B (11:58)

Yes, listening to the list of works is very impressive and compelling. And I would also like listeners to know that the book is Beautifully illustrated with some of these pieces, imagery of some of these pieces. I'm wondering if you might tell us how the position that you kind of created for yourself or helped fashion, I guess, at the museum evolved over your time there. I know in the book there's some very interesting twists and turns in the story of what you were doing and what you wanted to do. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?

C (12:41)

You know, I was. As I. And as I mentioned, I was originally thought to be a specialist only in graphic arts, and I wanted to expand my portfolio. And when I started, I thought that I was going to actually work with someone on the building of the collection. That would have been my preference. But in fact, it ended up that I was the only one who was working with the. The chief of the Queen's office. And he was a man who had his PhD from USC, but wasn't in art. It was. It was a subject completely unrelated. And he didn't really know much about art. So I considered it really my. In order to make him understand what I was actually trying to achieve and to understand the value of the works that I was presenting as possible acquisitions that, you know, had to teach him about the history of art, certainly the modern art. And so every session when we met to go over works of art that were either presented to us or which I had found through our connections or on auction, we would talk about the value of the work in terms of its rarity and. And its place in the history of art and its technique. And through the course of two years, he learned quite a lot and thanked me in the end for all of that. But it was incremental kind of change in my position because he had to learn to trust me and know that I was, you know, altruistic in my approach, that I was really trying to get the best for them and to follow what we had all agreed upon as the basis of my work. So I ended up working on several exhibitions. One was for the Nagarestan Museum. I was asked to do an exhibit of the print collection of the Empress. And that took me for the first time to Nyavaron Palace. And I went there on several occasions to catalog the works that she had and to be there for the photographer. And. And then I realized that, you know, she had acquired things that she liked and that some of them were by, you know, important artists, but not necessarily the most important work. But it was an opportunity to do the first exhibition of contemporary graphics in Iran. And so I made it into a kind of educational exhibition. A didactic one, and talked about print techniques. And it included the work not only of international artists like Vasarelli and Chagall and Picasso, but also it included several Iranian artists because she was a big supporter, of course, of the Iranian contemporary community. And so there were works by Tanavo Lee and Arab Shahi and Mohasas and various other artists who were working at that time. I also worked on a big exhibition that was at the Basel art fair in 1976, and it was an exhibition of, I think, 36 contemporary Iranian artists. And I was part of a team of people who chose the artists and the works for the collection that was exhibited. And it was an opportunity for the Iranian artists to see their work in a global setting and to understand what the global market was. There was a very active art interested community in Iran. And during the time I was there, several new galleries opened. But the artists, only a few of the artists had really an international presence and dealers. And so they didn't have a real sense of what the value of their art was on a global stage. So this was an opportunity for them to participate and to also learn a lot about what the contemporary scene was around the world and not just in Iran. And then on top of that, the Queen's office took the artists and their families on kind of a broad tour of various places in Europe to inform them more about what was going on elsewhere and for them to see some important sites, because a lot of the artists hadn't had an opportunity to travel that way.

B (18:45)

Many levels to what you were doing, your collections, policies, choosing works, providing some education and some networking. And I'm wondering, related to that, you come to that situation as an American woman and I wonder, you know, what it was like being a woman doing this work at the time, living on your own in Tehran, how you made friends or how you were received.

C (19:19)

Well, you know, it was. It was an amazing place at that time. There was a real international community. People from all over the world were coming to Tehran because it was, you know, the, the most lively place. And there was a lot of money in Tehran, so a lot of building going on. And it, it was an exciting time to be there. Actually. I lived in an apartment complex which had two towers around a plaza. It was central in the sort of middle of Tehran. So it was not a long walk to my office, or I could take a kind of jitney taxi if I wanted, that only went on one street in one direction. And he would yell out that you were going straight ahead. And the one or two Taxis would, would try and get you to come into their taxi and, and then you would tell them where you were getting off, what the cross street would be and they would drop you off anyway. The, the, the advantage of where I live, besides having, you know, air conditioned and you know, a properly heated apartment, it also had a great view of the Albers Mountains which were very majestic and beautiful and wonderful light. It was very small, but it was really just perfect. And the building had a 24 hour concierge and it had on two levels like a department store. It was a market you could get of. There was a camera store, there were rug stores, there were various shops of every variety. And that was also convenient. So as a foreigner it was a good place to live. And you know, I had some language. By the time I arrived in Iran, I was taking Farsi lessons in New York for four months. And so I could make my way and I could ask for things and, and shop, but I couldn't have a real intelligent conversation. But it did help me. And then of course when I got there, I knew that I had to study more. And so I hired another tutor and continued to study for a time. And, and it was good for me to be able to understand certain things, to be able to read letters and numbers, to somehow converse. I found it easy to converse with children, for example, or people in the countryside much more than in the city. And I also was curious what people were saying about me, so I, I could sort of eavesdrop a little bit and understand, which I thought was useful.

B (22:46)

I can imagine. Right. With all these different people you're meeting. And something that I really enjoyed in the book is the very honest description of certain kinds of encounters, that and your perception of people. And it just adds another dimension to this book about what it was like to be in Tehran at that time. Whether one is working, was working at a museum or not.

C (23:14)

I guess I was actually not working at a museum. I was, I was working in an office in kind of downtown Tehran, a very discreet office that had the queen's insignia out front, but that's all. And the museum didn't open until 1977. So I never actually worked in the museum or I only was a contractor for two or three exhibitions which I did for the opening of the museum. So you know, I had some impact on aspects of how the museum was finished. And I had. One of the things that I did that from the beginning was I was buying books for the First National Library of Art History. And I bought more than 10,000 books, art history books that were, I think, eventually put in the library of the museum. But I hired two Iranian, two librarians, one was American and one was Iranian, to catalog all the books that I had acquired.

B (24:39)

One wonders where those books are now, which might lead us to what, what might have. What is the current state of affairs regarding the collection that you helped and were so important in creating there and helping them acquire as we speak.

C (25:01)

Where.

B (25:02)

Where are these things?

C (25:04)

Okay, well, the museum has a very large storage and for most of the last 40 years, most of the collection has been in storage. It's come out for an exhibition in 1999 when there was an opening up and a more liberal government under Katami and that. And then again in 2005, there was a large exhibition of the Western materials. But when the Islamic revolution happened, the museum was closed down. And Khomeini was very against west toxification and he was very firm that the artworks wouldn't be seen. And so it took a long while, 10 years. And after he died, actually before the museum was able to show The Works in 1999, and the collection still remains mostly in storage, things go out on loan to other countries. And indeed, I tried very hard in the essay part of my book to talk about which works were exhibited and where they were exhibited outside of Iran and also in Iran, because in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so, more and more works have been included in various exhibitions, even of Iranian artists like Feri Dallas Shah had retrospective and her works were shown in conjunction with the Western objects, which was something that, you know, didn't happen too much before that time.

B (27:17)

And so at a certain point in the memoir, you decide to leave. And maybe it's very interesting, we don't want to give everything away in the book, but why you chose to leave Tehran and how that, how that went.

C (27:39)

Okay. You know, when, when I went there, I got a one year contract and, and I signed up for a second year. But shortly after I had my second contract, I also had a trip home for the first time to see family and friends. And it became very clear to me that, you know, there was only a limit to what I could expect to do in Tehran. And, you know, the frustrations were great. It was not an easy job. It was the hardest job I've ever had. And so I, I decided on that trip that really I was not going to have a third, you know, third year there. I felt that my two years were going to be sufficient. And I came back. It was probably summer of 76 and I was very busy. And then towards the end of that year, the architect for the museum, Cameron Debo, was named the director of the Museum. And there was a change in government at the end of October of 76. And the man who had been my boss at the head of the Queen's office was, became the Minister of Information in the Shah's cabinet. And another man, Dr. Nahavandi, became the director of the Queen's office. And I, I was put in a very strange position because the man who had brought me there was kind of my protector. And it was very awkward for me because I didn't have. I didn't know how I would actually be able to complete my work. And I was very concerned that the artworks would get damaged because they were left at customs and not brought to the Queen's office or to storage. So it was a very difficult time those months. And I was just told I had to be patient. Well, I had to be patient until May. And then in May, even though that was three months after my second contract had expired, I was able to do the completion of my work. And. And then I was given the tax papers and customs papers that I needed in order to leave. And so it was a very strange moment in my work there. It's longer than a moment months where I was kind of baseball being thrown back and forth between four different people. The head of the Queen's office, the head of the Department of Arts and Culture, the director of the Museum. Each one wanted something from me or didn't want something from me. And it was very hard. But I finally managed and I decided I left at the end of May, went to Europe, came back again because I had a job in Tehran from Europe and I came back in June and then I went to New York and I went back for the opening of the museum where I had two exhibitions, one on the history of photography collection and one on the graphic arts, prints, drawings and books.

B (31:51)

And yet the story really doesn't just end. I had the pleasure of speaking with you a little bit before we started the recording about whether you are still am in contact with the Queen, the Shaba Anu, as she was known, Faradiba. And throughout the book it's clear that she's, she's the support, a support behind the project. And you also have this wonderful photograph on the COVID of yourself and the Queen. And I wondered if you might talk a little bit about the relationship you had and how you continue to be friends today.

C (32:36)

Well, I would say that during the time that I was in Iran. I actually. She was a very big presence in my life. I mean, there were pictures of her everywhere, in my office, in the building and around the, you know, the city. I went to a number of events that she was present at. But with royalty, you're not able to just go up and shake their hand and say hello. You have to be officially introduced. And I wasn't officially introduced actually, until August of 76. And I had been working for the Iranians from February of 75. And I was invited at that time with about 10 other people to go with the queen to the Shiraz Arts Festival, which was its 10th year. And it was known worldwide because it brought in the greatest avant garde and also indigenous artists from countries around the world. And it was a kind of meeting of the artists. And it was done in various places all around Shiraz, including the ancient site of Persepolis. So it was very grand and very exciting. And we spent three days going to events, going to the bazaar, going to concerts at the tomb of Hafiz, all kinds of things that happened. And the last night, which was a formal event at dinner, I was actually finally introduced to her. And she told me that she'd always thought of me as an old woman with glasses, that she didn't realize I was so young, attractive, and Chicago. So it was kind of very funny. And then I again reconnected with her when she was already in exile about 10 years in 1990. And I had a wonderful Iranian friend, and through her, I asked for an interview because I thought that what she had done had been so far in advance of anything in the near and Middle east, even till 1990 and way before, three decades before any of the museums that are now in Dubai and the other countries of the Emirates. And anyway, so I did this on the record interview, about two and a half hours, actually. And I had brought along with me the photographer, the feminist photographer, Judy Dater, and she did portraits of her as we talked. And I was able finally to publish just a small section of the. Of the long interview in 2013 in a book called Performing the Iranian State. And it was at that time that I really reconnected with her and that we've, you know, talked off and on through the years about various things that either she was interested in that I might know or that I was interested in and that she knew. And she was very kind when I was writing and, you know, answered all my questions. And indeed, through these years, she's been saying to me, please write your book. I know you have these archives that you've kept. We need to have those. You know, we need. Need them to be out there and for people to be aware of what went on. You know, she, she. This was a passionate project for her. She loves art. And indeed, it wasn't the only museum that she started at the time. She started one for Leurice dawn bronzes, for glassworks, for painted miniatures for the Kadjar period, which is 17th and 18th, 18th and 19th century art. And so she was committed to educating her populace. And she thought that by having artworks available for them to see and to understand and to their. To know their national patrimony, that would be part of their education. The Shah in 1963 had something which he called the White Revolution. And it was a way to bring his populace to a more contemporary point of view. And it changed the status of women. It made it possible for people to have to own land who had previously not been able to have land. The distribution was changed, and there was all kinds of industries that were taken over by the government. And it was a time where they focused on literacy. And when the Queen became very active in her role later in the 60s and in the 70s, she worked in the areas of social welfare, education and culture. And so she thought that the arts were very important and really supported them very effectively.

B (39:08)

And this compelling story that you tell in the book, it really does continue in these. Spreading off in these different directions as you've just described. And also we have the fact that. That there is still an art collection there. And the. Maybe the final question I'd like to ask you is what are your hopes for that collection that was such a part of your life? What would you like to see happen with it?

C (39:35)

Well, actually, I think they've begun to. They realize how important it is in terms of its value and interest. And what I tried to do is not just talk about the money value of things, which is in every article you read about the collection, but actually the aesthetic value and the importance of what the Queen actually did in terms of establishing the museum, of creating a dialogue between east and west of her. Her ability to have a kind of global perspective that was way in advance of what, you know, the current approach to globalism. And, you know, I think all of those things made her legacy. They're pretty extraordinary and very much in advance of other countries from Central Asia and the Near East. And it seems to me that because of what she did, they have not only a fabulous financial stockpile, but. And they know that, which is why it's still there, but that, that they're actually taking care of it. They just renovated the museum, took 30 months to completely redo it. They've put up a new website, the works are cataloged. They're actually publishing a six volume collection catalog corpus. And you know, so I think what they're doing is pretty wonderful and they're moving forward and they have been lending works to museums in Scotland, in England, in Japan and other places. So I think that's good that the collection gets, is taken care of well and it gets to be seen and hopefully it'll be, you know, exhibited more in, you know, its own museum in the Tehran Museum of Contemporary Art. I was very excited to hear recently because I have an Instagram account that's followed by many people who work at the museum and you can message on Instagram. And I received a message which was very surprising to me. It was my name that I had written in English and in Farsi. And then there was a. The logo of the Queen's office in a separate image. And I was, I wrote back and I said, where did you find these? And so I learned that all of my files that I had carefully made before I terminated my job there for each artwork, both in the Western collection and in the contemporary Iranian collection, that all of that is in the archive of the museum. So I was thrilled, I was really pleased to know that, you know, they're taking care of things and that they have kept the important things that we had established for the collection.

B (43:33)

This is a very positive and exciting note on which to end. And I. That it's a, it's a good ending. And I'm smiling.

C (43:43)

How small isn't it?

B (43:46)

And I'm sure listeners are thinking social media, Instagram, you know, there's another piece of the puzzle.

C (43:54)

Oh, they're very savvy, technically, you know, they're on, they're on social media all the time. It's fascinating.

B (44:04)

Here's an example where sometimes we hear so much about negative elements of social media and we can challenge that narrative. I think I really want to thank you for taking the time and giving us insight into this memoir. And just a reminder, everyone, the title of the book is the Empress and How an Ancient Empire Collected, Rejected and Rediscovered Modern Art by Donna Stein, published by Skira in 2020. And I again, thank you so much for your time today.

C (44:40)

Thank you, Kristin.

B (44:54)

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