be? It's just, it's beyond my wildest imagination.
- [02:52]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
So I'm so excited to have you on the program and I should also mention that we've actually met in Telafue, which is such a. A great privilege for me to meet authors like you. And we have so much in common. You're a PhD scientist, biologist. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. I forgot to introduce myself and I don't have a middle name, but I'm in such jealousy of people like you who do. I asked AI to give me a middle name, and my middle name now is Edge, so. Hi, everybody. I'm Mel Edge. Maybe I should be Mel V. Edge. Mel the Edge Rosenberg, Host, Children's Literature channel of the New Books Network. And I'm here with the wonderful Donna Trachtenberg Zeiger. So we're going to call you Dr. Zeiger now because how. How many of my interviewees, including people who write about science, actually scientists. And not only are you a scientist, but you have published scientific articles and we talk about the top five in publishing, Children's top five of science, something I aspire to would never succeed it. You tell the audience what Science, nature, pnas. Come on. Go ahead.
- [04:16]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Thank you. Yes. I mean, unless you're in the field, I feel like it's similar to publishing. It's like, it's so wonderful, it's so amazing, and everybody's so rallying and support, but unless you've gone through the process, you don't really know what it takes to publish a children's book. And honestly, also what it takes to publish one of these papers. I'm very fortunate and grateful to my former advisors and everybody in the lab. It was great research that I'm very proud of. Yeah. Science, pnas, neuron, blah, blah, blah. Really great, wonderful, amazing journals.
- [04:54]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
These are the bibles of science, folks. Think top five publishers. And then multiply this several times. Yes. And you've kind of abandoned this wonderful scientific career for something as mundane as writing children's books. Let's start by talking about this wonderful book and also quoting from it because it's so lyrically written and showing some of the gorgeous artwork.
- [05:29]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Well, I mean, this, this book, so, you know, it's very tied to my science career. When I was an undergraduate, I worked in Dr. Jack Martin's lab, who, you know, I was this, like, little undergrad. I'd worked at Merck, I'd had some lab experiences, but this was like, you know, I walked into, like, Columbia's med school. I interviewed, like, a whole bunch of labs. It was so fascinating and there's so many cool opportunities, but Dr. Martin's lab. He tells me how to call him Jack. It will never happen. I'm so sorry. He's forever Dr. Martin to me. He did this really amazing research on, you know, corticospinal development. He had a lot of funding from Christopher Rees foundation, for example. Like, really amazing stuff. Um, and he is, like the nicest person. He is so kind and sweet, which is not so common in science, let's be honest.
- [06:30]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Present. Present company excluded, of course.
- [06:32]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Absolutely. You are the warmest and fuzziest person ever.
- [06:36]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
I was talking about you. And we're not going to talk about body hair today, Dan.
- [06:40]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Body hair. You're like a worm.
- [06:43]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
You're a warm teddy bear that kind of fuzzy.
- [06:47]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes. Cuddle. Cuddle. You know, nice hug. Yeah. But, yes, similar to him, actually. He also, you know, smiles brightly, just like you. And he was wonderful. But, you know, it was a very intimidating experience. And walking into the lab, he. He paired me with Kathleen. She was a postdoc in lab, Dr. Friel. And she was just so. She's funny, she's hilarious. She's so witty and she's so patient. I asked, you know, my little undergrad self, like, 5 million questions. And she just patiently walked me through everything. Papers and, you know, the animal research and how to do various things. She was also the first scientist I'd ever met with cerebral palsy. I actually grew up with somebody in my. In our close family friends who the daughter was my age almost exactly, and she has cp, but her cognitive function was impaired, is impaired. And so it was a very different experience. So this is the first time in academia, really, that I encountered somebody like Kathleen. And through the years, you know, we kept in touch and just like watching what she has gone through is unreal. Like, she is brilliant. She has her own lab funding. You know how hard that is. You know, she's won amazing awards and grants and people treat her terribly, honestly, terribly. And so. And so, you know, this is really from the start of my science career and when I. When I started writing children's books, you know, I thought to myself, what am I not seeing? What's kind of missing? And I was like, this story, right? I don't see many main characters with disability at all, let alone any. I really couldn't find cerebral palsy. And I think that her story is so important for so many reasons in addition to representation, also because, you know, she works harder than all of us to do, you know, to talk, to walk. And she does amazing things. And, you know, kids in this day and age of you know, instant gratification. Kids need to know that it takes hard work. All of us are. This is not, you know, not a quick, easy jump. So I'm very excited to share her story. I'm very honored that she trusted me. And, like, I tell her, like, if anybody walks away from the book not being awed, it's purely my fault because she and her story are amazing, and I'm just a vessel. And I'm grateful.
- [09:25]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
There'S no word awing, but I am awed by you. Open the book. Read us a little bit.
- [09:32]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Sure.
- [09:33]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Show us a few pictures.
- [09:35]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Sure. Rewriting the rules. How Dr. Kathleen Friel created new possibilities for brain research and disability. This is the stunning end pages. And I like to read to kids, and I like to tell them to be on the hunt for dandelions. Dandelions are a symbol for cerebral palsy because of their perseverance and growth in hard conditions. Dandelion wisps dared Kathleen to make wishes. Kathleen blew, or at least she tried. Kathleen's eyes blinked, her head shook, her arm trembled. The fluffy seeds stayed stuck. Kathleen was born with cerebral palsy, and her muscles didn't always listen. Instead of blowing, she fiercely flapped the flower. At last, seeds sailed and laughter soared toward the sky.
- [10:32]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Gorgeous. When. When did this change in your life occur? From science writing, which, you know, you don't have alliteration and you don't have this, you know, the experiment was conducted under ambient temperature.
- [10:51]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes. Very different.
- [10:53]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Always. Always in the. In the passive, which we teach our children's writers not to do.
- [11:01]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
It's. I know it's like opposite, opposite. So I will say that I love.
- [11:05]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
So what happened from here?
- [11:08]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Well, I've always been a writer. I will say that I've always been a bookworm, and I've always been a writer. I wrote poems as a young child. I'm trilingual, and I wrote poems in multiple languages. I think kind of, to the astonishment of my parents, are kind of like, what is happening here? I have this tin shaped like a carousel, and I would write my poems, and I put them in there. So at this point, if you open it, it explodes out like confetti. It's like there's so much jam packed in there. Throughout my life, and I always loved writing, but my family, you know, is Russian, Jewish, and in the Soviet. Former Soviet Union, you know, like only stem. That was kind of. You know, that was kind of the thing. And my dad had this policy where, like, they didn't support, you know, like, us studying anything in college, unless it was STEM related. So I was always a creative writer. I always loved creative writing. I was like a poetry editor in high school. I always gravitated towards it, but it's not that I don't feel like I was uncomfortable. I found my niche in science. I was really excited about neuroscience as an undergrad and about molecular biology as a grad student. And I really found what was exciting to me, what was passionate to me, all the questions that I studied. But I kept writing throughout. I tried to find creative outlets throughout. I published a few, you know, like blogs and whatevers. The real transformation happened though. I was a professor at that point for seven years. Things were going really well. I was, you know, I ran my biology department and I love my job, honestly, I felt really fulfilled by it. I love my students. Like I still keep in touch with some of my students. I love them.
- [13:11]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
What were you teaching?
- [13:13]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I was teaching all sorts of biology courses across the four year program, from Introduction to Biology to senior Seminar where the kids would write their thesis for the year.
- [13:28]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
But no Poetry of Wild?
- [13:32]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Definitely not. Definitely not, no. That was like my spare time. And you know what happened and I was, you know, this was like, I was like up for promotion the next year. It was like a, you know, and what happened was Covid hit and I had a newborn baby. My husband had had major surgery right before, you know, and my oldest child was in third grade and sobbing every day. To be honest, like, I, like, teachers were in a very tough spot. But like my university students would have rebelled if they had had to do what he had to do as a third grader. You know, like two page lists of like, now do this, now do that. Oh, learn fractions from YouTube. It was terrible. It's good. You know, I think he, like, you know, it was tough. He was sobbing every day and I was like, this cannot continue. We can't do this. And you know, we had several immunocompromised people in our family. So, you know, I had to jump through the HR hoops and they gave me fall semester. They finally relented after a lot of hoops. Fall semester, remote. But they couldn't guarantee spring. This was long before there was any hope of a vaccine or anything. And I said, how am I? What do you mean, not guaranteed? Like what? Like, you know, good luck finding a nanny. If you found a nanny, you, you could, you know, it cost your whole house. Like, it was super expensive. I had a newborn. I had a newborn at a preschooler. Like, Zoom was not an option. There's no zoom, diaper changes, you know, so. So I kind of looked at my husband and I was like, I think I need to, like, resign and homeschool the kids. And he was like, what are you feeling okay? Like, what's going on with you? Like, let me take you to the doctor. And, you know, we talked a lot about it. He's a wonderful partner. And he was like, look, let's think about, can we both go part time? Can we try some other way, something? But that wasn't financially feasible. And so, you know, I made the difficult decision, and it was very shocking. And I started homeschooling the kids. And in homeschooling the kids, I started reading tons and tons of books, like, literally hundreds of books. And one day I had an idea, and I should say, when I was a child, I was a bookworm. I read one of my favorites, you might know Enid Blyton. She's British, so a lot of people in America have never heard of her. But she's my favorite author. And, you know, I kind of. When I was a kid, I kind of had this dream, like, I want to be Enid Blyton one day. Just a prolific children's author. She really influenced my life, as well as many other authors. And so as I was reading the kids, you know, the books, I had this idea, and my husband was like, that's a great idea for a book and you should write it. I was like, what are you talking about? I should write it? I'm starting homeschooling. And what do I like? I don't, you know? He's like, no. And I thought about it. I was like, well, you know, so something I've always wanted to do. I always, always, always wanted to write books. I always. I had, you know, several ideas. I didn't have time. And I was like, you know what? I need a little time for me. I need something for myself and my soul. So I started taking a ton of classes and reading books. And that's, you know, that's where it started.
- [16:58]
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- [17:27]
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- [17:58]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Are you.
- [17:59]
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- [18:11]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
See mintmobile.com Dan, how did you know that you needed to study? You know, we've talked about this. Our careers have been very parallel, but it took me about 40 years to realize that I really didn't know how to write a good children's story. And you knew very, very quickly. How did you know that you had to take courses, you had to improve? I mean, you were a writer.
- [18:39]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Well, what I will say is I reached out to my network and somebody knew Hannah Stieffel, who is like, legend. Okay? Like, it's like, oh, yeah, I just know LeBron, you know, like, okay, I like, I like somebody new, Hannah Stiefel. And they like my. My friend, my dear friend who has been such a support this whole time. And she was like, hey, I'll connect you, because why not? And Chana, being like the wonderful, gracious giving soul that she is, read my manuscript, gave me like a really thoughtful critique and was like, hey. And you know, like, here are organizations you can join and you might want to think about critique groups.
- [19:21]
Friend of Dana
And.
- [19:21]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
And at first I was like, whoa. My friend was like, oh my God, you have to do all that? Yeah. And I was like, well, that sounds really fun. And. Whereas my friend was like, ah, okay. If I ever thought about that, no, thank you. And I was like, woo, sounds cool. And I would be forever grateful to Chana. And I started. So I think also, like, you know, I've always felt like a writer, but I'm not sure. Like, I felt like I knew what I was doing. And when she wrote me that, I was like, okay, there's a lot more here, I guess. I guess that's it. But definitely thank you to Hannah forever. And I try to pay it forward. And yeah, I Just started getting into a CBWI and it was hard. It was hard to like find critique groups and it was all over Zoom. So thanks to Zoom and thanks to Covid, like people in Massachusetts but far away were like, yeah, you can join our critique group. We're on Zoom anyway, whatever. And they're very like kind and welcoming. And yeah, I think I just kind of. I probably tend to be a little bit more on the self deprecating side to begin with. So I probably like come with the assumption that like, you know, it's a good, It's a good Soviet parent training, you know, like I know nothing. You know, nothing. You know, I think that probably Mitzvot is nice.
- [20:46]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Nicho.
- [20:48]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I think that was kind of. I think that was, that was kind of it. And I think in general, I mean, we're both lifelong learners, right? We love to learn and I love to. You know, for me it's been like really fun. Very different part of my brain, very different field, but it's been. I think, I think that what I learned a lot from my PhD that is transferable to all of life is how to learn, you know, like, okay, dive into this and read the books and, you know, and study like mini, sort of mini, mini mfa.
- [21:39]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And so you studied and you joined critique groups. And Hannah. Hi. Fana. She is wonderful. And how did you, how did you break in? How did you find Gabby? Gabby's been on the show. She's wonderful. You connect with us. She's. What a true spirit of an agent. How did you and Gabby connect?
- [22:02]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I know Gabby is wonderful. Every time I come off a call with Gabby, my husband is like, I love Gabby. I love her, like, because I just come off like, like she just makes me feel so supported and she's such a cheerleader. And that's what you really want. How did I connect with Gabby? Was so. I had my. I had a first agent and that was short lived. She's, she, she has wonderful deals and she has like a great reputation. But I quickly learned about myself that like, I need more communication. That's just me for one second then.
- [22:35]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
To find an agent. Scientists don't have to find agents. Thank God for that, you know?
- [22:41]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Thank God.
- [22:42]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Right. But the authors in the States generally do. Finding an agent is finding a needle in a hundred haystacks.
- [22:54]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes.
- [22:54]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And you have had two agents, so run us through that.
- [22:57]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Three. Three. Well, no, the second one just. He left on his own accord. Jonathan Rosen, also wonderful.
- [23:06]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
He just direct agenting he's also been on the show.
- [23:10]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes, yes.
- [23:12]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
You're tri. Legal and tri agent.
- [23:16]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
That's right. That's right.
- [23:17]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
How did you find your first anonymous agent?
- [23:20]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
So, you know, I will say that I think a thread through my life is doing the unconventional thing, the unorthodox thing. The way that I got to my professorship was a little bit also less traditional, and all of this is less traditional. I did what you weren't supposed to do. First of all, I did query with my first manuscript. I did get, actually, agent bites. And I got my agent. It's interesting. I had an offer from another agent, and then I did the thing where you nudge all the other agents. And so the one that I ended up accepting was like, yes, I'd like to have a call. Um, but I did the thing, like, I. I queried with my first manuscript. I also, I don't agree with the, like, you know, query a few agents at a time, Slow dribble. I am like, shotgun, boom. Go all at once. Like, go thoughtfully.
- [24:19]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Oh, hold on, hold on, dear.
- [24:20]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Hold on, hold on.
- [24:22]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Your first manuscript, which was about paper clips. I. I know that one.
- [24:28]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I know that you know that one. You've seen it. Not my strongest, honestly.
- [24:32]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Now, it has lots of potential. I think it has lots of potential. Paper clips. It's also, you know, it's a little bit science, a little bit nonfiction, a little bit fiction. And your first manuscript. And some agents nibbled on it.
- [24:50]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yeah. Yes, surprisingly. But the thing is that, like, I'm not surprised. Thank you.
- [24:56]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
I would nibble it. You know, Tilda's book on paperclips. It's one of my favorite subjects when I teach innovation and creativity. I mean.
- [25:04]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Exactly. It's a great exercise. Exactly. It's great with like, every age. Yeah, yeah. You know, but the thing is, is that I, you know, I was definitely not prepared. Like, my other manuscripts were not up to snuff. I had other manuscripts, I felt, thought maybe they were up to snuff. They were definitely not up to snuff. But, you know, I was. I was lucky and grateful. And so that was the first agent. And I quickly realized that, you know, just like I. I really. I learned about myself that as a budding author and writer, I needed communication. That was different. And so I elected to part ways. I actually had the manuscript for this book written, and I was like, I would like a different process. And so I willingly went back into the trenches. That was. So that was in May. And I had, you know, you have a 30 day period of time where you're not allowed to submit any other agents. So in that 30 day period, I worked with all my manuscripts. I tried to polish, polish, polish. I had written new stuff in the time when I was agented. And I selected my, like, top four, I wrote queries for them. And then I started writing drafts for agents that I was going to query. And on day 31, I was like, boom. I submitted a time. Because I was like, here's the thing, right?
- [26:30]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
You're the dandelion lady. Donna dispersed to the world.
- [26:36]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Well, you know, I think I'm laughing.
- [26:38]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Because I was much the same, right?
- [26:41]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
This is the thing, like coming from science and changing so drastically. Not necessarily that I won't ever go back, but I'll always be writing now. Like, this is, this is something that I want for myself. And so I really needed this to take off. I really, really needed it. And so, you know, I was ready. And I, you know, and my kids, like, I homeschool my kids. I had a, you know, special program that the kids were busy for several hours of the day. I sat with my laptop till my feet grew numb. You know, I was like sending the queries out like crazy and I needed something to take off. And Jonathan Rosen, God bless him, I will always love him. You know, he responded and he was like, yeah, let's do it.
- [27:27]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Not to love nothing.
- [27:28]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
That's not exactly, exactly. And you know, he was, he was, he was agent number two. But like my first real agent, I think, you know, in that he really got me. He really represent like, and you know, it's like not short lived.
- [27:44]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
So agent number one tried to sell the Paperflip story.
- [27:47]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes.
- [27:48]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Jonathan tried to sell which story.
- [27:51]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
So we started with another story. I don't think you've seen it. But it didn't, it didn't sell. But then this was manuscript number two. So this went out. So I signed with Jonathan in August. We went out with one manuscript that falls and like, just to a very small number of editors. And it was like, you know, like positive feedback but, you know, maybe not so sellable. Saleable. And so in, I think January, we went out with this manuscript. And so interestingly, like right away, my editor wrote back with three questions. She wanted to know if I was amenable to changing the title. Yes. And she was 100% right.
- [28:35]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Was that the editor at Millbrook?
- [28:37]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes. Carol.
- [28:38]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Yeah. Who's dear. Who hadn't taken the manuscript yet. But she wanted some, some changes. Which. Which happens.
- [28:46]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Lots of Changes. Lots of changes. And she also asked if I had had a sensitivity reader read it, and the answer was yes. And if I was open to more sensitivity readers. And the answer was definitely yes. And she was like, great, you know, I'll get back to you. And didn't hear from her for a while. Was publishing, but that was, I think, January, maybe February, early February. And then in May, we suddenly heard from Carol that she was taking into acquisitions. And we were like, okay, let's do it. And, you know, and that was. And that was. That was the timeline there. And that was Jonathan. And then Jonathan left. To answer your original question, Jonathan left agenting 2023 in fall, winter. Like, early, early winter. But, you know, he was. He was. You know, he. He had his own things, but he was so kind. And so, you know, he really wanted to find a home for every one of his clients. And so Gabby was this new agent coming in to Seymour Agency, which has been a really solid agency, and she looked at some of his clients, and I was just very, very lucky that she, you know, my work resonated with her. And we met and, like, the rest is history. Like, we met and I was like, okay, yes. She's so warm and bubbly and, you know, supportive. And, you know, we've been learning together. And she's. She's awesome. She. She knows her stuff. She's done a phenomenal job. And so I feel like Jonathan, I'll always miss him. And also, he held my hand into the next chapter.
- [30:34]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
That's wonderful. So now the book is out nine days. How does it feel to your debut picture book? How does it compare to your paper in PNAS or Science or what have you? Or what's the. What's the feeling?
- [30:53]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Such an interesting comparison. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that, and I don't think I've ever thought about that. I think for me, the experience of this book has been the people. With me, it's, you know, science can be solitary. It's not really solitary because you really do work in a team. You work together, you know, but it's a kind of small team. And even when, like, even if the lab is excited for you, even if the field, you know, like, ooh, oh, my fellow C Elegans researchers and pheromone sensation, you know, it's so awesome and they're so supportive, but it's pretty small. And it's also not personal. It's not personal. This. Like, it's funny because at the book launch, I was really so nervous. And I was like, what is happening? Like, I'm not nervous before I give a lecture anymore. And I met with some kids and I wasn't nervous about that either, but I was nervous because this is really a part of my soul and that it feels much more vulnerable to share. And sharing it with Kathleen and her family is just beyond words.
- [32:06]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And Dana, you're such a beautiful person. I've met you. You make me want to cry.
- [32:11]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Oh, thank you.
- [32:13]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
This is the difference, you know? Okay. And I, I feel this also, finally, after so many years. I'm writing from my kishkas, you say. You say you're writing from your soul. I call it my kishkas. And when your kishkas, which means your entrails or whatever the word is in English are on the table, you. You are very sensitive about what, what people have to say about them.
- [32:39]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. It's really. It's been. It's scary. It was, you know, scary. It's scary. It's risky, you know, seeing first Kathleen. Yeah.
- [32:54]
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Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
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Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
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Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Sorry, what? Void you through all of the rejections and the almost along the way when you had this stellar and really, I mean stellar scientific career that you had put on hold. And when we put scientific careers on hold, they're much more difficult to come back to, you know, because those C. Elegans have a way of worming away from us. They're not so elegant and. Sorry.
- [34:51]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Oh, I love it, love it.
- [34:55]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
But you know, you should, you should. I mean, I never studied worms. You studied worms. Worms are amazing, you know, and, and, and you study them. At the end of the day, you sacrifice them, we call them, you know, because science is a little bit of a religion in my opinion. So the animals are sacrificed and, and then. But you know, you should write a children's book, which is stem and not stem, about the worm that got away.
- [35:30]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
That lived. The worm that lived.
- [35:33]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Yeah. No, we are in a sense the worms that got away. We escaped the lab, right?
- [35:39]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:42]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
We should make a little, like a little rack pack of scientists who found a better world writing for. Writing for children.
- [35:50]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Don't tell the others.
- [35:52]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Here's my question. Here's the question. Finally, I remember the question. Okay, the question was, what did you do in those dark nights of rejection? He's oy vey. When you said, oh, I, you know, I was a well known and very, very established and revered scientist. And now I'm, I'm nothing. I'm niche. I'm bobcat.
- [36:17]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Zero. Yeah.
- [36:18]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
What buoyed you through?
- [36:20]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Well, you know, in graduate school, so I, I did pheromone sensation, but I also, I moved to a lab in bacteria on, you know, DNA repair. And that was a hard transition. That was when I was pregnant with my first. And there have been a lot of these moments, like when I think about the metaphor for graduate school and science. This is going to be pretty, I think of a really thick, gnarly rope and like blistery, bloody hands and holding onto that rope. And I think it was that same kind of perseverance. You know, grad school wasn't easy. You know, I defended on the day when my oldest turned two, you know, and I just, it was really hard. And my husband is in grad school, so we both had no money and we're trying to establish ourselves and, you know, that perseverance of like, just stick it through, just stick it through, Just keep going, keep going, keep going. And I think also, you know, some of that former Soviet, you know, Jewish mentality, you know, I've watched my parents struggle.
- [37:31]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
I've watched, you know, but did you feel from the family that they came around to this, this new career, which wasn't science?
- [37:40]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I did not tell my parents for a long time, actually. I didn't. Yeah, I Did it because. Because, you know, I. It was hard to predict how they might react, and I really loved it, and I didn't want to kind of penetrate that, you know, I wanted to keep it. So I didn't. I didn't share for a while.
- [38:01]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
You didn't come out of the lab.
- [38:03]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I didn't. I was closeted in the lab. I was labbed. And surprisingly. Actually, it's funny because. So my. My late father, may his memory be, you know, a blessing. He. He was like the biggest, you know, stem, science, math, you know, like, I had, you know, the old crotchety Russian men teaching me, you know, math when I was a kid. You know, he. He kind of reacted very surprisingly. He was like, you know, he was like, wow, show me. Show me what you're writing. And he read it, and he was a very busy guy, and he read it. He gave me feedback. He. He, He. He was very supportive. Shockingly, he was like, wow, this is beautiful. You're so talented. And he. He said to me that, you know, he was sorry that he hadn't supported this earlier in my life and that, you know, he kind of. He understood that, you know, like, yes, STEM was good, and, like, I don't have regrets. I loved what I did.
- [39:10]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
That was so wonderful of him to apologize.
- [39:12]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He really. He was, in the end, very supportive.
- [39:17]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And, you know, I'm going to say it's unbelievable that we're coming soon to the end of our interview, and it's asked like this, and I have lots of things to ask you, but the good news is that somebody has told me some kind word that you have another book coming out, which we can't talk about unless you want to share something about it. It's another STEM book.
- [39:44]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
It's another stem nonfiction. And something vague about something vague is happening with one of my manuscripts that is STEM nonfiction and lyrical, and I'm very excited about it. Okay.
- [39:57]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And so this leads me to one of the last things, and I don't know if we ever discussed this, but we have to discuss this at some point. You know, people talk about. I'm going to go out on a limb now, Lana, so you don't have to be out there with me. You can let me dangle as you like. You talk a lot about own voices. You know that Jewish people should write about Hanukkah. But, you know, most of the STEM books for the picture golf level are written by people who, between you and me, are not really scientists. They have degrees in other things. And, like, you Said, I feel that somebody who has a PhD and maybe it's PhD and it's not science, you know, having to do this 3, 4, 5, 6 year journey where you. You learn to learn. I think it is invaluable, as you say. And I get to interview people like you, who I have so much appreciation for, because you are really an old voice, as you are a scientist, you are a PhD, you've done it at the highest level, and anything you want to write about science, I'm going to be there for you.
- [41:21]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
And likewise, do you ever feel this.
- [41:23]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Way where you're reading nonfiction, whatever that is, and you're reading stem, and you say, does that happen?
- [41:34]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes, yes. I read to my kids. And I will. Some. Like, if there's something that's, you know, problematic, I will pause, put the book down and be like, guys, we gotta talk about this. Like, I have seen quite a few things that are not accurate, just simply not accurate. And I think that. I think it's possible. Like, I, you know, I. I've seen talented people who are not scientists, you know, write science, or my editor, I have to say, you know, she. She didn't major in science, but her parents were scientists. She has an appreciation and she. The thing is, is that she does the work. You know, I think that if you do the work, that's what it's about. It's about not having hubris. And I think that's kind of the answer for me. Like, you know, I dove into, you know, I think it's about doing the work. And I think that somebody who really is excited to write about science, it's possible, it can be done, and I've seen it done well, but, you know, by people who are not scientists. But. But it does take work. It's not, you know, I would never just be like, oh, I like history. I can write about history. I'm not a historian. I haven't studied it. I haven't studied it. I could. That's not a closed door to me, but it takes the work. So, yeah, I absolutely have seen sometimes, maybe, Mel, you and I should open up a publishing arm. You know, let's do it. Science. Science publishing. Army.
- [43:00]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Call it bookworm.
- [43:03]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
You are a fighter today. You are awesome.
- [43:06]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
It's just so much fun. So much fun seeing you. So much fun seeing you again. What do people not get about us? What do people not get about scientists?
- [43:20]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I mean, I think, to be fair, sometimes our communication is not great. Um, and I think that, you know, I think there, in some ways, we live on different planets. You know, I think that bridge is okay.
- [43:34]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
I'm. I'm going to make it okay. What do people not understand? What is the Achilles heel of being a scientist? What is our. You know, we have virtues. What's the opposite of virtues? This. Virtues. What is this virtue of a scientist?
- [43:52]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I think that we get so wrapped up in our world and with our jargon and with our specialties that we forget the bigger picture. You know, we forget to zoom out, why this is important, why people care and they should care. Right. Like, a lot of this is funded by taxes by them. Right. And they're voters, you know, and we forget to, like, come out of our bubble. And I think that's also why writing children's books about science is so important to me. I want.
- [44:25]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And so difficult. And I'm going to jump in. I'm going to jump into your bubble. I've met. I don't know, Donna. You're bringing out in me the most. I'm getting into trouble here by the minute. I've met hundreds and thousands of scientists. They suffer from, including me, from various degrees of hubris.
- [44:49]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes.
- [44:49]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And this is what you say, the bubble. Right. You know, my bubble is the world. But when you read famous children's book writers, you don't find this. You know, they don't say, oh, oh, I. You know, I know the way it is. That's my experience.
- [45:06]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
So true. So true. 100%.
- [45:09]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And then they get us wrong. You know, somebody interviews me 20 years ago, I'm saying this and this and this and this. A lot of what I said back then was wrong. Because scientists, you know, they have to. And they get it wrong. They say, you can write nonfiction, right? Scientific nonfiction, but 20 years later, you're going to have to go back and fix it.
- [45:27]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Exactly, exactly. Because there's a scientific process. We learn new things. I mean, this has been a disaster, you know, recently in history. Like, it's. And we don't communicate. Like, we don't communicate this process and how much we know and how much we don't know and that. That's normal. That's part of it.
- [45:47]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
For me, not knowing is the most important part of being a scientist.
- [45:51]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Yes.
- [45:52]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
And this is what doesn't come across in children's books. When you write stem nonfiction, and you try to get it right. This is, for me, the Oywe moment. Anyway, last question. What about fiction?
- [46:08]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
I love fiction. I read fiction. I write fiction. I have some stuff on sub. And I love to weave in my science and I think both fiction and nonfiction, as you should. Yeah, yeah. Making it a story. Making it a story. And I love it when readers learn without realizing. That's my favorite. That's my goal.
- [46:32]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Wonderful. In summary, would you like to read a few more of your lovely, lyrical sentences from your lovely book, which I highly recommend because it works on so many levels. It works on accepting people with different abilities, people who are different, and this incredible metaphor of someone who appears not to be smart but is probably much smarter than 99.9% of people. And you've managed to trap that so well in your magic last of a book. So read us a little bit more.
- [47:14]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Thank you. With pleasure. All right. When Kathleen was a toddler, her parents wanted to know how to help her learn to walk, to speak, and to do other things for herself. They brought her to a doctor who told them that part of Kathleen's brain that controls her muscles had been injured when she was born. He said, she will never walk normally. She will never speak clearly. She will never get better. Send Kathleen to live in a place where others can take care of her so you can focus on your younger children. No way. Kathleen and her parents walked out the door, leaving behind that doctor forever. This is, like, one of my favorites. I love this, this, this. This doctor. They found a new doctor. He never wore socks, but always wore a smile. He told Kathleen's parents to treat her like any other child. And then. It's such a short. Yeah.
- [48:19]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Such a lovely, great story. The illustrations really are wonderful.
- [48:22]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Stunning, Stunning. Stunning. Yeah. She. She had, like, all these Easter egg dandelions throughout and, you know, like, the way she illustrated neurons, like, so creatively. It was beautiful.
- [48:35]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Wow. So, you know, we are way over time here. I'm just going to say thank you. We're going to throw everybody out and jump back in to have our little private goodbye or hello. And it's been wonderful interviewing you on your brand new, lovely debut picture book, stem and nonfiction, which works so well on so many levels. Dr. Dana Trachtenberm Saiger, and the book is called Rewriting the Rules, came out with Notebook, an imprint of Lerner. Really well done on so many different levels, and I wish it much, much success. And also to your mentor who is the subject of this wonderful, wonderful book.
- [49:24]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Love you, Kathleen. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for having me here.
- [49:29]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
Oh, and people, rather than buy this book, you will not regret it for a minute. I will refund your money, but you're going to love it. And I am Mel the Edge Rosenberg. What am I? I'm the. The moment that I got this middle name from. From ChatGPT, I forgot who I am. And you know, maybe that's good, because soon AI won't beat me at all to host this program. Maybe that's the idea. The first they give you a middle name, and then they strip you everything.
- [49:59]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
They take over.
- [50:01]
Mel the Edge Rosenberg
In the meantime, I'm the host of the Children's Literature channel of the New Books Web Network. And I've been here with the incredible Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeigert. Bye bye. Everybody else, go and buy the book.
- [50:12]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Thanks, Mel.
- [50:26]
Friend of Dana
Yo, this is important, man. My favorite Lululemon shorts, the ones you got me back in the day. I think they're pace breakers. The ones with all the pockets. Well, I just got back from vacation and I think I left them in my hotel room. And, dude, I need to replace these shorts. I wear them, like every day with that Lulu hoodie you got me. Could you send me the link to.
- [50:44]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Where you got them?
- [50:45]
Friend of Dana
Thanks, bro. Talk soon.
- [50:47]
Dr. Dana Trachtenberg Zeiger
Looking for your newest go to's shop.
- [50:49]
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