A (5:28)

You've mentioned that the book was really informed by these experiences you had when you began teaching. And it opens right away with you letting us know about your work teaching third graders. And you notice that later on, as they get older, they're not applying to four year schools. And on page Two, you say? So why weren't my former third graders enrolling at four year schools? Why weren't they going to colleges like Bates? I didn't question my kids plans. Their plans were sensible and the work they would do valuable. But I wondered whether these plans had been a choice, if they'd had options and what those options were. The resources, the opportunities, the abundances of college were striking. And I wanted all of that or at least the possibility of all of that for my former third graders too. These questions really nagged at you for a long time. You started this project that became this book in 2014. The book came out in 2025. Can you take us into the making of the book? And for readers you'll find great abundance of details in the appendix at the back for listeners. This is new. So what would you like to share about the making of the book, Mara?

B (6:40)

First, I just love that you call out the appendix. I poured so much into this book and so there's so much in that appendix about kind of how all of this happened. And I, yeah, so first I just appreciate, you know, you, you noting the fact that there is an appendix and, and there's, there's some valuable information in there. So yeah, as you said, I, this study really began as a question. I was, you know, I was just beginning at Bates and I started getting these graduation announcements in the mail and they were my former third graders, they were graduating and you know, like I said they were, they're going to do good important work, you know, vet techs, they were going to be linemen, they were going to do important things. But I was noticing how few of them were going to college and especially to four year colleges. And I was just curious about, you know, why was that? Why weren't they going? And again like had it really been a choice? And so, and then after I spent another like year or two at Bates, I still had that question. But then I also began to wonder more about well, what if they had gone and what would that have been like to them, like for them? Because you know, I mean college and especially this kind of elite school, it can be a pretty rarefied environment. You know, none of my students, my current students, and I won't, and I shouldn't say none, very few of my current students seem to hunt or seem to go four wheeling or seem to listen to country music and those are things that are very much a part of my third graders lives. And so you know, what would it have been like if they had gone? And so that's what led to this study of like wanting to know kind of why weren't they going? And then for those who do go, like, what. What happens and how do they experience it? How do their families also experiencing. Experience it? Because college is not just about. It's not just a singular experience. Right. It has ripple effects on a family. And so I, you know, spent a while trying to find, you know, a grant to support it, to design the study, get IRB approval. Especially the IRB approval was a little bit trickier than in some of my past work because I would be following. What I wanted to do was to follow rural first generation students at college. And so the layers of, I guess the ethical questions that came up were really different than in other times when I've done work. So I had to kind of figure out all of that or at least have a pretty good idea of how I was going to address some of those concerns. And then it came time to invite students into the study and the agreement. So all nine of the students, and these are the nine students that I ultimately focus on, they all attend Hilltop, which is an elite, private liberal arts college. And so I had an agreement with Hilltop's admissions office and registrar where I wrote a letter inviting students to participate and they sent it out on my behalf. So I didn't know the identities of the students. And so then I basically just had to wait for the students to contact me. And one of the very first things that was really telling to me is that first year I had three students opt into the study. And this, you know, when I'd asked Hilltop's administration, oh, you know, how many rural first gen students do you think you have? And they're like, oh, you know, we've got tons. We're, you know, we're located in a pretty rural state. You know, we've got kind of a mission to serve our local community. And so, you know, I'm sure we got tons of. And so the first year, three students opted in, and that's half of eligible students. So they had six eligible students. And so one of the very first things I realized was like, wow, there are not many of these students. And also the administration is not aware of how few of these students there are. And so I began following those three students. The next year I did it again, invited more students. And that year I got six, which was again about half of the students that were eligible. And so then I followed these nine students for their four years at Hilltop. And I began with interviews before they started. So like the summer before matriculation. And then we concluded the fall after graduation. So I got to see also kind of what happens after they walk across the graduation stage. And I also interviewed the their parents, parent or parents as well.

A (11:14)

And the appendix takes us through the ethical concerns that you grappled with, how you made decisions that went beyond what IRB requires of you, how you invited the students in. Did they want a pseudonym? Did they want certain identity factors hidden or made clear? In one case, you were worried about a student. How out was he about his identity? And he did want you to let people know in the book that he was gay. Another student struggled with his mental health, and that's obviously a private matter for so many people, and yet he wanted it in the book because he felt people could learn from what he went through. That said, you made it possible for the students to read what you had written about them and to offer feedback. You also, at one point, you hire a assistant. And that assistant's background in many ways matches the background of these students. And that person's able in some ways to focus as a sensitivity reader as well as to give feedback on the clarity of the manuscript as a whole. So you built more into it than was required of you because of your dedication to what rural students need and respect for their families. In the early part of the book, you're really laying out more questions. And one of them is this idea of what elite colleges mean. In the popular narrative, you say they're a special destination with the biggest rewards for the best and brightest students. And their benefits are clear. They offer small classes, intensive advising, and robust academic support. And unlike many colleges and universities, they boast high retention rates. You go on to talk about how students make networks. They get cultural capital, many find their spouse, they feel likely to land a good job when they graduate or to go to graduate school. And for many, they earn a higher salary than students who didn't go to such a selective school. But you begin to start to question what the best and brightest means, and you talk about how it signifies something beyond merit and preparation and how eager the students are to go. And something about it signifies something about race and class and geography. And those three are really intertwined in your study. Your students are not just from a rural background, but most of them identify as first gen. And you have a lot of ongoing questions about what the narrative is about geography and what it means for these students. Can you talk about this narrative and this question you have about who it serves?

B (14:08)

Yeah. And so, first thing, I'll just say is actually all of the students identified as first gen. And so, but like you're saying, kind of class and race and geography are all intertwined in some very intimate ways. And, you know, I think there's a narrative. So, like you've pointed out, I think a few different narratives that are really pretty present right now, particularly at the. At this cultural moment. And so there is this kind of narrative that, like, you know, elite schools are for the best and the brightest. Right now, we're also at a really profound moment of doubt, I think, about the value of college and the value of a college education. And so there's some, I think, tension between some of those. At the same time, you know, while the students were enrolled at Hilltop, the 2016 election happened. And, you know, I think there's always been this kind of stereotype of rural people as ignorant or backwards or uneducated. And that narrative really came to the fore at that moment, and it was politicized as well. Right. And students heard that, and they. I think for many of them, that really crystallized a question which was, do I belong on this campus? You know, if I'm a rural person or come from a rural place? Yet everyone seems to be buying into this idea that rural people are uneducated or ignorant. You know, do I belong or do others think I belong? And many of them became, you know, they've been pretty quiet about their rural identities even before the 2016 election, but after that, they became even, like, totally silent. They became, I think, scared to identify as rural, and they worried a lot about what kind of assumptions would people make about them, about their family, and what would that mean? That mean for their sense of belonging on campus. And, you know, for all sorts of reasons, that sense of belonging on campus was pretty fragile. The way I describe it in the book is this idea of a conditional sort of belonging where they. They don't fully belong. Sometimes they can do things that might make them feel as if they belong a little bit more or might grant some belonging. Their classmates might grant them some, award them some measure of belonging, but that. That sense of belonging is really conditional for them, and it's very much tied to geography, even if they don't, I think, always see how it is. But also certainly tied to class. And then for some students, also tied to race as well.

A (17:07)

We heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more.

B (17:14)

Say hello to the hot panny snack wrap. Now you've really one go to McDonald's. And get it while you can.

A (17:22)

Chapter two takes us into the early days for the students. Chapter two is called Applying College Hope. Chapter three is called Entering Far from Home. And this is really the foundational part of it. We start to learn some details about the nine students that you will be following. You emphasize that Hilltop is a anonymized name for the school to help protect everyone's privacy. You let us know that while the admin of the school felt they had a fairly good number of rural students, when you really looked into the details, only 1 to 2% of the total student body really was rural first gen students. You end up with nine who are going to be part of this study. Nine identify as male, two as female. And you let us know that over the course of this study, you'll conduct 12 interviews with each one of them. But in chapters two and three, this is the early getting to know them, your early contact with them and with their parents. And you learn things about how these students, who we would describe as defying the odds. And later in the book, you, you start talking to us about what does it mean that they have to defy odds, that they have to have grit just to get through college. But in this point, they're full of hope and they're applying to Hilltop and ultimately they're going to go. And here we're looking at factors that actually get them to this decision. Can you talk about what kinds of things you noticed, even encouraged these students to apply?

B (18:53)

I think one of the biggest ones, and this, I mean again, counters so many of the myths about rural places and rural people, is their parents really, really wanted them to go to college. And with just one exception, they really wanted them to go to a selective liberal arts college. And that very much, I think flies in the face of many people's assumptions about rural par. I've also done some work with, and even in preparation for this study, I talked to a number of directors and staff at college access organizations. And I can't tell you how many people told me pretty plainly, oh, rural people just don't value education. That's the reason why there's this rural or urban college gap. And that is just not what I found in any way, shape or form. And I believe that is a pretty, it would say, kind of a placest view. Honestly, I've never met people that don't value education. They might not value the kind of education they had, but by and large people want education and they want that for their children. They want the kind of opportunities that might open up. They might not like the cost of that, but. But anyways. So these parents wanted their kids to go to college. And part of the reason they wanted their kids to go to college was because they themselves had really struggled to earn a living and particularly find fulfilling work that paid well in, in their rural economies. You know, and we're at this moment and have been for a little while where a lot of traditional rural economies are transitioning. So, you know, it's harder to find jobs in the fields or in the woods in the ways you once could. And, and their parents had, had struggled with that. And you know, many of them had lived in poverty and they did not want that for their children. And so they were really pushing their kids to go to college, even though they very much knew what the costs of that would be. And you know, and financial costs, of course, but also the personal costs where, you know, if they push their kid to college, there's a very high likelihood their child will not be able to return because there's not as many jobs for college educated workers in rural places. So I think that was one of the biggest factors was their parents, the kind of experience their parents had had and often and also their parents faith in them that they deserved this, they could do this, they, you know, they, they were capable. And so I think parents was kind of the number one factor. There were a lot of barriers they faced though, where many of these schools didn't have good college counseling staff being at a. And especially the students that had attended, about half the students had attended their local rural public high school. And those that hadn't had attended a private school with tuition paid like, you know, scholarship or town paid tuition, or they had been able to choice into a more urban public school. But, you know, so they often had very weak college counseling. They didn't have as access to as many AP courses, for example. So they're like the advanced placement courses that can provide really necessary preparation for college. They often didn't have that. They needed a lot of financial aid. So that was a challenge as well. And they also described for me what they felt like were the low expectations of many of their guidance counselors and their teachers. The teachers. They were pushing college, but it was more like, oh, a community college or this local option. They were, they felt like they were being kind of funneled down a track rather than having the full expanse of college options open to them.

A (22:49)

And so much of this will be laid out for readers in chapters one, two and three. Chapter three takes us into the students really being on campus. And we have this moment where one of the students we refer to by the name Hunter, his mom, is crying the whole long way home. And you tell us that is basically cross country drive. They're going to be going thousands of miles. And so we really see how the families are rooting for them, even though this is going to be hard for everybody. And one of your questions throughout the book is how much you want to know about people who do go. As you pointed out, so much of the data is about who doesn't go, stereotypes about why, and some rightly point out barriers that we need to be aware of and to make better policy decisions about that. This book focuses on those who do go and what it means for them and in many cases for their families. Chapter three is called Entering Far From Home. And you meet the students, you, you tell us a bit about all of them, and then you're really checking in with them about how this first year is going. And this is early on in the study for you. So you are also learning because one student in particular reports that everything is going quite well and that, you know, he's very happy and then you talk to his mom and the story is very different.

B (24:17)

Yeah, and I actually had that happen a number of times. And for some of the students it was just like a bit of a, kind of a rough patch. For two of the students in particular, they had a really, really difficult first year. And I didn't know and it really wasn't until there'd be sort of like hints dropped here and there. But it really wasn't until I talked to their parents the summer after their first year that I understood just how difficult it was. And it was a bunch of factors, often difficult roommates, real feeling not prepared for college academics, feeling missing home quite a bit, and then really just feeling that culture shock of being in a place that was so dramatically different from home.

A (25:09)

And it seems in a way like they were potentially protecting themselves from having to process it, but also in some ways sort of protecting you. But as, as they begin to trust you and you have more talks with them, you find out more of the particular kinds of problems that they're having. And some of them are, are very much like what college students have and others are because they don't recognize or see that they are having a different experience than some of the other students. And that's something that first gen students sort of overwhelmingly report, that they reach a point when they realize that what it means for them to have struggles is not what it means for people who are financially better off or who went to a prep school.

B (25:55)

Right, right, exactly. And, you know, I've gotten pushback sometimes, like, oh, you know, everyone has a hard transition in. But for these students it was, you know, it was just much more. And you know, they had to figure out things like, you know, what is, what are office hours or you know, what do I do when I'm struggling, you know, where, you know, many of their peers, especially those that have gone to elite boarding schools, they, they already knew all of that stuff. And so they might be struggling, you know, a bit with the transition, but this is like just orders of magnitude different. And I think one of the most challenging things which you just alluded to is the isolation of it. So they think they're kind of the only one going through this and they think it's about them. So a student would tell me, like, oh, I'm just not a math person. Rather than, oh, I attended a high school that because of the way we fund our public schools, it was not adequately funded, which means that it could not afford to have a robust college preparatory curriculum. And so therefore I did not get the kind of math preparation that this kid sitting next to me did. So they blame themselves, they internalize it. And this has pretty profound consequences, like of course on their self esteem, their sense of isolation, their sense of belonging, but also for some of them, like their entire college trajectories. You know, students that are opting out, particularly opting out of the STEM fields. And so, you know, that of course that radically changes the course of their life. And you know, part of what's at play here is not this, this not just being a choice, but this actually being a reflection of kind of the educational opportunity structure and what the ways they are disadvantaged by where they are from.

A (27:47)

And you describe that on page 63 when you as an author are, are reflecting on what, what these students have shared with you. You say, I suspect they just might not see the challenges or they might not see them as challenges. Their fierce desire for success might blind them to some of the costs of the transition. And they don't realize that their classmates might not be encountering the same difficulties or experiencing the same consequences. They simply think that this is what college is. You go on to talk about kinds of isolation and really the stress and some of the emotional toll on them, while you continue to emphasize that this is not to say that college is not a good place for rural and first gen students, but it's really eye opening as we go through the book about what it means. Would you like to say more about that?

B (28:39)

Yeah. And I think that's something that was a tension I felt in writing the book where I wanted to make it really clear that I mean, the students, they don't regret going and they ultimately all make it. They do well at college. You know, some of them, they make honors, some of them double major. You know, they're engaged in all kinds of activities and things like that. But the they could have had a different experience, an experience that was more positive, that supported their identity and it didn't cost so much. And again, not so much in the financial sense of things because they all were on quite a bit of financial aid. But I'm talking more about the kinds of relational costs and that sense of not belonging or the sense of kind of feeling like a divided identity. Those are the kinds of costs that incurred that I think they don't have to exist. Right. And so throughout when you're writing the book, I was really trying to emphasize not that these rural first gen students shouldn't be there, they absolutely should, and they were giving so much to the college, but that the trade offs, the costs didn't need to or shouldn't need to be so high for them.

A (29:58)

And on page 81, you let us know that the students that you've been following, they have made it through their first year, they will be continuing on. That's actually a precarious place for students. That summer is often described as summer melt. We often describe people who don't enroll for either their sophomore or their junior year as stopping out. And so this part of the book may appear to be somewhat quiet, but it's crucial. They've gotten to the end of freshman year and they know that they are going to continue on. And you talk about some of the things that help with that. You talk about for the two student athletes that you filed, that they felt supported by their teams, other students joined clubs and they felt support. They continue to seek out family support or to the families continue to let them know that they supported them. They also were able in some cases to connect with some part of campus staff. And there's many studies that show that if you have one person on campus who is rooting for you to stay, that connection can really matter as well as being part of some sort of group or activity outside of your classes. But you also let us know that at the end of that year they have questions and doubts and they try to ignore them and they try to focus on fitting in and that for the most part they do. And they continue to hope that whatever the costs are, they are worth it. Chapter four is called Persisting Different Worlds. And in that one, you really take us into how school is a bubble, and particularly elite schools are a bubble. And that's where you're talking about isolation, elitism, and that they begin to be a little bit about what college is promising them. Can you talk a bit about realizing you're in a bubble?

B (31:41)

Yeah, and this is, you know, this bubble kind of manifested in all sorts of ways, you know, and it's interesting because a lot of the students at Hilltop would recognize that they sort of lived in a bubble. But I think for these nine rural first gen students, they experience this bubble in a much more profound way. And partly, you know, I mentioned before, like the kind of like the political context. And so many of them were coming from more conservative leaning, redder places and some of their families were also more conservative. And I'll just say at the outset, the students were all over the map politically. So again, I think contrary to a lot of the assumptions about rural America, these were not nine Trump supporting students. Their political beliefs were very varied and their parents political beliefs were also very varied. But on the whole, the students were little bit more left leaning than their parents were. But Hilltop itself was this kind of very liberal and you know, the students kind of this very liberal bubble in this broader redder context beyond just that hilltop bubble. And the students really, you know, and especially after the election, there was a lot of talk about the election. And again, on many of these kind of rural narratives about rural America and rural America being responsible for the election of Trump, students really not know how to, you know, think about that, especially when this little blue bubble was very, very different than many of the contexts they were coming from. So it was this kind of political bubble. But what even seemed more, I think, telling and profound to them was this sort of, you know, hilltop and many of these elite schools are these kind of like intellectual bubbles or, you know, there are these ivory towers, right. And the kind of knowledge and expertise that's valued at home is really, really different. And so they would often talk about like not being in the real world when they were on college campus. And so their families were encountering real world problems. Many of their high school friends who had not gone on to college or gone on to very different kinds of colleges were experiencing and wrestling with real world problems, yet they were isolated from all of that. At the Hilltop. At Hilltop. And so I think they really begin to question sometimes like, is this education worth it? Is it, you know, is it going to actually help me do the things I need to do in adulthood? And so that was a very different kind of way of thinking about the bubble, but it certainly was very much a bubble. And then also just this, you know, as a small liberal arts college, is a place of extreme wealth. And that is very different than the kind of context these students are coming from. And so they're this, in this kind of like little isolated wealth bubble too. And you know, they get to a point, I mean, especially as they're kind of going on onto their junior and beginning their senior years, where they really start to question Hilltop, they start to develop a really critical eye towards Hilltop and where they hadn't when they were first year students and second year students, where they've kind of, you know, they drunk the Kool Aid before and now they're starting to see like, you know, is this, you know, again, like, I'm still glad I'm here. I know I'm still learning, you know, important things, but, you know, maybe Hilltop's like kind of not all it's cracked up to be.

A (35:14)

Chapter four, as we've mentioned, is called Persisting Different Worlds. And it takes us through them really now, being at school and seeing what it means to be there and some of the things that you just shared with us. It also takes us through more of their own experiences being on campus. And you are careful to center the students and their stories throughout the book. So listeners, when you, when you get the book, you will see many stories that directly center the students that are from their perspective and sharing their experiences. Chapter five is called Leaving Nowhere to Go. Chapter six is called Educated Out. And in those chapters we see them getting towards graduation, graduating, and what happens afterwards. I want to focus on chapter seven, however, which is called To College and Back. And you open it by saying, I've always been a college advocate. Like these nine students, my parents preached the value of a degree. Like these students, I went to college, an elite college, and then continued on to graduate school. You go on to talk about how you teach at an elite college, how you study, college access. You say, I know well the benefits of college and the benefits of, of elite degrees. And I can see how these impacts the wage bump, the increased job security, the generational returns might be especially important for rural students. I can also see how reducing the place based education gap might have important political and economic returns for society. This is one of the things that underpins the book is this question about why do students have to leave rural areas in order to access a highly competitive college experience? Is that really something that we should be touting for people? Why is it so hard to stay in a rural area and get a four year degree? These are things that you wrestle with in different parts of the book as policy problems and as things that are falling out of the narrative. How can people find the education that they need and have it in a location that works for them? Can you talk a bit about this place based educational gap?

B (37:37)

Right now in our country, about 45% of urban adults have some sort of post secondary degree compared to only 31% of rural, rural adults. And it's not just, it's not just adults. We also see this with rural youth. So rural youth are less likely to go on to college, especially to four year schools, than urban youth. So, so there is this kind of attainment gap and you know, and it has all kinds of consequences. Um, so of course, you know, it matters. You know, it's tied to gaps in employment and earnings. It also ties to gaps in like civic engagement, physical health and even like one's children's life chances. So there is this really big like attainment gap. And this attainment gap really matters. Another kind of interesting thing is that even though more people now are going to college and earning degrees, the gap is actually getting bigger over time, not reducing. And so, you know, if we don't do something about this gap, you can imagine what it might look like in 30 or 40 or 50 years. And because it's so consequential like this, this really matters. You know, I think in our country right now we're very much focused on the political part of this. But I would argue that it's the other factors that are I think even more consequential here. You know, and I think what I found in my research is in part it does matter about where jobs are for college educated workers. And we know that those are disproportionately located in cities. But there are all these other factors that also shape this attainment gap, including things like how well rural youth are prepared for college or what kinds of options they think are open to them. In terms of policy solutions though, I think one important one is really to think about our economic policy and how do we get more jobs in rural, more jobs for college educated workers in rural places so that going to college doesn't have to feel like it's a choice between a commitment to home and the opportunity for social mobility.

A (39:48)

Towards the end of chapter seven you're reckoning with the students about where they are now. You say they're in debt, they're hoping to move, they're still looking for jobs. They no longer trust the idea of a meritocracy. They're considering how much their degree has cost them. And you start to question and present the question to them, should everyone go to college? And they, with great intensity, come back and say, that is the wrong debate. And the student who you refer to as Liliana says the controversy should be whether everyone has access to it or not, not whether everybody should go. That is the issue that we should focus on giving access to education, good education. We're starting to come to the close of our time together. So my final question is, what do you hope listeners will take away?

B (40:43)

I think that. I think Liliana's argument there that, you know, I think we're really kind of bogged down in all these questions about, you know, is college worth it or who should go or especially for rural youth right now, you know, there's a lot of, like, you know, let's get them into the trades. And, you know, I think anything that is giving more people more options is great, but like, that's the kind of. That's what we need to be thinking about, is not making choices for rural youth, but it's making sure that they've got all of the same opportunities as anyone who's not living in a rural place. And so making sure that they've got the chance to get an education and a good education and that it's a choice on their part. And I think I also really hope that. And I know it's the students fervent hope. You asked at the very beginning, you noted how many of the students wanted to. Well, we talked a little bit before, but how many students, they wanted to go to college in part to push back on this rural narrative, right? This idea that rural folks are ignorant or uneducated. And that was part of what was driving them to college. And so I hope one thing that people or the readers take away is that the stereotypes are wrong. They're very incomplete, unnuanced. They lack nuance. And so I hope that some of these students stories can get out there and be a part of how we think about opportunity for all students, including those students that are from rural places.

A (42:30)

Thank you so much for being here today, Dr. Mara Tekin, and taking us inside your book, Educated How Rural Students Navigate Elite Colleges and what It Costs Them. You've been listening to the academic life. I'm Dr. Christina Gessler inviting you to please join us again.

B (42:59)

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order, 1-800-contacts.