Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Deepa Das Acevedo, The War on Tenure (Cambridge UP, 2025)
Host: Michael Lamagna
Date: October 3, 2025
Guest: Deepa Das Acevedo, Associate Professor of Law, Emory University

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep dive into The War on Tenure by Deepa Das Acevedo, exploring the realities, misperceptions, and complex dynamics of tenure in American higher education. The conversation reframes tenure as a labor practice, distinct from (but connected to) academic freedom, and examines legislative attacks, employment security, faculty motivations, and needed reforms. The episode aims to demystify common beliefs about tenure and discuss its value as well as potential improvements, situated in a rapidly changing academic and political context.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Deepa Das Acevedo’s Background and Interest in Tenure

• Anthropologist and Legal Scholar: Deepa describes her interdisciplinary path: “I am a dual credentialed anthropologist of law... my work has largely focused on labor and employment issues” (02:50).
• From Gig Economy to Tenure: Her interest in tenure grew from a focus on employment law, including extensive study of worker classification and the gig economy.

2. What Is Tenure? The Basics and the Myths (04:13)

• Tenure as Employment Security: “Tenure is a type of employment contract that is itself a variety of just cause employment. Just cause employment means… the employer needs a reasonable reason, a just cause, to terminate this employment relationship." (04:13)
• Comparison with At-Will Employment: Acevedo illustrates US at-will employment, where “either party can terminate... for good reason, bad reason, no reason, anything except a specifically illegal reason” (05:35). Tenure exists because of the insecurity of this system: “Tenure… is along a spectrum of employment contracts that exist in the first place because we have this default rule that is so risky for employees.” (08:06)

3. Debunking Tenure = Job for Life (08:22)

• Tenure Doesn’t Guarantee Lifetime Employment: “That is absolutely not the case. If you have cause, you can terminate somebody” (08:34).
• Two Ways Tenured Faculty Lose Jobs:
  • For cause (e.g., misconduct)
  • Group terminations at institutional closures or during financial crises (08:59)
• Pandemic Example: “Departments or committees or entire colleges... were firing all of their faculty, and many... were tenured... for reasons that had nothing to do with individual bad behavior.” (09:34)

4. Who Gets Fired? Data on Tenure Terminations (11:10)

• Data Set Challenges: “Very little usable information tracking tenure stream faculty... so I set out to build this data set” (11:14).
• Scale of Reductions in Force (RIFs): “More tenured faculty have lost their jobs just over the last five years at 13 universities because of these RIFs, than... at all universities in the last 20 years because they did something bad.” (12:25)
• Mostly Public Universities: “Most tenured faculty terminations during this 20-year period... happened at public universities” (14:07).
  • Legislative attacks mainly target public institutions—where most faculty terminations already occur.
  • Public employees (faculty) have slightly more job-related rights than private.
• Disciplines and Leaving: No evidence that engineers or “marketable” scholars quit more than those in humanities when facing termination: “The data didn’t suggest... engineers were more likely to say, ‘this is too much trouble, I’m walking away’” (19:54).

5. Faulty Assumptions About Tenure’s Influence on Behavior (27:22)

• Three Big Misconceptions: Acevedo devotes a chapter to each common myth:
  1. Tenure Breeds Ideological Renegades: “There’s this idea that tenure allows faculty to be irresponsibly ideological… because they have job security" (27:52). But in reality: “Anyone who's achieved tenure has spent years jumping through hoops, learning conventions and fitting themselves within those conventions… they've learned to conform to a great degree” (28:34).
  2. Tenure Encourages Bad Behavior (esp. Sexual Misconduct): "Bad behavior happens in academia... but we do not know whether those kinds of bad behavior are more common in academia, let alone... in tenured academia" (32:58).
     • Much sexual misconduct occurs where no tenure system exists.
     • Lack of data means comparative claims cannot be supported.
  3. Tenure Causes Laziness: “Assuming that people only do things at work in order to keep their jobs... is assuming that people behave as hyper-rational beings, and as soon as there’s no rational motivation to engage in work, they sit back on their heels and don’t work. That’s not how most people are” (40:37).
     • Research shows productivity before and after tenure remains consistent for individuals (45:44).

6. The True Value of Tenure (47:03)

• Tenure as Compensation for Risk: “Tenure acknowledges and partly compensates for the high barrier of entry, the low financial reward and the challenging expectations, heavy personal sacrifices, and the auto-depreciation associated with pursuing an academic career” (47:43).
• Labor Market Realities: Without tenure, faculty face a shrinking set of non-academic options as their careers progress.

7. Should Tenure Be Reformed? How? (50:32)

• Open to Reform: “I think there is always room for improvement... It’s not useful or honest to say nothing should change right now because we are under attack.” (50:32)
• Concrete Suggestions:
  • Extend the Shelf Life for Tenure Letters: “We could adjust the process and timeline... for the collection and retention of tenure file letters... so that letters remain valid longer, easing the burden on both junior and senior faculty” (51:19).
  • Recognize and Reward Distinct Roles: “The image of the tenure stream faculty... as a teacher-scholar, can’t hold true anymore. Each role now deserves its own recognition and job security” (54:59).
    • Advocate for Teaching Tenure: “Teaching well... is itself a full-time job worthy of the job security that tenure provides. We have teaching tenure.” (56:01)

8. What’s Next for Deepa Das Acevedo? (59:52)

• Continued Research: Deepa is expanding her work, exploring “academia as an industry... and how academia and academics can engage better, more productively with the world outside.” She is currently doing institutional ethnography at Emory on public scholarship (59:52).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Tenure... says you need to have a better reason to terminate this relationship. And lots of employees are hired and employed and maybe fired pursuant to just cause contracts.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (05:36)
• “More tenured faculty have lost their jobs just over the last five years at 13 universities because of these RIFs, than have lost their jobs at all universities in the last 20 years because they did something bad.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (12:25)
• “Anyone who’s achieved tenure has spent years jumping through hoops... They have learned to conform to a great degree.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (28:34)
• "We cannot say that tenure encourages the kind of predatorial behavior that it is so often blamed for encouraging." — Deepa Das Acevedo (36:15)
• “People who produce a lot before tenure produce a lot after tenure. People who don’t produce so much before, don’t produce so much after.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (45:44)
• "One of the things that tenure does is provide a sense of security for people who choose to opt out [of the general labor market] in order to do those things that we all more or less want done.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (48:40)
• “If we had teaching tenure, if we had research tenure...both accorded tenure—those are ways we could reform tenure without decreasing rigor.” — Deepa Das Acevedo (56:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Deepa’s Background & Path to Tenure Research: 02:43-03:59
• What Is Tenure? Just Cause vs. At-Will: 04:13-08:22
• Tenure Myths: ‘Job for Life’: 08:22-10:56
• Tenure Termination Data & RIFs: 11:10-19:54
• Who Quits, Who Gets Fired? Disciplinary Differences: 19:54-27:18
• Common Mischaracterizations – 3 Tenure Myths: 27:22-47:03
  • Ideological Renegades: 27:47-33:51
  • Misconduct & Data Issues: 32:58-39:12
  • Laziness, Productivity, & Motivation: 40:37-45:44
• Value of Tenure, Labor Perspective: 47:03-50:32
• Reforming Tenure: Processes & Roles: 50:32-59:33
• Future Research Directions: 59:52-61:49

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive, research-driven critique of major myths surrounding academic tenure, positioning it as a labor protection at risk from both misunderstanding and political attack. Deepa Das Acevedo encourages us to move past outdated or unsupported assumptions, and to consider reforms that strengthen tenure’s core values—academic freedom, labor fairness, and the sustainability of scholarly life—while adapting to contemporary institutional realities.

For anyone interested in higher education, labor law, or the future of academia, this conversation provides necessary nuance, fresh data, and a call for reform that honors both tradition and necessary evolution.