Podcast Summary: Diane Ravitch, "An Education: How I Changed My Mind About Schools and Almost Everything Else" (Columbia UP, 2025)
New Books Network – October 28, 2025
Host: Tom Disena
Guest: Diane Ravitch

Episode Overview

This episode features historian and education policy commentator Diane Ravitch discussing her candid memoir, "An Education: How I Changed My Mind About Schools and Almost Everything Else." The conversation traces Ravitch's evolution from a leading neoconservative advocate for high-stakes testing and school privatization to a forceful critic of those very reforms. She delves into her personal life, formative intellectual influences, high-level policy experience, and the events that led her to embrace positions she once opposed—including affirmative action, DEI, and what she now calls a proudly "woke" politics. The episode combines memoir, policy critique, and commentary on ongoing political and cultural battles over public education.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Starting Point: Ravitch's Memoir and Its Purpose

• Ravitch reveals her motivation for writing the memoir: to be completely transparent, sharing aspects of her life she's never before discussed publicly.
  • "I just decided to put everything out there...in some cases I've never said [these things] to anyone in a face to face conversation." (03:05, Ravitch)
• She expresses dissatisfaction with the book's title, wishing it had been called "How I Became Woke":
  • "I would have preferred a more provocative title, particularly the fact that I am proudly woke." (06:35, Ravitch)

2. Political Realignments: From Neoconservatism to 'Wokeness'

• Ravitch recounts her interactions with early neoconservative thinkers, including Irving Kristol, and reflects on how political labels and alignments have radically shifted over time.
  • "A neoconservative is a liberal mugged by reality. It seems to me that this book takes that idea and turns it completely on its head." (03:26, Disena)
• She observes that "conservatives" of the past were not like MAGA Republicans and believes today's right-wing shift would have repulsed many original neoconservatives.
  • "They would have been repulsed by Trump, by his personal behavior...He’s redefined conservatism." (05:20, Ravitch)
• On her personal evolution:
  • "I was a neoconservative who got mugged by reality." (38:47, Ravitch)
  • "I support DEI. I support Critical Race Theory...I'm on the other side of [MAGA types]." (07:18, Ravitch)

3. Early Experiences and Formative Education

• Ravitch details her upbringing in Houston, initial belief in colorblindness, and why she later came to see that as "endorsing the status quo."
  • "What may have made my views more conservative was that I believed in colorblindness and meritocracy and standardized testing...What I now understand...is that if you have a totally colorblind standard, then you're endorsing the status quo." (10:06, Ravitch)
• She credits her own rise—from Texas public schools to Wellesley College—to a system of meritocracy, which she later came to see as entwined with white privilege.
  • "I was a beneficiary of all the things I'm now criticizing...what I used to not believe in, which is white privilege." (15:07, Ravitch)
• Her reminiscences about Wellesley highlight the liberatory aspects of women's education, as well as the social/intellectual challenges she faced.
  • "I loved Wellesley because Wellesley gave me an incredible sense of freedom...I’m no longer a brainiac. I’m kind of in the middle somewhere." (16:07, Ravitch)

4. Personal Adversity and Private Life

• Ravitch openly discusses challenges in her marriage—its “sexist” double standards and the loss of a child.
  • "He was a sexist pig and he was always berating me because I wasn't taking care of his clothing appropriately...I was trying to be an intellectual and he demanded something quite different." (19:56, Ravitch)
  • On losing a child and facing a forced abortion: "It was something I didn't want to do and it broke my heart, frankly. So that was...I thought of it as a very big deal." (22:09, Ravitch)
• A notable story: her husband’s confrontation with Donald Trump over a tax credit.
  • "He's the only person I've ever known who said F you to Donald Trump." (23:08, Ravitch)

5. Career Path: From Entry-level Publishing to Education Policy

• Early professional development at The New Leader magazine, immersion in political/intellectual circles, and the role of personal networks in shaping her trajectory.
  • "I needed that job, which was to be everything, to learn how to edit, to occasionally write an article...I had a wonderful experience meeting people who were Mensheviks and ex Bolsheviks..." (24:50, Ravitch)
• Stories about connections with figures such as Bayard Rustin—another "F you" to Hitler anecdote.
  • “Because she told Hitler to go F himself.” (Bayard Rustin to Ravitch, story at 28:14)

6. Personal Transformation: Meeting Mary

• Ravitch recounts meeting her wife Mary during a conference and their subsequent partnership. She reflects on the dignity and stability of their decades-long relationship, and concerns over LGBTQ rights in the current climate.
  • "We've been together since 85, so that's 40 years. And we got married in 2012 when it became legal in New York State...the Supreme Court would say, you can't be with a person you love." (29:00 – 32:03, Ravitch)

7. Federal Policy Experience and Disenchantment with Reform

• Details her tenure as Assistant Secretary of Education under George H.W. Bush and subsequent support for charters and vouchers—positions she now repudiates.
  • "I came back to New York and got involved in a number of conservative think tanks." (35:54, Ravitch)
• Explains the original, unionized vision for charter schools, inspired by Al Shanker, and how it was quickly corrupted.
  • "The first charter law that passed in Minnesota completely eviscerated everything he believed in...He saw that the for-profits were going into the charter business and that was not what he wanted." (36:10 – 37:55, Ravitch)

8. Awakening: The Bloomberg Years and the Failure of "Reform"

• Pinpoints the Bloomberg mayoralty as the moment her faith in test-driven and choice-based reform collapsed. She discusses her moral and intellectual objections to the outcomes she witnessed.
  • [Reading from memoir] "Reform and its present guise meant strategies of tests and punishment...They believed that so-called failing schools needed to be closed and their staff fired en masse...That was an eye opener for me." (38:52, Ravitch, reading)

9. The Limits of Standardized Testing; The Importance of Poverty

• Offers a detailed critique of standardized tests and the socioeconomic biases they entrench, invoking Campbell’s Law.
  • "What I discovered is that the tests have become harder and they're so difficult that even I couldn't pass the eighth grade test." (42:11, Ravitch)
  • "The standardized test is normed on a bell curve. The bell curve never closes...the test scores reflect family income." (42:11, Ravitch)
  • "If we decreased poverty, we would increase test scores." (45:29, Ravitch)
• Argues that focusing on tests has diminished real education:
  • "I saw how, once it was put in place as the be all and end all, it began to destroy education...arts, science, civics—all cut for reading and math." (46:47, Ravitch)

10. Contemporary Politics: Privatization, Vouchers, and Culture Wars

• Strong criticism of the current Trump administration’s educational privatization and their attacks on civil rights.
  • "I am passionately opposed to the Trump administration. I think that the destruction that's going on in Washington is terrifying..." (49:25, Ravitch)
  • "They are intending to eliminate the Department of Education...moving quickly to eliminate federal aid." (51:17, Ravitch)
  • On civil rights: "...now they're advocating for patriotic education. They're not allowed to do that. That's illegal. But these days, try finding a court that will tell them it's illegal." (51:46, Ravitch)
• On school vouchers and the Supreme Court’s willingness to allow public money for religious schools:
  • "I just think that what's really—the real beneficiaries of the voucher movement are...wealthy families...and evangelical schools..." (53:50, Ravitch)
  • "My fundamental view these days...is the public money should go for public schools, and that public schools should continue to have doors open to everyone..." (55:44, Ravitch)
  • "The mingling and intermingling of Americans in school is very important, but mostly important for teaching democracy..." (57:41, Ravitch)

11. Closing Reflections and Definition of “Woke”

• Ravitch’s closing statement:
  • "I still believe in standards, but not so much in standardized testing, which has built in biases and is best at measuring family income, family education...I believe in telling the truth to the best of one's ability and pursuing justice...A good nation would not permit people to die on the street because they can't afford food or housing or medical care...I believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was woke...That is my definition of woke. And so today I am proudly woke, and I'm aligned with Jesus." (58:17, Ravitch, reading)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I wanted to call the book How I Became Woke. My editor didn't think that was a good idea. I thought it was a great idea to be totally countercultural." (06:35, Ravitch)
• On being labeled a 'conservative' for critiquing revisionist history: "Having criticized the radical historians, that pushed me even farther into being considered a conservative." (11:08, Ravitch)
• "I was a beneficiary of all the things I'm now criticizing...what I used to not believe in, which is white privilege." (15:07, Ravitch)
• "He was a sexist pig and he was always berating me because I wasn't taking care of his clothing appropriately..." (19:56, Ravitch)
• "He's the only person I've ever known who said F you to Donald Trump." (23:08, Ravitch)
• On charter schools: "He introduced the idea in 1988...but the first charter law that passed in Minnesota completely eviscerated everything he believed in." (36:34, Ravitch)
• "If we decreased poverty, we would increase test scores. But the test scores are not the most important measures. And I would say what kids actually do should be judged by their teachers. And we should trust teachers." (45:29, Ravitch)
• "My fundamental view these days, and it wasn't all my life, but it certainly is now, is the public money should go for public schools, and that public schools should continue to have doors open to everyone..." (55:44, Ravitch)
• "I believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was woke...That is my definition of woke. And so today I am proudly woke, and I'm aligned with Jesus." (59:17, Ravitch)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:05] – Ravitch describes her candid approach to the memoir.
• [06:35] – Explaining book title controversy and embracing “woke.”
• [10:06] – Early intellectual influences and belief in meritocracy/colorblindness.
• [15:07] – Personal benefit from—and later criticism of—meritocracy and privilege.
• [19:56] – Challenges in marriage, loss of a child, abortion.
• [23:08] – Anecdote: Her husband confronts Donald Trump.
• [29:00] – Meeting Mary and the foundation of her current partnership.
• [32:18] – Tenure as Assistant Secretary of Education.
• [36:34] – Evolution and corruption of the charter schools idea.
• [38:52] – Pivotal realization about the true effects of "education reform" during the Bloomberg administration.
• [42:11] – Standardized testing’s embedded socioeconomic bias.
• [49:25] – Sharp criticism of Trump-era education policy and civil rights retreat.
• [53:50] – Critique of voucher programs, religious schools, public money.
• [58:17] – Closing reading: her creed and definition of “woke.”

Conclusion

This episode provides a wide-ranging, deeply personal, and highly relevant look at the evolution of American education policy over the last half-century through the experience of one of its most prominent commentators. Ravitch’s intellectual honesty, willingness to revise her own positions, and her resolve to connect educational justice to broader social and democratic ideals make this conversation essential listening for anyone interested in schools, politics, and the fight over the future of public education.

(All times in MM:SS format. For clarity, advertisements and non-content sections have been omitted.)