Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Elizabeth Sawin, "Multisolving: Creating Systems Change in a Fractured World" (Island Press, 2024)
Host: Michael Simpson
Guest: Dr. Elizabeth Sawin
Date: October 11, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Michael Simpson interviews Dr. Elizabeth Sawin about her new book, Multisolving: Creating Systems Change in a Fractured World. Dr. Sawin, founder of the Multisolving Institute and a climate scientist, dives deep into the concept of “multisolving”—an approach that addresses complex challenges like climate change, equity, health, and economic vitality together, rather than in isolation. The conversation blends systems thinking theory, real-world examples, and personal anecdotes, aiming to show listeners how tackling problems in an integrated, equitable way leads to more powerful solutions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Multisolving vs. Co-Benefits Approach

• Definition: Both multisolving and co-benefits seek to address multiple interconnected problems, but multisolving places equal value on all benefits rather than treating most as secondary.
• Nuance:
  • Co-benefits can create a hierarchy (one “main” and others “co”), whereas multisolving treats all positive outcomes as equally important, dependent on perspective.
  • Multisolving is a “verb” (active process); co-benefit is a noun (result).
• Quote:
  • "The beauty of the word multisolving is we don't have to choose which one's the most important. We can say they're all important." – Dr. Elizabeth Sawin [05:27]

2. Process Over Replication (How vs. What)

• Observations from the field: Attempts to directly transplant successful projects internationally often fail because solutions must be matched to local people and place.
• What works:
  • Focus on how projects are run—attitudes, methods, collaboration, and solidarity—rather than simply copying solutions.
  • Genuine solidarity involves caring equally for all outcomes, not just forming transactional alliances.
• Quote:
  • "We started paying attention to the way that people worked, the attitudes and the approaches, because we saw that those are really common across cultures, geographies, sectors." – Dr. Sawin [08:28]

3. Equity at the Core of Multisolving

• Dr. Sawin’s Definition: Equity is embedded in decision-making, leadership, and distribution of resources. It respects and includes varied forms of leadership (both formal and lived experience) and allows more than one group’s priorities to be honored at once.
• Types of Equity: Racial, gender, intergenerational, and more—tailored to each community’s context.
• Impact: Without equity, systems lose “collective intelligence”—the practical and ethical value of honoring all voices.
• Quote:
  • "Everyone is precious and everyone is unique, and we have these inalienable rights and we're not honoring the ethics of that. But there's also the loss of collective intelligence." – Dr. Sawin [15:00]

4. Legacy of Inequity & Systemic Barriers

• Key Drivers to Watch:
  • Concentration of resources (“traces of history” in the system).
  • Unconscious patterns of thought shaped by inequitable societies.
• Reflective Practice: Requires courage to confront historical and current inequities in order to move forward as a system.
• Quote:
  • "For effective multi solving, there's a kind of courage and a willingness to look at that historical legacy in order to go forward." – Dr. Sawin [16:33]

5. The Influence of Donella Meadows

• About Meadows: Co-author of Limits to Growth (1972), pioneer in systems analysis, and mentor to Dr. Sawin.
• Personal Impact: Meadows inspired Sawin both intellectually (through research and network building) and personally (by living her values in intentional community).
• Quote:
  • "She also influenced my life more personally because in addition to her research, she was one of the best examples I know of walking your talk." – Dr. Sawin [21:23]

6. Storytelling vs. Diagrams in Systems Thinking

• Writing Choice: Sawin deliberately limited diagrams/charts in her book to reach people who don’t intuitively connect with technical visualizations.
• Goal: Use stories to give language to the complex system expertise people already have through lived experience.
• Quote:
  • "We're all actually experts in complex systems. We are complex systems." – Dr. Sawin [24:21]

7. Fundamental Systems Thinking Concepts

• Stocks & Flows: Explained with practical examples (bathtub, library, housing), emphasizing that interventions should target inflows and outflows.
• Reinforcing (Positive) Feedback:
  • Can lead to exponential growth, for good (“going viral”) or for harm (disease, cancer).
  • Important to discern when to regulate vs. amplify reinforcing feedbacks.
• Quote:
  • "Pointing out a gap doesn't close a gap. I guess that would be what I learned in my years at the UN..." – Dr. Sawin [36:53]

8. UN Climate Negotiations & Limits of High-Level Approaches

• Personal Experience: Sawin participated in climate pledge analysis at UN negotiations.
• Shortcomings: While global discussions foster connection, repeated analyses show a persistent “emissions gap”—pledges don’t align with stated targets.
• Critical View: Decision-making in these forums is too “carbon-centric” and undervalues health, equity, and economic co-benefits.
• Quote:
  • "Within that UN process, it's what I call a carbon centric frame, they're really adding up tons of greenhouse gases, CO2 and others, but they aren't really adding up fewer cases of asthma, improvements in biodiversity, jobs and all the other benefits..." – Dr. Sawin [36:40]

9. Scale and Complexity in Multisolving

• Local Strengths: Multisolving is easier and more intuitive close to the local level where interconnectedness is lived experience.
• Scaling Up: Beyond the local, institutional silos hinder multisolving; systemic changes at higher levels (state, global) are needed to unleash its potential.
• Quote:
  • "I do believe multi solving is easier at closer and closer to the local level... but because there's a lot of power and resources at higher levels... we probably can't muster that only at the local level." – Dr. Sawin [40:09]

10. Advocacy, Change Movements, and Systems Leverage Points

• National/Global Advocacy: Historical movements (civil rights, clean water) show change is possible beyond the local, but more structural balance is needed between civil society and corporate interests for global progress.
• Leverage Points (via Donella Meadows):
  • Most effective systems change comes from shifting paradigms/worldviews.
  • Kuhn’s theory: Paradigm shifts are slow and resist anomalies until tension breaks and change finally emerges.
• Current State: Crises we’re experiencing are “anomalies” pushing our old paradigms to their breaking point.
• Quote:
  • "I believe there is this growing pressure of those anomalies and that the extent to which the theories that have held for the last 500 years are getting pretty shaky under our feet. Most people don't know what's going to come next." – Dr. Sawin [48:29]

11. Capitalism as a System

• Perspective: Markets and capitalism should be distinguished. Growth and innovation need not mean ever-increasing concentration of capital.
• Approach: Calls for experimenting with alternatives like the “well-being economy”—decision-making based on directly measuring progress toward real societal goods (poverty reduction, biodiversity).
• Quote:
  • "Markets as systems for exchanging goods and for driving innovation doesn't necessarily require also capital being allowed to grow exponentially and being allowed to get concentrated in fewer and fewer hands." – Dr. Sawin [51:15]

12. Crisis as a Catalyst for Multisolving

• Observation: Many successful multisolving case studies were launched in response to crisis (e.g., energy after Fukushima, jobs after the 2008 crash).
• Opportunity: If crisis responses are designed to meet multiple needs simultaneously, genuine progress and beauty can result, rather than just “coping.”
• Quote:
  • "We can meet those crises with an attitude toward what other needs can we meet at the same time. And if we can stay calm and not afraid and find ways to pull together, I think out of the crises we're facing, there is actually potential for really beautiful things and a lot of progress." – Dr. Sawin [54:00]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the main value of multisolving
  "If I'm the parent of a kid in the emergency room with another asthma attack, you might think asthma is the main, asthma prevention is the main benefit and climate change protection is a nice co-benefit." – Dr. Sawin [04:54]
• Describing feedback and systems change
  "The population of any animal or organism that's not in balance with its environment can have that shape of exponential growth." – Dr. Sawin [29:54]
• Reflection on the UN process
  "Pointing out a gap doesn't close a gap..." – Dr. Sawin [36:53]
• On paradigm shifts in society
  "People would rather stick with something that they know is harmful than jump into the unknown." – Dr. Sawin [49:35]

Key Timestamps by Theme

• [03:22] – Defining multisolving versus co-benefits
• [07:05] – Process and practice over replicating solutions
• [10:46] – Equity in multisolving
• [13:15] – Lived experience of inequity
• [16:18] – Systemic sources of inequality
• [18:54] – Donella Meadows and legacy
• [23:33] – Storytelling as a systems thinking teaching tool
• [25:34] – Stocks, flows, and resilience
• [29:04] – Reinforcing (positive) feedback
• [36:40] – Critique of UN climate negotiations
• [39:56] – Scaling multisolving: local vs. global
• [44:54] – Meadows’ leverage points & paradigm shifts
• [50:59] – Capitalism and systems leverage
• [52:59] – Lessons from crisis-driven multisolving

Closing

This rich dialogue offers a window into Dr. Elizabeth Sawin’s vision for a more integrated, equitable, and systems-aware approach to the world’s most pressing challenges. Her ideas are rooted in both rigorous systems theory and deeply human stories, emphasizing that the path forward requires learning, collaboration, and the courage to tackle multiple interconnected needs together.