New Books Network - Sociology

Episode: David McCrone, "Changing Scotland: Society, Politics and Identity" (Edinburgh UP, 2025)

Host: Matt Dawson
Guest: David McCrone (Emeritus Professor of Sociology, University of Edinburgh)
Date: February 3, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Matt Dawson interviews David McCrone about his latest book, Changing Scotland: Society, Politics and Identity, which explores the profound transformations Scotland has experienced across society, politics, and national identity from the postwar period to the present. Building on a lifetime of sociological research on Scotland, McCrone challenges assumptions about identity, nationalism, and the drivers of change, offering an empirically rich sociological analysis rather than a simplistic nationalist or cultural narrative.

Major Discussion Points and Key Insights

1. McCrone’s Sociological Trajectory and Approach

• Personal backstory: McCrone recounts his pathway into sociology, emphasizing the serendipitous nature of many academic careers and reflecting on the virtues and vices of the field.
• Motivation for the book: Inspired by a half-century studying Scotland, McCrone seeks to connect empirical data on class, industrial and demographic change, and culture to an accurate, nuanced understanding of contemporary Scottish society.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 07:47): "It's been a bit of a love affair with sociology. I can get really boring about the virtues of sociology and also some of the vices."
• Scotland as a sociological outlier: Scotland is discussed as an "understated nation"—a society organized around civil institutions and identity, not having ever fit neatly into the classic nation-state model.

2. The Centrality of Civil Society

• Civil vs. political society: McCrone explains why civil society is the key to understanding Scotland, tracing the enduring legacy of Scottish institutions (education, religion, law) which survived 1707 Union, distinguishing Scotland from colonial or conquered partners like Ireland.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 12:58): "Scotland was never a colony. It was a junior partner in British imperialism."
• Persistence of Scottish identity: Despite integration, Scots maintained dual Scottish-British identity, taking advantage of the Empire, but always seeing the Union as a marriage of convenience.

3. Structural Changes: "Warfare Welfare Nexus" and the Seeds of Divergence

• Postwar consensus and the breakdown: McCrone identifies the “warfare-welfare nexus”—the link between Scottish involvement in British military ventures and the post-1945 welfare state—as the glue holding Union together until the 1970s.
• Oil discovery and Thatcherism: The discovery of North Sea oil in the late 1960s, followed by the rise of Margaret Thatcher, fueled the sense of a "democratic deficit" in Scotland, as political differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK widened.
  • Memorable Moment (30:40): 1988 Scottish Cup Final Red Cards Protest – McCrone recounts how fans waved red cards at Margaret Thatcher to signal her unwelcome presence, an event illustrating the growing public expression of Scottish difference.

4. Demographic and Migration Trends

• Migration reversal: Scotland, historically marked by high emigration, shifted towards being a destination for migrants from the rest of the UK and internationally from the 1990s, paralleling global demographic changes (e.g., smaller households, expansion of women’s opportunities).
  • Quote (David McCrone, 38:19): "The price for the incomer is low... It's relatively easy to be accepted, relatively. Didn't mean to say that we didn't have our racists, of course we do. But the acceptance apparatus, if you like, is there because over a thousand years we've had to accommodate people not like us, whoever us might be."
• Civic identity and inclusion: McCrone emphasizes Scotland’s historically civic, rather than ethnic, approach to nationhood—contrasting with debates in Wales, Ireland, and Quebec about language and belonging.

5. Class and Cultural Identity

• Class mythos vs. material reality: The Scottish self-image as egalitarian and working-class ("all Jock Tamson's bairns") persists even as objective class structures align closely with England (outside the South East). National narrative and self-identification often diverge from material reality, with many Scots self-identifying as working class regardless of actual occupation.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 51:47): "Class is a cultural thing as well as a material thing... how class operated, the same material changes were happening north and south of the border. But they were fed through a different prism of understanding."
• E.P. Thompson and the meaning of class: The cultural component of class (consciousness, not merely structure or action) shapes both national and class identities in Scotland.

6. From "Cultural Cringe" to Cultural Optimism

• Reframing Scottish culture: Following political scientist Tom Nairn’s framework, McCrone rejects the simplistic view that “cultural cringe” or its optimistic reversal alone explain political transformation. Instead, he argues for sociological analysis that sees culture as mediated through civil society and social structures.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 82:15): "My argument is logically that cannot be, that you can't have the same explanation for completely different things, and there must be something wrong."
• Role of civil society: Civil activism was crucial in the push for devolution and the eventual establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.

7. National Identity: Survey Evidence and Referendum Effects

• Evolving identity classifications: Before the 1970s, Scots were rarely asked about national identity. By employing “dual identity” measurement (equally Scottish and British, etc.), McCrone’s research finds most Scots prioritized Scottishness but did not deny Britishness.
• Referendum Decade (2011–2021):
  • 2014 Independence Referendum: Transformed national identity, crystallizing previously nuanced identities into sharper political choices.
  • 2016 Brexit Referendum: Deepened divergence, as a decisive Scottish Remain vote was overridden by an English majority, reinforcing Scottish-European and pro-independence sentiment.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 68:50): "If you force people to choose A or B, you may be shocked at the outcome. And that's what happened."
• Impacts: Dual referendums catalyzed political realignment—national identity now more closely linked to constitutional positions than before.

8. Sovereignty and Political Division

• Sovereignists vs. Unionists: McCrone and colleagues’ research identifies two major blocs: “Sovereignists” (about 40%—support self-determination, not necessarily independence) and “Unionists” (about 15%—favour UK sovereignty). The Labour party remains internally split between these groups, while SNP and Conservatives align with one or the other.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 73:22): "Sovereignty were people who believed that people in Scotland were the source of sovereignty. But there were also people... who disputed that and perfectly reasonable thing to do."
• Policy complexity: Views on where sovereignty should be exercised (e.g., welfare, agriculture) often cross political and party lines.

9. Contemporary Trends and Looking Ahead

• Political fragmentation: The rise of right-wing populism (e.g., Reform party), a weakening SNP, and changes in the symbolism of national flags, all point to a dynamic, unpredictable future.
• Caution against prediction: McCrone warns that sociology is about explanation, not prediction, and stresses the importance of understanding unintended consequences and the need to study phenomena—like populism—that may lie outside one’s personal sympathies.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 92:36): "Sociologists and social scientists generally are very bad at prediction. But prediction is not what we do."
• Embedded meanings in symbols: McCrone stresses that symbols like the Saltire carry deep, ingrained meaning that can’t be changed at will by new political actors.
  • Quote (David McCrone, 94:55): “The one thing social science tells us, and anthropology in particular, there's embedded meaning in symbols. And you can't just, oh, we're going to call it something different and it doesn't work because there are a host of expressions dragged behind it and it's imbued with quite different meanings.”

10. Research in Progress

• Next steps: Inspired by Irish journalists who wrote pro and anti-unification arguments, McCrone plans a sociologically grounded pamphlet weighing the cases for and against Scottish independence, as well as research on populism as a variant of nationalism.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On accidental sociologists:

  • David McCrone (09:09): "We are accidental sociologists, but not prone to accident, I hope."

• On the union as marriage of convenience:

  • David McCrone (17:37): "...it was a marriage of convenience, a marriage de raison, that is, there was nothing. It wasn't a conquest, it wasn't an agreement forever. It was a deal which would last for a time."

• On demographic convergence and civic identity:

  • David McCrone (38:19): "So the kind of territorial sense of being Scottish was built in now...the price for the incomer is low...relatively easy to be accepted, relatively."

• On class as culture:

  • David McCrone (51:47): "Class is a cultural thing as well as a material thing...how class operated, the same material changes were happening north and south of the border. But they were fed through a different prism of understanding."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• McCrone's Sociological Journey and Scottish Trajectory: 01:43–09:09
• The Importance of Civil Society and Scotland’s National Distinctiveness: 10:41–29:18
• Warfare-Welfare Nexus and the Roots of Divergence: 29:18–36:05
• Migration & Civic Identity: 36:05–45:15
• Class and Self-Image: 49:32–58:45
• National Identity and Referendum Effects: 58:45–71:54
• Sovereignists vs. Unionists: 72:37–80:27
• The Role of Culture and Critique of "Cultural Explanations": 80:27–91:04
• Recent Changes and Caution Against Prediction: 92:33–100:38
• Current and Future Work: 100:47–104:37

Closing Thoughts

David McCrone’s analysis cautions against reductive explanations of Scottish change, instead urging attention to the complex interplay of social structure, civil society, culture, identity, and politics. His nuanced view resists nationalist teleology and the temptation to see political shifts as the outcome of destiny or cultural awakening, instead anchoring Scottish transformations in the sociological dynamics of modernity, demographic change, and institutional legacies.

Recommended for anyone interested in Scottish society, nationalism, sociological research on identity, and the contemporary politics of the UK and Europe.