Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Title: David Broder, "Mussolini's Grandchildren: Fascism in Contemporary Italy" (Pluto Press, 2023)
Podcast: New Books Network / Critical Theory Channel
Host: Morteza Hajizadeh
Guest: David Broder
Date: January 10, 2026

This episode discusses David Broder's book Mussolini's Grandchildren: Fascism in Contemporary Italy. Broder, a historian and journalist who has written extensively on Italian politics and the far right, explores the genealogy and transformation of Italian fascism, examining its continuity and adaptation through modern political movements, particularly focusing on Italy's current ruling party, Fratelli d'Italia (Brothers of Italy). The conversation spans historical developments, ideological shifts, political strategies, and the interplay between memory, nationalism, and contemporary right-wing politics.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal and Academic Background

• [02:51] Broder describes his English background and move to Italy in 2011.
• He pursued a PhD on the anti-fascist resistance in Rome during WWII, which led him to research both historical fascism and contemporary far-right movements.

2. Genealogy of Fascism: From Mussolini to Today

• [04:29] The "grandchildren" in the book’s title reflects generational continuity—not a carbon copy, but an evolving tradition.
• Broder:

  "The old Fascist party reconstituted itself in 1946 as the Italian Social Movement... which endured throughout postwar history, which Giorgia Meloni herself joined in 1992, and which today's Fratelli d'Italia is the continuator of." ([05:08])

• He clarifies it’s not ‘Mussolini’s clones’—the party has adapted its form and rhetoric to survive, but key elements of the fascist tradition remain present.

3. Defining ‘Post-Fascism’

• [11:06] Broder adopts "post-fascism" for parties like Fratelli d’Italia, referencing their rhetorical and ideological evolution.
• The term denotes:
  • Explicit distancing from historical fascism’s crimes, but not a thorough rejection.
  • Hybridization with conservative and liberal ideas.
• Broder:

  “It's really a kind of an overcoming of the tradition of, but which merges elements of it into a sort of new mix.” ([11:21])

• He compares this with right-wing movements in other countries (Trump, Le Pen, Bolsonaro), noting similarities and convergence, especially around ethnic, anti-democratic, and anti-communist politics.

4. Manipulation of Historical Memory

• [16:42] Broder recounts a 2017 Fratelli d’Italia event in Trieste, where the party reframed historical narratives about the city’s contested borders to foster a sense of Italian victimhood and siege mentality.
• The party draws parallels between historic ethnic conflicts and current anxieties over immigration.
• Broder:

  “They've very successfully reframed historical memory around in the last couple of decades… the right has tried and quite successfully to reproduce that so that there's this idea of Italians as pure victims.” ([20:37])

• Increasingly, Italian commemorations pair Holocaust Remembrance Day with memorials for Italian victims of Yugoslav partisans, implying equivalencies that reduce Italian responsibility for fascist-era crimes.

5. History and Survival of the Italian Social Movement (MSI)

• [27:00] The MSI (Movimento Sociale Italiano) was explicitly fascist in origin, formed by survivors of Mussolini’s regime.
• They functioned as a parliamentary rear guard against communism and admired or allied with far-right, anti-communist regimes abroad (notably Franco’s Spain and Pinochet’s Chile).
• The MSI never enjoyed mass support, rarely exceeding 10% at the polls, but persisted through shifting alliances and anti-communist rhetoric.
• Attempts in the 1960s to integrate MSI into government sparked mass protests.
• The fall of the Soviet Union and the collapse of Italy's old parties in the 1990s allowed the MSI to rebrand and enter broad right-wing coalitions for the first time.

6. Transformation and Mainstreaming of Post-Fascism

• [40:48] The MSI evolved into Alleanza Nazionale under Gianfranco Fini, who distanced the party from explicit fascism, condemned aspects like anti-Semitism, but stopped short of rejecting the wider fascist tradition.
• Full repudiation was avoided to preserve party unity—public gestures were selectively critical but protective of historical legacy.
• Example: Fini’s 2003 visit to Israel and condemnation of Italy’s role in the Holocaust, which led extreme elements like Alessandra Mussolini to quit the party.
• In 2012, Fratelli d’Italia was re-founded, overtly reclaiming ties to the MSI, but with more rhetorical subtlety.

7. Giorgia Meloni’s Rhetoric and Political Strategy

• [50:36] As Prime Minister, Meloni adjusted her public tone, avoiding terms like ‘great replacement’ internationally, though party officials maintain such themes domestically.
• She cultivates a stateswoman image abroad, while the party’s more junior figures use familiar far-right tropes to rally the base.
• Broder:

  "What we've seen since Meloni was elected is... international media... saying: she's grown up, she's serious now, she's less bad than expected... while the ideas like ethnic substitution... are still regularly circulated by government figures." ([53:16])

• Meloni’s strategy is to shift the EU toward a right-wing, exclusionary vision from within, rather than seeking Italian exit.

8. Links to Militant and Violent Far Right Groups

• [56:52] While not characterized by widespread violence as in the past, there are connections between institutional parties and grassroot extremist groups.
• Neo-fascist organizations like CASA Pound and Lealta Azione run local social centers and have perpetrated attacks (notably during demonstrations or against migrants).
• Party figures participate in events with these groups and sometimes support their access to public spaces.
• Broder:

  “The institutional parties in government... often helped out these groups a lot in terms of... giving them spaces in which to organise, allowing them to hold events in... city hall owned spaces.” ([59:48])

• However, Broder sees no current mass organized violence akin to historical fascism, attributing this to low levels of social conflict.

9. Future of Italian Politics

• [64:15] With the decline of Berlusconi’s Forza Italia and a weak liberal opposition, Broder foresees a consolidating right-wing hegemony and low-intensity democracy.
• Italian citizenship remains ethnically defined; rights for children of immigrants are limited. But some counter-trends toward social liberalization also exist.
• Broder predicts ongoing mainstreaming and normalization—even European leadership—by the Italian far right, possibly exacerbated by broader international trends (including a potential Trump presidency in the US).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On political adaptation:

  “It’s not just a recreation of the past. The utopian and transformative horizon of fascism... is largely missing from the contemporary far right.”
  – David Broder, [06:30]

• On historical continuity:

  "It's a political tradition that has a continuity, genealogy... the activist hardcore has persisted through long defeats and is now... completing its long march out of marginalization."
  – David Broder, [09:44]

• On the function of memory politics:

  "The point is not to critically expose fascism or Nazism, but rather it has an anti-communist purpose... the political right is trying to... replace anti-fascism with a unity which is based on ethnicity."
  – David Broder, [23:45]

• On post-fascist mainstreaming:

  "They don't openly celebrate the historical heroes of fascism, but rather they talk about the victims of the anti-fascists."
  – David Broder, [49:52]

• On Meloni and the EU:

  “What we're instead seeing is that people like Meloni... are changing the European Union from within to make it more like the far right’s vision.”
  – David Broder, [54:10]

• On future prospects:

  "It’s hard to find particular reasons for political hope or to believe much in the strength of the left... [the far right] certainly hasn’t gone away."
  – David Broder, [72:25]

Key Timestamps

• 02:51 – Broder's personal academic background and reasons for studying Italian fascism
• 04:29 – Explanation of the “grandchildren” title & party genealogy
• 11:06 – Definition and international context of "post-fascism"
• 16:42 – The Trieste anecdote: manipulating memory and victimhood
• 27:00 – The MSI's history, strategies, and alliances
• 40:48 – How the far right mainstreamed itself (MSI to Alleanza Nazionale to Fratelli d’Italia)
• 50:36 – Meloni’s rhetorical shift and the party’s dual communication
• 56:52 – Contemporary links between mainstream parties and radical far-right groups
• 64:15 – Broder’s forecast for Italian politics and the far right’s prospects

Conclusion

David Broder’s interview provides a nuanced, critical analysis of how fascist traditions have persisted and adapted in Italy, culminating in the current open success of the far right. By tracing their historical trajectory, examining their manipulation of historical memory, and dissecting their strategic transformation, Broder demonstrates both the evolution and normalization of post-fascism. He warns of the fragility of liberal barriers and the risk of a more exclusionary, authoritarian vision gaining lasting power in Italy and potentially influencing Europe at large.