Episode Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Carrie Lynn Evans
Guest: Dr. Elliot B. Hanowski
Book Discussed: Towards a Godless Dominion: Unbelief in Interwar Canada (McGill-Queen’s UP, 2023)
Date: March 9, 2026

Overview: Exploring Atheism and Unbelief in Interwar Canada

Carrie Lynn Evans interviews Dr. Elliot B. Hanowski about his new book, Towards a Godless Dominion, which delves into the history and experiences of atheists, secularists, and "unbelievers" in Canada during the 1920s and 1930s. The episode challenges the narrative of Canada as an inherently tolerant and secular nation, highlighting instead a period when Christianity dominated public life and anti-religious activism sparked fierce opposition.

Hanowski's research reveals vibrant, confrontational, and sometimes marginalized networks of rationalists, humanists, socialists, and communists, focusing on cities like Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and discussing their unique contexts and struggles. The conversation covers definitions of unbelief, the interplay with leftist politics, the public figures who championed skepticism, landmark legal battles, and regional variations in secular activism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Hanowski’s Background and Motivation

• Library & History: Hanowski describes his transition from working in libraries to earning a PhD in Canadian history, driven by an interest in religion and politics.
• Personal Perspective: He shares his journey from being raised as a Jehovah's Witness to becoming agnostic, fueling his scholarly curiosity about belief and unbelief.

  “For me, the questions of religion and belief and unbelief were very real in a way that maybe they aren’t to other people who don’t have those experiences.” — Dr. Elliot B. Hanowski (02:35)

2. Defining "Unbelief," "Rationalism," and "Christendom" (04:02–07:16)

• Evolving Terminology: "Unbelief" as an umbrella term; the shift from labels like "freethinker" and "secularist" to "rationalist" and later "humanist."
• Christendom Explained: Hanowski situates Canada, especially during this period, as living under a form of Christendom—where the state actively supports and defends Christianity.

  “Canada was still considered a Christian nation... the Canadian state needed to defend Christianity and persecute anybody who was opposed to Christianity.” — Hanowski (05:36)

• Comparison to Islamic Caliphate: Parallels are drawn between Christendom and concepts like the Islamic caliphate—both representing religiously anchored political order.

3. The Interplay of Socialism, Communism, and Secularism (07:16–10:29)

• Canadian Overlap: Unlike the U.S. and U.K., Canada’s atheist and socialist/communist groups had significant overlap, partly due to smaller population and cross-pollination of radical ideas.
• Divisions & Tensions: Some communists prioritized material conditions over anti-religious activism; others, like Albert St. Martin in Quebec, were too fiercely anti-religious even for fellow communists.

  “There’s no one correct stance... but there was a lot of ambiguity in the way the left and these unbelieving activists related to one another.” — Hanowski (09:35)

4. Marshall Govin: "Canada’s Professional Atheist" (11:23–17:53)

• Biography & Style: Govin, originally from New Brunswick, became a full-time free-thought speaker—his fiery rhetoric, mimicry, and public debates drew crowds of hundreds to thousands in Winnipeg (circa 1926–1940).
• Community Impact: He built the Winnipeg Rationalist Society, blending labor, socialist, and secularist interests, and attracted a diverse working-class audience.

  “He was very charismatic... he seems to have gotten his most success from this kind of confrontational approach to religious questions.” — Hanowski (16:31) “He would even get... like 3,000 people who came out to hear this debate.” — Hanowski (13:53)

• Gender Dynamics: Unlike many similar movements, Govin’s lectures attracted significant numbers of women (30-40% of membership).

5. The Winnipeg Rationalist Society and its Community (18:34–20:56)

• Demographics: Predominantly working-class, but included women, secular Jews, and progressive Unitarians.
• Role & Structure: The Society mirrored religious communities—lectures, music, collections—providing alternative social spaces for unbelievers, sustaining unity even during the Depression.

6. The Blasphemous Libel Trial of Ernest Victor Starry (1927) (21:57–28:57)

• Case Details: Sterry, a rationalist immigrant, published biting critique of Christianity, leading to Canada’s first blasphemous libel trial in English Canada.
• Public Reaction: While conservatives celebrated the prosecution, others—especially the Toronto Star—questioned the legitimacy of blasphemy laws.

  “There’s some terminology in the law that basically said... as soon as you do it in such a way that is designed to hurt the feelings of religious people, then it becomes blasphemous libel.” — Hanowski (23:37)

• Class Issues: Hanowski notes, “[Sterry] was a working class person... working class irreverence was punished, whereas a professor or even a minister... could get away with saying stuff that was more endless...” (28:11)

7. Toronto’s Rationalist Society vs. Christian Crusade (29:39–35:17)

• Religious Hegemony: Toronto was a stronghold of evangelical Protestantism; anti-secular backlash included the Canadian Christian Crusade.
• Free Speech Conflicts: The Rationalist Society (founded 1925) became a hub for diverse voices; their public meetings faced disruption, but the society left lasting impact.
• Shift to Politics: Some leaders, like Bert Levins, transitioned into socialist politics, reflecting broader questions about societal organization post-"banishing God."

8. The Meaning of "Fundamentalist" (35:17–37:54)

• Historical Usage: Initially a proud label for Christians subscribing to "The Fundamentals" (early 20th c.); the term only later acquired its negative or reactionary connotations.

9. Quebec: Anti-Clericalism and Radicalism Amid Catholic Power (37:54–46:18)

• Catholic Dominance & Clerical Nationalism: Quebec’s society was tightly interwoven with Catholicism—opponents like Albert St. Martin, a radical communist, faced fierce opposition, including violence and legal repression.
• Worker Education & Secular Relief: St. Martin’s Université Ouvrière educated laborers, promoted atheism, and fought for secular administration of public relief, challenging both Church and Communist Party orthodoxy.

  “St. Martin faced a lot of pushback, obviously from the Catholic Church... at one time they came and smashed up one of his meeting halls and took all the library and burned it on the street outside in the name of Catholicism.” — Hanowski (42:12)

10. Regional Differences: British Columbia and Nova Scotia (46:48–60:58)

British Columbia (47:42–54:21)

• Early Secularism: BC displayed lower church membership from early on, with a longstanding tradition of skepticism attributed to settler demographics and social factors.
• Faith Healing Controversy: A 1920s religious revivalist’s faith-healing campaign spurred secularist pushback and provided a rare platform for rationalist voices. Colorful figures such as “the Red Dentist,” W.J. Curry, linked radical politics and atheistic lectures.

  “People say, oh, they left God behind when they crossed the Rocky Mountains.” — Hanowski (47:49) “If you can just avoid religion, then why should you get up in arms about it?” — Hanowski (53:48)

Nova Scotia (54:21–60:58)

• Conservative Landscape: Minimal organized unbelief, but major controversy erupted over a brief mention of evolution in a high school textbook (1933).
• Atheist Voices: Socialist and secularist figures used the moment to advocate for evolution and critique religious narrative-dominated education.

  "[Evolution] was important not only to secularists and atheists, but also to socialists because... society itself was evolving and changing..." — Hanowski (57:40)

• Leftist Caution: Most radicals kept religious criticism subdued, recognizing church loyalty among working-class Nova Scotians.

11. Canada as an Archipelago of Unbelief (61:57–65:41)

• Lack of Coordination: The different regional organizations of rationalists and unbelievers had little contact; Canadian isolation and geography made coordination difficult.
• Impact Amidst Small Numbers: Though unbelievers comprised a tiny minority, they exerted outsized cultural influence—both as “daring” radicals and as flashpoints for controversy.

  “There was kind of this sense in which... they were these radicals who were like pushing the boundaries.” — Hanowski (63:05)

• Canadian Secularization: Canada secularized rapidly after the 1950s, now ranking among the world’s most secular societies.

12. Contrasts with United States & Broader Reflections (65:41–67:20)

• Secularization Paths: Discussing why Canada secularized faster than the US, despite not having an established church; noting that until the 1950s, Canada was seen as the more religious nation.

  “Up until the 1950s, Canada was considered often... to be more religious than the United States... So, yeah, it’s quite interesting to see how quickly it changed.” — Hanowski (66:48)

13. Hanowski’s Current Work & Future Projects (68:07–69:49)

• Shifting to the 19th Century: Hanowski is researching an earlier generation of free thinkers in Toronto and Montreal (ca. 1870–1911), seeking out rare sources to chart the deeper roots of Canadian unbelief.

  “There was an earlier generation of rationalists... So I’ve been trying to go back and read their newspapers and... find out more about them.” — Hanowski (68:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He would even get... like 3,000 people who came out to hear this debate.” — Hanowski on Marshall Govin’s public impact (13:53)
• “There’s this quip... they left God behind when they crossed the Rocky Mountains.” — Hanowski on BC secularism (47:49)
• “St. Martin faced a lot of pushback, obviously from the Catholic Church... they smashed up one of his meeting halls and took all the library and burned it on the street outside in the name of Catholicism.” — Hanowski (42:12)
• “If you can just avoid religion, then why should you get up in arms about it?” — Hanowski on BC’s approach to secularism (53:48)
• “I found some letters from people making these very rationalist or secularist arguments in local newspapers.” — Hanowski on atheists’ response to textbook evolution controversy in Nova Scotia (56:20)
• “There was kind of this sense in which... they were these radicals who were like pushing the boundaries.” — Hanowski (63:05)
• “Up until the 1950s, Canada was considered often... to be more religious than the United States...” — Hanowski (66:48)

Structure with Timestamps

• [02:02] Dr. Hanowski’s Background & Motivation
• [04:02] Defining Unbelief, Rationalism, Humanism, Christendom
• [07:16] Socialism, Communism, and the Secular Left
• [11:23] Marshall Govin: Life, Influence, Performance
• [17:53] The Winnipeg Rationalist Society—Community & Gender
• [21:57] The Blasphemous Libel Trial of Ernest Sterry
• [29:39] Toronto’s Rationalist Society & Anti-Atheist Pushback
• [35:17] “Fundamentalism” and Its Shifting Meaning
• [37:54] Quebec’s Anti-Clerical & Communist Movement
• [46:48] Unbelief on the Coasts—British Columbia (47:42), Nova Scotia (54:21)
• [61:57] National Overview: Fragmentation, Influence, Secularization
• [65:41] Contrasts with the U.S. & Reflections on Rapid Secularization
• [68:07] Hanowski’s Next Project—19th Century Rationalists

This episode offers a detailed, colorful exploration of the unlikely, often embattled roots of Canadian secularism—giving voice to its “daring” agitators and placing them in their crucial social and political contexts. Perfect for listeners curious about Canadian history, secularism, and the intersections of religion and radical politics.