Podcast Summary: New Books Network – David Frankfurter on "Guide to the Study of Ancient Magic" (Brill, 2019)
Interview conducted by Caleb Zakrin
Release Date: February 19, 2026

Overview

This episode dives into the study of ancient magic through the lens of the comprehensive academic volume, "Guide to the Study of Ancient Magic," edited by David Frankfurter, professor of religion at Boston University. The discussion explores the book’s purpose as a critical resource for understanding how scholars approach and debate the language, stereotypes, sources, and cultural roles of magic across ancient societies, as well as what continued study of "magic" reveals about ritual, power, and social boundaries, past and present.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Conception and Aim of the Guide

• Purpose: To provide a rigorous scholarly foundation for studying ancient magic, correcting prior tendencies to use the term “magic” vaguely and polemically.

• Approach: The work avoids a single definition of magic, instead examining how various cultures describe ritual practices deemed illegitimate, ambiguous, or “other.”

  "Magic, it at one level is a general term for describing illegitimate or ambiguous rituals in any culture, on the perspective periphery of any culture..."
  —David Frankfurter (03:32)

• Structure: The guide is divided into sections on terminology and accusation (what is called 'magic'), source materials, aspects of ritual (agency in objects, writing, and incantations), and finally the theoretical dimension: if we are to talk about magic, what are we really talking about?

2. Challenges with the Term "Magic"

• Imprecision and Exoticism: “Magic” has been used both as a descriptor and as an accusation, often with “exotic, dangerous overtones” (03:13).

• Cultural Relativity: Every culture has a vocabulary to describe suspect or forbidden practices, but these terms tell us more about social boundaries than about specific types of ritual.

  "The use of this word does not reflect a greater or lesser series of popular practices. It simply means that there was a language of othering, a language of rejection."
  —David Frankfurter (12:09)

3. Language and Accusation: Case Studies in Israel and Rome

• Ancient Israel:

  • Terms like keshef denote impure or illegitimate ritual (10:24).
  • The official narrative—pure covenant, one God, one shrine—contrasts with the diverse actual practices detected in archaeological and textual evidence.
  • "Keshef" becomes a catch-all for practices outside the accepted norm.

• Ancient Rome:

  • Terms like superstitio (excessive, often foreign religiosity) and magia (from the Magi, the Persian priests) emphasize magic’s peripheral, suspect status.

  • Stereotypes heavily sexualized witch imagery.

    "The Roman literature has a very kind of overheated image of female witches... especially using the dead and controlling the dead and controlling young men. It was a very sexualized concept of magic."
    —David Frankfurter (13:24)

4. Material Sources for Studying Ancient Magic

• Egypt: Formularies and ritual manuals are abundant, some for “seeing gods,” cursing, sexual control, or healing (15:07).

• Jewish Sources: Rich caches of amulets (especially from synagogue genizas like Cairo), formularies, and ritual texts (16:09).

• Rome: Metal amulets, inscribed figurines, and protective objects found across the empire.

  "Each culture has different types of materials. Sometimes, as with Egypt, these are written by scribes... in other cases, they come from completely different areas of society."
  —David Frankfurter (18:50)

5. The Role of Objects, Writing, and Efficacy

• Power in Speech and Objects: The performative power of language (unknown names, commands), and the use of “weird” or boundary-crossing objects to confer potency (e.g., preterm fetuses). The “coefficient of weirdness” is important for magical effect (20:23).

  "In order to make something seem dark and dangerous and effective, you need something else. ...a black cat or the corpse of something. But then at least two people seem to have used preterm fetuses."
  —David Frankfurter (21:53)

6. Ongoing Scholarly Questions

• Defining Magic: Ongoing debate over whether "magic" is a useful term distinct from "ritual."

• Efficacy and Agency: How is the ‘success’ (or perceived efficacy) of ritual constructed through language, objects, intent, and social function?

• Continuities Today: Ritual-like behavior in modern contexts (e.g., sports rituals, protective amulets for truckers) raises questions about how “magical” agency persists.

  "So much of magic and so much of the rituals in these formularies has to do with constructing something that works. But what do we mean by work? And how does working come from language or from objects?"
  —David Frankfurter (24:26)

7. Critique of Evolutionary Models

• Traditional view: Magic → Religion → Science, as articulated by James Frazer in The Golden Bough.

• Frankfurter’s critique: Such a lens is outdated, ignores the complexity of practices, and minimizes the vital, ongoing roles of so-called magical thinking.

  "Magic isn’t an issue of causality. Nowhere in the guide do we even give it the time of day... But every culture has what we might call magical practices."
  —David Frankfurter (30:07)

8. Ancient Magic and Popular Culture

• Lasting Fascination: Popular culture often deploys tropes from ancient magic—amulets, witches, curses—for thrills and to define danger/outsider status.

• Caution: Such narratives can carry racist or misogynistic undertones, reflecting and perpetuating social othering.

  "For a lot of evangelical Christians, the magic of Harry Potter books, for example, is dangerous... Magic is something to be avoided... in the history of tales and legends of magic on the periphery, there has been a tendency sometimes for it to be frankly racist or even misogynist."
  —David Frankfurter (33:28)

9. Personal Reflections & Favorite Magicians

• Frankfurter’s favorite: Not Merlin, but Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, with its deep sense of agency in objects and mythic resonance.

  "They capture something about the power in objects, the efficacy of objects, that is just much more kind of exotic..."
  —David Frankfurter (36:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the imprecision of terminology:
  "Magic is a very polemical word... always endows its subject with kind of exotic, dangerous overtones."
  —Frankfurter (03:13)

• On studying ritual efficacy:
  "Does that point to certain ways in which we live, all of us, even today, in a world where a lot of things are working on us all the time? ...Are we actually kind of hooked into and working with a world of agencies and objects that have their own Intentions?"
  —Frankfurter (25:17)

• On caution with stereotypes in pop culture:
  "We love to think about the caricatures, the exotic stereotypes of witches on the periphery... but we do have to be careful about what the caricatures, the stereotypes are that are being turned into fun movies."
  —Frankfurter (33:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to Frankfurter and project conception: 02:12–04:45
• Debates over the term 'magic' and book structure: 03:13–08:05
• Notable contributions and new insights: 08:23–09:56
• Ancient Israel and Rome—language and stereotypes: 10:24–14:33
• Textual sources and material culture of magic: 15:07–19:51
• Weird and powerful objects in magic: 20:23–23:34
• Modern questions: efficacy, ritual, agency: 24:15–28:27
• Critique of Frazer and evolutionary theories: 29:04–31:45
• Pop culture, stereotypes, and magic: 32:38–35:35
• Favorite "magician" and reflections on Tolkien: 36:34–38:02

Conclusion

Frankfurter’s conversation offers a nuanced, critical entryway into the academic study of ancient magic, emphasizing the complexity and relativity of the term, the diversity of sources and practices, and the continuing relevance of ritual, agency, and symbolic boundaries in both ancient and modern settings. The episode is essential listening for anyone curious about how scholarship treats the slippery, enchanting category of “magic,” and how our fascination with it persists today.