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A
Go beyond the verses and achieve a deeper understanding of Scripture with the Rebind Study Bible App. An audio experience of the Bible interwoven with expert commentary. The Rebind Study Bible App reads Scripture to you, enriching your comprehension with insights from the world renowned New International commentary on the Old and the New Testament in an accessible podcast episode format.
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Be not therefore anxious for the morrow. Matthew chapter 6. Each day will have its troubles, but by God's grace they can be survived.
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A
Use the Rebind Study Bible App's chat function to ask questions and get answers in real time. That's thought provoking discussion and analysis rooted in decades of research and wisdom from more than 40 scholars at your fingertips. The Rebind Study Bible App is a new way to experience the Bible with enhanced depth, at your own pace in the moments you have. Search the Apple App Store for Rebind Study Bible or go to rebind app.com newbooks network for a free seven day trial. Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Production. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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C
Hello everyone and welcome to nbn. I am your host Holly Gattery and I am really excited to be joined today by author David Giuliano, whose book the Upending of Wendell Forbes is his newest novel published in 2025 by the wonderful Latitude 46. Welcome to the show, David.
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B
Oh, it's Great to be here.
- [02:31]
C
It's great to have you. This is a read that I think should be on everybody's holiday reading list, whether it's this year or next year. It gave me all the warm and fuzzies and I am really looking forward to talking to you about it. But first for our audience, I'd like to introduce you to a little bit more about this fantastic story and about David. So Set in the remote northern town of 26 Mile House, the novel follows Wendell and Ruby Forbes, an aging couple grappling with memory loss, isolation and the slow encroachment of Ruby's possible dementia. When a fierce blizzard descends on the town, eight strangers take refuge in their home. An indigenous Colombian refugee and his family, a sleep consultant, a teenage activist and her 10 year old gay half brother and the young man on an unexpected journey as the storm rages outside. What unfolds inside is a tender and surprising exploration of intergenerational hope, grief and the quiet power of human connection with a lynx, a foul mouthed raven and an unforgettable and unforgettable characters, both human and otherwise. This novel is at once funny, wise and full of heart. Giuliano's storytelling has been compared to Miriam Tay's and Elizabeth Strout in its emotional insight and narrative. More David Giuliano is the author of the Undertaking of Billy Buffon, winner of the 2022 Bressani Prize, the best selling Postcards from the Valley, and the cancer memoir It's Good to Be Here. He lives on the north shore of Lake Superior. David, again, welcome to the show. My first question for you is where did this story start for you? What was the little nugget that sprouted this really wonderful tale?
- [04:14]
B
Well, it, it began, I was 62 when I started writing it. It took me about three years altogether. But at 62 I was starting to ask what is the fourth quarter of life about? I mean I, I think of life in one way you can look at is in quarters. You know, you're living 20, kind of growing up, maturing, learning things. 20 to 40 you're doing the family scene and establishing a career. 40 to 60 you're, you know, you know, accomplishment and aiming for some solidification in your life and feeling a sense of a con, you know, feeling like you've done something worthwhile, I hope. And then at 60 I, I started saying so what's it mean? And I, I asked the question is what does it mean to be an elder? And I don't mean capital E like an indigenous elder, but elder as someone who is not just a senior citizen, you know, who gets a discount at shoppers drug mart, but what does it mean to, to, to grow old with dignity and, and wisdom and, and care. And so I, I started this story about Wendell and Ruby kind of imagining 20 years ahead of where I was. So at 62, that was the question I was asking is what does it mean, you know, and what gives meaning to growing older and what would give me meaning? And so I imagine these people who are 15, 20 years older than me and living their life and what that might look like.
- [05:46]
C
So one of the things I loved about Wendell and Ruby is that despite the fact that they are older than me, have a very different life than me. I deeply felt Ruby's grief over her family, her son and her grandchildren and not being able to be around them. The poet Tim Bowling introduced me to a term premature grief. So I'm in kind of this, this the thick, juicy broth of parenthood right now while my kids are at home, they're young. But Ruby's grief over her children, or children grandchildren, not being around her was so touching and so real to me. Like cross generational divides of that loneliness and the idea of them living in this house alone and then having all these strangers come into their lives, it felt really beautiful and not forced. My question for you is about managing so many different characters. So if we can start on a smaller scale and just say Wendell and Ruby, let's start with them. You've created, manage a whole cast of characters who are very different in this story, in this novel. So, but I want to start just on a smaller scale with Wendell and Ruby. Where did Wendy, Wendy, I'm conflating names here. Where did Wendell come from and where did Ruby come from? And then having this really tender relationship between these two people. We're also like, there's, there's stuff that's, I don't want to give anything away. There's a really cool twist in their relationship and stuff is very gradually revealed. But you have these two characters who feel that they are a character together. Their marriage is this character, both of them. But they're also very distinct and I'd love to hear about again where they came from.
- [07:40]
B
Well, a number of things kind of shaped who there. And first of all, like I said, it was imagining 15, 20 years ahead. I wish I was more like Wendell. And I feel really, I, I admire him and, and I'm in love with, with Ruby. And you know, I, I, I have been married for a long time and So I have some sense of the, the intertwining of saplings growing into a single tree and the, and the awareness of how hard it is when one partner dies or becomes cognitively impaired in some ways. So I, I guess I was just looking at what, what are the, what are the boundaries? And of course I, I have older people in my life that I look to and admire, but a lot of it is, is, it's, it's fantasy in a way in that, you know, who, who would I like to be like and who would I like to be with when I'm 80 years old? And what would, what would that relationship look like and how would it unfold? And you know, I don't want to make it kind of like unbelievable, but. But I also feel like that there is a tenderness with aging that, that, yeah, I find very moving to watch older couples who have, have grown together and, and have a, have a kind of tender foundation that, that shapes their lives and, and their, their relationship with others. You mentioned about the kids being far away. And I want to say, you know, it's a real reality where I live. Like, it's hard for young people to stay here and find good work and sort of pursue careers. They often move away. But I think it is a factor of our current culture that we're fairly nomadic. Like we, or at least we set up not necessarily where our family is like a career and, and work seem to be the determining factors more so than family relationships. And so I think a lot of people will identify with having kids in, you know, South America or Japan or wherever. At least other far away in, in parts of Canada.
- [10:08]
C
Yeah, I hug my babies pretty tight after reading that. And I always promised myself I'd never be like my very controlling Iranian father, but I was like, don't ever leave me. Which probably just made them want to leave me more.
- [10:25]
B
I won't identify the reader because I don't have permission, but I will say that one reader started the novel on an airplane flight to go visit a grandchildren, to meet them for the first time in another country. And she said she was sobbing the whole way on the plane, you know, having read the first chapter, because she could really identify with that distance and wanting to be closer.
- [10:51]
C
It is hard, but I mean, it's also such. It's a powerful. It's very moving, it's very tender. But it's also a really funny book. And I do want to talk to you about the humor in this book because Wendell to me was hilarious. And I mean, the situation was hilarious. But before and when I say the situation, I understand listeners don't know what I'm talking about yet. I will get there, but I do just want to circle back to that question and it's something I'm really interested in as a writer, but I think that I really want readers to have an appreciation for that is how difficult it can be to juggle a bunch of characters. I mean, you don't just have two. You have a bunch of characters who are to various extents in the book. And I would love for you to talk about that, about how you manage their on stage time.
- [11:38]
B
Maybe it's just the way my brain works, but I, you know, I want to populate a story with the interaction of, of people coming from this particular one of strangers coming together from very diverse backgrounds and experiences as a way of. Well, you know, here's the thing. I. I've like, you're. You're aware, I'm sure, that we live in a time of a lot of despair and kind of dystopian post apocalyptic writing is, Is really popular and I read a lot of it. I, I find it exciting to imagine a new world. But partly I was writing, asking the question is, is. Is. Is. Does the world have to be destroyed? Is. Is there even a small glimmer of hope? And so in some ways I was gathering characters, strangers who were caught by this blizzard into one place as kind of like a little, a little crucible of light in the midst of all of this darkness. And I wanted, I wanted, I needed a variety of characters to, to make that. That possible. But I also, I just didn't. I enjoy people. I enjoy, you know, I, I was just reading Thomas King's new book, Aliens on the Moon, and what, what makes it really funny is imagining watching human beings and if, if we can just step back and look at ourselves sometimes. It's, it's. We're, we're. We are kind of quirky people, but you know, we get so caught up in the way things should be or shouldn't be. And so I love, I love quirky characters in my, in my novels. The undertaking of Billy Buffoni. He's, he's a really odd guy and you know, he shows up very briefly in this one and. Yeah, I just, I love quirky characters. I think we're, we're funny by nature in some ways. Funny in a. A. Not in a joke sense, but funny in a. I guess a more tender. A tender way.
- [13:55]
C
So let's talk about the, the tenderness that I feel is at the heart of one of the most amusing parts of the book, and that's Ruby has a foam. She's been given a phone by her son who's leaving for Japan, Ruby and Wendell. But Ruby really commandeers the foam because she wants to be tuned into when the family, her son and his wife and her grandchildren land and she wants to be in touch with them. And she's, you know, carrying around this phone. Not for the same reason that my teenager may carry around the phone, but it's because she wants to be connected. And I suppose I can say this, it's not really giving anything away. It happens pretty early in the book. But she doesn't realize that she's on Facebook Live. And Wendell is a writer who has just released a novel and one of. And you know, so he's been, he's given permission to his publicist to take over social media accounts because he's not really interested in doing any of this, which I relate to. And it turns out that this live stream of their lives is getting a lot of attention on the book. And so there's this, there's this morally gray area that's happening too. And I was wondering if you could. Because it's really funny, but it's like cringy funny. It's like when you're watching a movie and somebody's doing something really embarrassing and you have, you have like secondhand embarrassment for them. Because dear listeners, when I say it's, it's taking a recording of them doing almost everything. I mean, almost everything. You're not necessarily seeing everything, but you know what's going on. And I was wondering if you could talk about that, like about the humor in this book and the lightness in this book. And I mean, I thought it was funny to play into that idea that let's say boomers don't really know how to use technology that well because that's of course not a. Not true across the board. I have, I know people that age that are more technologically savvy than I am, but in the case of Ruby and Wendell, they really didn't know what was going on. And it was, it was funny without being demeaning. And I would love for you to talk about that balance and about this whole idea of a live recording and really just how you approach humor in your books because there was so much wonderful humor throughout.
- [16:17]
B
I, right away, I should say that my 87 year old mother is a whiz on like she, she gets the family gathering together on, on messenger once A week. And you know, she, she. So it, it isn't just an age thing. Wendell, Wendell's grouch about it. He, he's a big fan of Wendell Berry, who wrote why I Will Never Buy a Computer in Newark, the New York Times. And, and he's, he's, he's almost a complete Luddite, but has made some small concessions to uh, to, to his publisher. But yeah, they're, they're. And, and Ruby just does not want to miss a call. So she's carrying this around for all with her all the time. And she doesn't realize that she's, you know, live streaming 247 and she gathers some followers. My, Actually the part I right at the beginning is there. The phone's on a tripod and it's on her dresser and they're sleeping and insomniacs are watching it, finding it very comforting to watch these old people sleep. And you know, that, that initiates some of the relationship with a couple of the characters in the novel. But I'm trying to tell it without, you know, spoiling the story because most people haven't read it, it's fairly new. But yeah, they, they, they end up live streaming almost every aspect of life, including their romantic life. Wendell turns the phone around at least so it's just sound at that point. But and, and then when they, when the strangers gather, many of them have, have witnessed the live stream and so they, they have some conversation about it. That's pretty funny. The other part that is, is plays a, a big role in the story is the live stream of a conversation that Wendell and Ruby have about go, you know, going on living or not and, and whether they would access maid and and those kind of things. And I, I, I felt very moved writing that short, short scene of, you know, it ends he's saying, you know, don't cry. You're crying too. And you know, just that kind of thing that, that, you know, I imagine people as they get older consider like what, what, what, you know, what. At what point does, does life become more of a burden than a joy? And I, I'm not a, I, I have no philosophy or theory on Maiden. Certainly hope to, to die in, in the most natural ways when the time comes for me. But I also understand that, you know, it's a, it's a question that people are asking. I, I recently was invited by Zoom to attend right before a de. Ended her life. And they'd asked me to offer a prayer and I did. And I read Mary Oliver's When Death comes the poem. And it was a very beautiful, beautiful moment. But so I don't know. Sorry. We were talking about the funny parts of the novel and that that wasn't a funny part. But I just realized, I guess I feel like that there's this, you know, wholeness of life that, that some people are witnessing in a very vulnerable way without Wendell and Ruby knowing, and that. That they become more and more attractive. The morale, morality issue is the. The person who's been assigned to market Wendell's writing is asking, you know, can I. Can I be sharing this without them knowing and could that happen accidentally? And I really enjoy the scene with both of the partners in the publishing business. The one who's sort of go for, we have the movie rights or something. And his ex wife who also publishes and says, you know, he's not. He doesn't know he's doing this and we shouldn't be showing it.
- [21:03]
A
The holidays are coming up and that means friends and family are going to be in your house. Is your house ready? I know mine wasn't. So I went to Wayfair to make sure that I had everything I needed to entertain and put these people up. During the holiday season, Wayfair is the place to shop for all things you need for your home, from sofas to spatulas. And listen to this. Starting October 30th, you can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. You can get up to 70% off. Wayfair will ship your items fast and free. Now, in my case, I need to do betting. My betting was shot. So what did I do? Well, I went to Wayfair and I bought some new sheets and pillowcases. I also bought a comforter simply because I thought it was beautiful. It was very easy to order them. The price was right, shipping was free, and they came well before I needed them. So don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Sale ends December 7th.
- [22:04]
C
It was an interesting conversation. And you know, as a book publicist myself, I was like, well, this is great for publicity, but as a human, I was like, I would hate if this was happening to me. And absolutely somebody should let them know this is happening immediately. So they stopped this. The fact that it was ever. I mean, that's a conversation I think I'd have with myself in, in five seconds. Or less so it was interesting seeing this other publicist needs longer to, to come to that conclusion and while. And, and trying to understand things from his perspective. So I really, I enjoyed that. I remember that conversation in the book. I mean it was, it was beautiful. This is a book that made me laugh, it made me cry. There's so much of the warm and fuzzies in it. Like I said in the beginning, I'm thinking I'm going to take a pause from asking questions, kind of a pause and because I'm going to ask you right now if you would read to us from your book because I'd really like our listeners to hear, hear, hear the book so they can see what we're talking about.
- [23:07]
B
Okay, so this little section is after the night of blizzard. But the, the. The power is still off and the. The house is full of strangers there camped out in the living room by the fireplace to stay warm. We got Alejandro from Colombia, an indigenous man, his partner Sarah, who's an environmentalist, and their daughter Bella, Lindsay and her half her stepbrother Caleb. And they're all, they're all in the house. And Wendell has moved off the mattress with Ruby by the fireplace to sleep in a recliner because the. Lindsay and Caleb arrived in the middle of the blizzard and were hypothermic. And so there they slept with Ruby on the mattress in the living room. So this is from a chapter called we got More Turkey than Peanut Butter and Jam. Wendell wakes up in the recliner and opens his eyes just long enough to check the time on his watch. He's pleasantly surprised to see that he slept until after 9 o' clock in the morning, an unheard of phenomenon. It's been light for nearly an hour and he slept through it. He feels genuinely rested for the first time in months, maybe years. He closes his eyes and basks in the blessing of a good night's sleep. Maybe that's what being dead is like, he thinks. Waking up after a good night's sleep. After Lindsay and the boy Caleb, that's his name were tucked in next to Ruby, Wendell expects, expected to ride out the rest of the night listening to the wind and everything and envying the slumber of his companions. Yet with no effort at all, he had drifted off into an untroubled sleep of his own, complete with the lovely but unremembered dreams. At this stage of life, a night of good dreamless sleep is enough. His days of parsing them for meaning revealed by his unconscious are over. Now he prefers to leave the dreams to untangle themselves on their own. I still shuddered. Wendell can hear people whispering and moving around him quietly in the chilly room. His nose is poked out at the top of his cocoon and it is cold. The ambient temperature and the absence of mechanical sounds no humming refrigerator, no furnace blowing, no morning news on the radio, no gurgling of the coffee maker confirm that the electricity has not been restored. But wait. Glory. The unmistakable scent of cough, scent of coffee sneaks up his nose. Wendell's olfactory senses vibrate like a happy high C tuning fork. Coffee. Could it be There it is, the familiar sound of a mug being set down on the table beside his chair. A gentle kiss brushes his forehead. Wendell smiles. Life is good. Still tipped back in the recliner, he opens his eyes. Buenas dias, Hermoso. Alejandro grins. Ruby says you like to start your day off with coffee and a kiss. You're welcome. He waves off Wendell's gratitude. Donana. Wendell raises the chair, holds the mug under his nose, and inhales the bold scents of the Fair trade Peruvian coffee. Meadow and Paige shipped them a case right from the community plantation. Kindness tingled on his forehead where Alejandra had kissed him. Hermoso, Ruby calls from the kitchen. I know buenos dias means good day, but. Right? But what is hermosa, beautiful? Buenas dias, Hermoso, sarah translates from Big Blue, where she's curled up nursing Bella. Good morning, beautiful. Handsome Alejandro clarifies. Good morning, handsome. Wendell animates his eyebrows like a silent movie star and lifts the warm mug with both his hands to his lips. He sips and sighs. And I forgot to mention, Wendell has been silenced by the angels, so he doesn't talk through most of the novel.
- [27:22]
C
Yeah, that is something I was going to ask you about because I was going to say listeners, if you didn't catch that. Wendell hasn't actually said a word, so we're getting a lot of his interior thoughts, but he actually doesn't speak a lot. This is a really important part of the book that I am astonished at myself for not mentioning. Let's talk about Wendell, because Wendell is a man of faith and his faith is what I would consider a very ecumenical kind of faith. It's a faith that I don't feel that would alienate anyone and is very gentle and loving. So I would love for you to talk about Wendell's faith and Wendell, as I will say, like a religious individual. I'm just saying I will say that because again, I feel like it's ecumenical and that while he certainly has A religious position. It's not. I did. As someone who was brought up Muslim, I did not find it like I was alienated by this position at all. I found it very lovely. And how. And how that maybe relates a little bit to your own life, if you feel like sharing about that.
- [28:31]
B
Well, sure. I mean, the thing that Wendell and I have in common is that we were both United Church ministers in a small, isolated town. Me for 30 years. I think Wendell was around the same amount, but he's been retired a long time.
- [28:47]
C
And.
- [28:48]
B
And so I think one of the things I, you know, I was talking about what was inspiring or what the seed that began the novel was, was wondering about what it means to be an elder. And I think one of the things that Wendell practices is curiosity and about the universe and faith and transcendence and an openness that. That I. I aspire to my own life. So that. That's part of it. The other thing is, is that the. The. I don't know if he. He perceives that the angels have demanded that he be silent. Others would say he's taken a vow of silence of some kind and only talks to Ruby because she insists. But I would. I. I go to the powwow at Big Anishinaabe, which is the nearest first nation to. To where we live, and they always have the elders speak at the beginning at the Grand Entry. And I notice how often they talk about the importance of listening to the next generations who are coming up in the community. And, and that's one of the. One of the characteristics I feel of being a good elder is to listen. And this was kind of a playful way. I had Wendell listening to the people who've taken refuge in. In their house during the blizzard, these strangers who've come, and he wants to. Wants to hear them and, And. And get to know them that way. And. And it leads to some. Some funny interactions as well, because he's. He's determined to. To keep to it.
- [30:38]
C
I found one of the funniest parts of the book, and I'm sorry if I'm giving something away, but it's just a beautiful little scene where Wendell decides that he wants to go to the high school where they're having, like, a Climb for the Future rally. You know what I'm talking about? He's like, I'm gonna go support these young people fighting for a better future. Like, I think it's like Climate Fridays where the students walk out of the school to, you know, protest against climate change and to create climate change awareness and Activism. And it's, I think it's so important and so cool. So he heads on down to school and, you know, he's, again, he has this vow of silence and he's hanging out with these kids and, you know, he's having fun with them and almost being playful. Like, the kids are very receptive, and I believe he was, like, barking like a dog at some point and the kids were too. Like, there's this whole scene going on. And then he realizes when the kids go get, like, ushered back in by the principal, that he was just standing with the smokers. And it's, he hasn't had the protest at all. The protest is a little bit further down. It's just one kid out there protesting. It's hilarious.
- [31:47]
B
Yeah, I, I really like the, the two encounters, like, with the accidental meeting with the smokers and the howling and kibitzing around, which I, I, I thought was, you know, it was funny for me to imagine. And then the more tender accompaniment of the one person who's Lindsay, who's at, who ends up at the house in the blizzard, who is who. Who feels very lonely in, in her desire to, to do something good for the world and, and for the planet and kind of an outsider and a, Like, I think a lot of teens could identify with that feeling, like they, they don't fit in. And so I like the juxtaposition of the playfulness and the more poignant tenderness or gentleness of their walking side by side.
- [32:49]
C
Yeah, it was such a beautiful and fun scene. And I really do want to impress upon readers just like, if you're, if you're looking for a book right now that, dare I say, almost feels healing, because for me, it was, it was, it made me think, it made me question myself and what I believe in and who I am. But I ultimately felt like it talks about very serious issues and existential issues that most of us try to avoid. It confronts us with them, but also offers us comfort in each other and in community and the power of coming together. And I mean, it was just, like I said, really moving. And again, such a perfect book for the holiday season and again any season. But this does take place in the middle of the snowstorm or at least part of it. So if you want one of those, like, reading a book by the fire with tea and, you know, wrapped up in a blanket, this is, this is your read. My final question for you, David, is what are you working on now? Because no pressure, but I can't wait to read it.
- [33:55]
B
Oh, well, thank you I am, I'm working on a story. Another takes place in 26 Mile House. I don't think I'm giving very much away that I live in Marathon, which if you run a marathon, it's 26 miles. And so my, my stories tend to take place in the fictionalized version of this community. And um, the, the one I'm working on now is about a guy who grew up giving 140% to succeeding in the NHL, but he doesn't. And he returns to town and just kind of what, what, what. How that unfolds. And in some ways it began with the, the idea of the, if, if you know Bible stories at all, there's a story about the prodigal son who takes his fortune and goes off and then returns home. And I often thought, so what happened? What was life like when he, he failed and came home? And so it's unfolding now as, as I get going. The, the big challenge is we have to find the. It's going to be part of the trilogy of the three. And so it's. We have the upending of Wendell Ford's which, you know, he, his life is upended and there is kind of an upending and the undertaking of Billy Buffoni, which is a funeral director, so takes the word from there. But there's a double meaning as well about the, his undertaking as a teenager. And then I'll have to think of something that'll. That'll fit with Danny Dunford who is the hockey player who's returned to town.
- [35:40]
C
Well, I want to give a shout out to editors like the wonderful Randall Perry. I'm not sure if he worked with Randall on this.
- [35:47]
B
Yes, how could I forget? I have a funny story, but when he was at the grocery store, we were working. We went back and forth a million times. It was supposed to be called okay, Boomer, but you know, heather, at latitude 46.0, no one will find your book because it's always if you Google, okay, Boomer, there's a million things. So. And they wanted it to kind of go with the undertaking. So we were back and forth with what can we put. And he was at the grocery store and someone knocked over a cart of tangerines at something thing. And he said the thing that went up. Somebody said something. Oh, we've really upended that thing. He emailed Heather and I right away. How about up at the upending of Wendell Forbes? And believe me, that's the least of the things he, he is. He was just great to work with. I apologize for not mentioning him sooner because he is, he has made the book much better.
- [36:41]
C
Now, Randall Perry, shout out to the wonderful Randall Perry. If you can get this person as an editor, you should. I, I truly believe that an editor can make or break a novel. But yeah, I was going to say if you have a question about what title you use, ask your editor. My editors always have the best.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah, well, that's what we were working on.
- [37:01]
C
Yeah, exactly. Just, just send, send Randall out into the world again and wait for something to inspire him. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for talking to me, David. Everyone. You can get David's book, the Upending of Wendell forbes published with Latitude 46 anywhere books are bought or borrowed. Again, David, thank you so much for joining me today on mdn.
- [37:21]
B
Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been great.