Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (2:42)

And before we enter our conversation, Emmanuel, what is the transnational world?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (2:48)

It's a good question. Of course, the transnational world can be understood in many ways. So you could also have looked at trade flows between. In the case of my book, I focus on human mobility and communication across borders. So I look at every every type of mobility and communication that transcends national borders. And I was particularly interested in how far this transnational mobility goes. So, yeah, it's about human interaction across national borders, basically.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (3:24)

And what inspired you first to write a book about what is so often called the global village?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (3:31)

I personally was, of course, always interested in international mobility, having myself moved. For example, When I was 16, I lived in Ecuador for a year in Latin America. And I had always had this interest in global connectedness because of that. But then, specifically after I finished my master's degree in Sociology in 2012, I started working in a project called Horizontal Until Europeanization, which was about the question of whether people in Europe increasingly interact across national borders and whether that creates some sense of community, some common identity in Europe. And I really like that focus of that research. I was very interested in that. But I also thought that was perhaps a bit Eurocentric, because in other world regions, people also interact across national borders. And that's where the idea for this book, which originated from my PhD project, began to kind of generalize this approach and start a comparative analysis of transnational mobility and communication in different world regions and to see where that leads us.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (4:47)

And what surprised you while writing this book? Maybe both during the writing process itself, but already at the beginning of your research and this entire journey.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (5:00)

Yeah, it was quite a long journey with a few detours. So in the beginning, I was also interested to see the second part of this equation. So not just looking at mobility and communication across borders, but also understanding whether that leads to some kind of common identity. So I was also going to research whether people identify with their world region, but that turned out to be quite difficult to measure, because when you ask people that, do you identify with Latin America, with Africa, with Europe? Many people will say yes. But the question remains whether that really means something or whether that is just a propensity to agree with questions. So I was a bit unhappy about that. I was also not so sure whether it's really that important or whether that really tells us something real about the world. So at some point, I started to just focus on the mobility and interaction networks, which are more tangible. And I was really surprised to find how strong the structuring role of physical space is of geographic distance is in these mobility networks. Because I came from this social scientific discourse where an idea is very prominent, that space has lost its structuring force. So that we live in a globalized world, in this global village where everything is connected, that we live in a digital world where the Internet has led to a sit, where global Connectedness is very strong. So there's even this death of distance hypothesis, there's a death of geography hypothesis, and a shrinking world is a very prominent term. But despite these ideas, these very dominant ideas of globalization and a flat world, a global village, I found that space has this strong struct force and that most mobility and communication happens within world regions and to neighboring countries. And that this is also something that stays intact over time. So I looked at data from 1960 to 2010, and I find that there is no diminishing role of physical space. So that is kind of the main finding and something that surprised me a lot.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (7:29)

You are a quantitative sociologist, but one who's very interested in theory. What does your research look, look like in concrete terms? How can we imagine the way you collect data, you analyze it, and you derive theoretical patterns or explanations from it?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (7:46)

So maybe let's start with the theoretical side. So I of course looked at the existing literature and I tried to identify four paths to what I perceived as a research gap. That is the lack of analyses about the role of world regions in this transnational world. And I noticed that there are many studies look at specific in transnational studies that look at specific destinations and specific origin communities. And they are very important, but they cannot cover the whole picture, so to speak. And then there's also this world society theories that argue that we live in a world society, but they also dominantly don't take world regions into account. So for example, world systems theory by Immanuel Wallerstein is a very prominent theory, but he argues that there's this core periphery structure and world regions don't feature very prominently in that theory, just to give two examples. And then there's this sociology of Europe where this horizontal Europeanization project also comes from. And they have this idea that one world region is a potential frame where society building takes place. But then it's very focused on Europe and just that region and doesn't take other regions into account. And then I was also in Inspired by Political Science, where there is a tradition of comparative regionalism, both an old one from the 1950s, 1960s, and also a newer one, but it's political science. So they are more interested in international organizations such as the European Union or the African Union and unassur, and comparing how they work and from these four perspectives, I try to argue that what is really missing is a comparative sociology of regional integration that, yeah, looks at the role of world regions and what role they play when we look at networks of mobility and communication that transcend national borders. So that is kind of the theory side. And then on the empirical side, trying to test this theoretical approach empirically, I tried to gather as much data from existing sources that I could find at the time. So looking at organizations like the United nations or UNESCO that gather information about flows of people and communication between countries worldwide. So I had to work with what was there. I couldn't go out and try to collect data myself, because if I want to have the global picture, that's really impossible for a PhD researcher alone. But these organizations have quite some data. And I managed to obtain data for five different types of mobility, I.e. migrants, tourists, students, asylum seekers, and refugees. And then I also have three types of communication, and that was online friendships. So Facebook friendships in 2011, remittances. So the money that migrants send to their families and their country of origin, which I also argue as a kind of communication. And then international phone calls also. And yeah, and then I try to go back in time as far as possible. The maximum was 1960. Of course, that's not available for all types of mobility and communication. And, yeah, I once wanted to get a global picture, so I included mobility and communication between 196 countries, which leads to a network of around 38,000 country pairs. So that is kind of the empirical data I have. So I had to work with what was available. But quite a bit of information was available, I think.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (11:53)

And like you just said, your Data spans from 1960 until 2010. What would you say does this particular time frame capture and reveal about the emergence of global connections or the continuation of them?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (12:11)

So it's a period that coincides with this area of globalization and of increasing economic wealth in many parts of the world, which also then coincides with a huge expansion of this mobility and communication networks. So we see that over the decades, there's an enormous increase in the amount of mobility and communication between countries worldwide. For some types of mobility, it's even exponential. So when we look at the number of students moving between countries, this is really an exponential curve where there's very little mobility in 1960 and then in 2010, it's enormous. So, yeah, it's a world that is becoming increasingly interconnected. And that's kind of an important starting point also for this analysis.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (13:07)

And it is a comparative approach in which you bring together data on migration, trade, communication, travel, and you touched upon it before. But why was it so important to look at these different kinds of connections to get us further in our understanding how the world is connected?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (13:29)

Yes, I wanted to go beyond migration Research. So in a lot of research on migration itself is very dominant and it's perceived. Also, when you look at the public discourse on mobility, migration is very dominant. Also, the backlash against migration and open borders, migration is omnipresent. But when you look at mobility more broadly, you will find that migration is just a very small share of all mobility. So in newer research, we find that less than 1% of all international trips are migratory moves. And that is really lost in public discourse, I think. And I also wanted to make that more visible in this book, because when you think about how people interact, then it's. Migration is quite rare in comparison, and people interact a lot more in other types of mobility. So be it tourist trips, be it business trips, student trips, that's all something that defines the transnational world and social life, social interaction across the national border. So I wanted to take that into account. And then the idea is, of course, also to have different comparative axes. So on the one hand, I wanted to compare different world regions, I wanted to make comparisons over time, and then also to make comparisons across these different types of mobility and communication.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (15:00)

And kind of going back to your theoretical side here, I find it amazing how you bring theory in. So what is it that we can really learn when applying Wallerstein's world system theory, Meier's world polity, and Luhmann's world society? Why did you choose them? What did they tell you? How could you really use them to make sense of your day? Do.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (15:27)

Yes. So these are three examples of theories that kind of try to understand the global system. So they are relevant because they look at the whole picture, the overall picture. And maybe looking at Wallerstein, as I mentioned before, he has this idea of this core and periphery structure. And his theory is less about mobility and migration and communication, and more about trade and economic dependencies and the exploitation of the periphery through the core and the stability and stabilization of that system of exploitation and why countries in the periphery can't catch up. He talks less about mobility, but where he does, he has this idea that people move predominantly from the periphery to the core. So here we again have the prominence of migration and the idea that people want to improve their economic conditions and therefore move to the richer core. And people also move within the core. But he argues that people don't really move within the periphery, so from one periphery country to another periphery country. And that's something where I contrast with my model, where the idea is that world regions are really prominent and people move more within world regions. And so it's a Different model that I contrast my own idea with and then look which is more empirically adequate, I think. And yeah, when we look at Luhmann's theory, he has this idea that in the past there were these regional societies in the pre modern past, but now we live in this world society where there is no regional differentiation, except perhaps in the political system where you have nation states. And I argue that here he also misses that space has a strong structuring role even today, and not just in the political system, but also when you look at how people move. But in Luhmann's theory, actors are quite absent. And he has a very abstract notion of communication which is not really measurable. And yeah, there is no space for space in Luhmann's theory. And that's also something I assess critically. And then also for the neo institutionalist theories, yeah, it's interesting to look at the theory, but it doesn't adequately capture how people move in space. And that's where I really wanted to come in and make these empirical assessments.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (18:23)

And did then in the next step, working on these large scale data and network analysis over time, the kind of questions that you asked as a sociologist?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (18:38)

I would say so, yes, because the next thing I did then empirically was to look at whether my idea of clustering, of mobility and communication really takes place within world regions. And so I did that. So I applied, I experimented with different methods, for example, looking at the density of mobility and communication within world regions. And I found that, that it's really the case that in all world regions globally mobility and communication is more dense within the world regions than between them. So we live in a regionalized world and not so much in a globalized world when it comes to mobility and communication. And that then led to the path to the further analysis in the book to try to better understand why that happens. So why do we really live in this regionalized world? Why does mobility and communication cluster within world regions? And that kind of led me to the next steps where I look closer at this relation between or looking first at factors that may be responsible for this clustering and then finding that it's really geographic distance as the main structuring factor and understanding that pattern even more. And that was something that was not clear at the beginning that I would look at into these things more closely. So it was really a journey that led me to, into a new direction.

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Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (21:51)

And did that finding that it is geographical distance that is so decisive, then bring you to new theoretical insights make you reconsider your perception of sociology? Maybe.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (22:09)

I think so, yes. Because as I mentioned in the beginning, the starting point for me was this horizontal Europeanization project. So a field called the sociology of Europe, where you have a very prominent idea that what is really enhancing mobility and migration across borders in Europe is political integration. So the European Union with its free movement regime and also the Schengen area, and the fact that you don't need passports, you don't need to apply for visas, that is the main driving factor that explains why there's so much mobility across borders in Europe. But what my analysis then really showed is that. So I looked at the influence of different structuring factors such as political and legal arrangements, cultural historical factors, economic and technological factors, and then also geographic factors, how that structures the mobility networks. And what I find is that all these factors matter and political factors do explain mobility and communication. Also historical and colonial ties, for example, or former colonial ties explain current Mobility flows. But what really explains the regional structure of these mobility networks is not so much these political, economic, and cultural factors, but really the geographic factor of geographic, physical distance. And when you think about what explains so much mobility across borders in Europe, it's really underestimated the role that the small geographic size of Europe plays. So that is something that was really new for me and something that is really lacking in this field where it's always about political integration in Europe. So that's one example of where I think this approach leads to some new theoretical or conceptual insights. Also, when you think back about this discourse on globalization, where you have this depth of distance arguments and the idea that we live in a fully globalized world, I think that my research shows that this is really an exaggeration. And I argue in the book that it's not so much globalization that we see, but more mobilization. So a lot more people move today between countries than in the past. That's really striking and very clear. But people move more at all distances, and they move a lot more at short distances, and they also move more at long distances, which leads to a situation where this spatial structure remains the same. And we still live in a world where most mobility happens over short distances to neighboring countries. And global moves are very rare. So, yeah, so I put this globalization theme that was very predominant also in the 1990s a bit into perspective and show that at least when we look at mobility and communication, it was a bit exaggerated and the empirical picture is a bit different. And then also, yeah, as I mentioned, the comparison to this core periphery network idea by Wallerstein, it may apply in the economic sphere, but when we look at mobility and communication, there is a lot of mobility within what he would call the periphery. So also in African countries, or in Asian countries, or in Latin American countries, people move predominantly to neighboring countries in these regions. And these are strong mobility networks as well. And it's really underestimated in his theory. So it's simply not true that people move mostly to richer countries. They mostly move to neighboring countries, countries.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (26:01)

And in that, your maps also really show that national borders still matter, even in a highly connected world, and even between neighboring countries, or maybe especially between. In what ways do borders structure these interactions?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (26:19)

Yeah, maybe that's something that is even more a topic of further research I did beyond this book. So we also did studies about the border permeability in different countries of the world, where we look at how many roads lead across nation state borders in different parts of the world, where we see there are dramatic differences so some borders are more permeable in terms of infrastructure than others. We also look at how passports and how much they cost and how difficult it is and visas, how difficult it is it is to get these visas and passports, which are also part of border regimes. Of course, we see a world where borders still function as exclusionary things, where some parts of the world population are very mobile and others are excluded and encounter all kinds of difficulties when they want to be mobile. But often these border regimes are also something that are strongest between world regions, and moves to neighboring countries are in many parts of the world easier. And we also hear in this regard Europe is not so exceptional anymore. Often Europe is in the European Union, and the Schengen regime is presented as the. The one case where this is possible. But we also have other free movement regimes around the world in Latin America and Western Africa, for example. So, yeah, borders are still quite relevant in this world. Again, it's not a fully globalized world where everyone interacts with everyone else and everyone can move globally. It's different.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (28:14)

Your book had to stop somewhere and you had to end your data collection, and that was in 2010. We look a little bit ahead. I know this is not part of your written book, but what would your hypothesis be? How mobility now changes in the last 15 years and kind of where do you see potential trajectories on how these forms of mobility will change over time?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (28:42)

Yes, it's an important question. In our newer analyses of more current data, we see that these exponential increases in some kinds of mobility have continued until 2019. And then we see a clear impact of the COVID pandemic, where mobility decreases dramatically. When we look at air traffic data, for example, we see decreases of 50% and more depending on the part of the world region. So, yeah, this exponential rise has at least temporarily been reduced dramatically. And the question now is how it will continue after 2020. We see that there's some recovery in recent years, but at the same time, we have the ecological and climate crises which lead to a situation where recovery and a continuation of the previous exponential path would be really catastrophic. And we have to rethink, I think, how much transnational mobility is desirable and whether or not all trips are really necessary. So it's really an open path into the future. I think it's clear that the previous trajectory cannot continue, but we will see, as newer data becomes available, what it will look like.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (30:12)

You write in the beginning of your book that it took you quite some years to finish it, and I wonder how you experienced that. Time of reflection, research and writing and how world politics and world events actually around you influenced the writing process and now the publication and speaking about the book years after.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (30:37)

Yeah, a lot of things. It was quite a journey. As I said, it started in 2012 and I finished the PhD in the first version in 2017. And then I had to turn it into a book, which took a bit of time at Princeton University Press. The revision rounds also worked quite extensive. And then the COVID pandemic started and there was also a shortage of paper, which led to delay in the printing of the book. So I could directly feel the impact of that crisis. So then the book finally came out in 2022. Yeah, so. And we had, in between, we had the first presidency of Donald Trump and we see the impact on that and what it has on the idea of open borders, both in terms of tariffs and the exclusion and repressions against migrants. And not just in the U.S. but in many parts of the world. When you think about 2016 in Europe and in Germany, for example, there was still in the refugee, so called refugee crisis, there was still quite a strong idea of welcoming migrants and welcoming open borders. And things have shifted quite dramatically since then. So, yeah, many things have changed and it's clearer now than at the beginning when I started writing that book, that perhaps this era of globalization and open borders is. Has come to an end and we are in a new era. And also, yeah, I think the example of the Facebook friendships also the digital sphere has become more. More complex and more, yeah, scattered. We have new networks, we have, yeah, Twitter has been disrupted and yeah, Facebook is not as present anymore. So yeah, it's a world in flux. And that also, I think leads to necessity for constant new research that updates the situation and covers these new developments.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (32:56)

Thank you. And for my final question, I'd like to ask you. The title of your book is Mapping the Transnational World and that suggests a very visual and relational approach. What does this word mapping really mean for you in the context of your book and as a researcher, on the.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (33:19)

One hand, it is a book that has quite a few visualizations. So I work with these network visualization on actual world maps because I think they really help to illustrate what these structures look like, finding these different clusters of countries and that helps understanding the world. But on the other hand, mapping here is also meant more in a metaphorical or analytical way. So it's not just about the maps, but it's also about measuring the relations and distances and clusters and going beyond just terms. So for example, it's a critique also of the term transnational. For example, when you look at the field of international relations, they classically use transnational just to denote anything that goes beyond the nation state. So anything that is transnational is by definition global. And it misses completely the role of world regions and how strong they feature in these networks. So when I talk about mapping the transnational world, it's also about providing a more accurate empirical picture, not just with visualization, but also with statistics and with calculations and by a different method and to construct a comprehensive picture of the state of the transnational world.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (34:50)

Thank you. And Emmanuel, what is it that you really want people to take away from your book?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (34:59)

Yeah, perhaps it's this main message that the transnational world is not a fully globalized world. We live in a world structured by geographic distances. So there are things that separate us and it's hard to overcome these geographic distances. And if you think back about this initial theory that transnational interaction is something that also can create a sense of community, I think that's really a problem also because it means we are not as globally connected as we perhaps think we are. And that also can explain a lack of global sense of community, lack of global solidarity. And I think that's something to. To keep in mind, an important factor if you want to understand how the social world is structured today. And also think about public discourse and that it's simply not true that everyone wants to come to richer countries and all the world is standing in front of our borders wanting to get in. That's a really inaccurate picture. That does not describe the empirical reality. I think that's two important messages from the this book.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (36:12)

Fantastic. Thank you. Yeah. And then last but not least, what are you working on now? What questions are currently occupying your mind?

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (36:24)

Yeah, we have recently started to work, continue our work on visas, looking at how visas are very unequal and some people have to wait for long times to obtain visas and others don't need to apply for visas us at all. So this aspect of inequality, you're also looking at how unequal mobility is between world regions based on newer data. So this aspect, how unequal this transnational world also is, is something I am focusing on at the moment. And we are producing newer studies based on more recent data on that.

Dr. Hanna Pfuhl (37:07)

Thank you so much. We are looking forward to read the next studies and books that will come out from this research. Thank you so much, Emmanuel.

Professor Emmanuel Deutschmann (37:15)

Thank you for having me, Hannah. It was a pleasure.

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