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Emily Hund, "The Influencer Industry: The Quest for Authenticity on Social Media" (Princeton UP, 2023)
00:49:02
An interview with Emily Hund
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Princeton University Press Ideas Podcast, a joint production of Princeton University Press and the New Books Network. I'm Mark Clovis and today I'm speaking with Emily Hund, author of the book the Influencer the Quest for Authenticity on Social Media. Emily, welcome to the New Books Network.
- [00:24]
B
Thank you for having me.
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A
Well, thanks for agreeing to be on our show. I was wondering if you could start us off by telling our listeners something about yourself.
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B
So I am a research affiliate at the center on Digital Culture and Society at the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg School for Communication. I have been studying the influencer industry for the better part of a decade. Prior to beginning my research career, I actually worked in publishing. And that was when I to sort of witness the rise of sort of early bloggers, early influencers, and started to have a lot of questions about what digital creators, what kind of impact they were going to have on our media environment. And those questions drove me to pursue a PhD on the topic. And then jumping off of my PhD research, I kind of dove right into extending that research into a book project. Project. And here we are.
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A
It is fascinating because the nature of your book is kind of an early history, maybe not the famous history 1.0 of journalism, but it's a bit more developed than that. And yet, as you point out at the beginning of your book, in so many ways influence industry has a very large prehistory. I was wondering if you could perhaps explain a bit about that prehistory. Basically, what are the antecedents? And how can we think about influencing as something that has been with our culture and our society for really hundreds of years.
- [02:06]
B
Yes. So the idea of influence has been something that philosophers and thinkers have considered for hundreds, if not thousands of years really. And so it's always been a topic that has interested in captivated people. How are people influenced, who is influential, why are they influential, these sorts of things. And then so when I started looking at this, I, I found that in the early 20th century is when we start to see a sort of shift from sort of more philosophical, I guess musings about influence to influence becomes a subject of social scientific investigation in the early 20th century. You know, we have the, the birth of the advertising industry and we have all of these things going on in the world. You know, the rise of fascism in Europe and all these concerns about propaganda and, and so social scientists and, and you know, sociology was a, as a fairly new discipline at that time as well. And they start Getting really interested in, okay, how do we isolate and analyze social. Social influence? How is it that people, how do they get influenced? And so there's this burgeoning field of research that just grows and develops, you know, over the course of the 20th century and eventually makes its way into marketing and, and then sort of mainstream conversations. And we. And over time, these particular ideas about what it means to be an influential person sort of develop. And so there's this long, long history that I chart in the book of ideas of influence and how they've changed over time. And then we also have some other factors that come into play that again I get into in depth in the beginning of the book. But things like the. So cultural factors like the rise of personal branding in the late 20th century and technological factors, of course, not, not only social media, but even prior to that, just the birth of the Internet and this whole idea that you can go online and self publish. And there's this whole sort of technological history to people bringing influence online and developing this idea of digital influence. And then in the early 21st century, of course, we have the sort of the beginning of the demise of journalism and, you know, publishing industries really facing a lot of problems that change advertisers behavior and have advertisers looking for digital outlets that will presumably give them more bang for their buck. And then sort of the last straw, as I look at it, as I look at it, is the recession in 2008, which sort of unmoored huge numbers of people from their jobs and from more traditionally planned career paths, if you will, against the backdrop of all this optimism about these new social media platforms and the Internet and this idea that you could go, you know, use these platforms to sort of like take control of your narrative and, you know, construct your personal brand online, maybe even, you know, get work, make some money and this sort of thing. And so the recession really is the, you know, like the last straw, like I said, that drove so many people online. And. And then we see this rise of the digital influencer.
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A
That for me was one of the real revelations of your book was seeing just how pivotal the recession was. I mean, it was one of these things where in my mind I had this idea that there's this growing influencer industry and there were these events that were taking place at the same time. And I didn't really appreciate the sense of causation that you describe in your book. I was wondering if you could perhaps help us to understand exactly when you're talking about an influencer influence, your industry what distinguishes it from the sort of, you know, influence, you know, marketing concepts, ideas, you know, industry that existed prior to that period? And what were the parameters that you used in terms of defining it when you were undertaking your research and writing your book?
- [07:08]
B
So if you look at other industries that aim to influence, if you will, so, you know, I guess the closest corollary might be just like the traditional advertising industry that you might think of. There are, there are, so there are of course, these other cultural industries that, you know, have a goal of sort of shaping our culture, influencing people to buy or to behave in particular ways. But the influence, what makes the influencer industry distinct? You know, they do overlap, of course, and they work together. But what makes the influencer industry distinct is the fact that they are using influence as the sort of commodity that they're trading on. So they are literally trying to measure. And so, and I should preface this by saying that things have gotten much more, you know, sophisticated now than they were 10 to 15 years ago when this was starting out. But thinking back to those early days, they were literally, you know, trying to measure individuals influence online. There was this idea that like, we can look at this person's followers or, you know, you know, their various engagement metrics online and we can, we can literally say they are this influential and we can assign a value to their influence and then, and then we can give it financial value as well and say they are, you know, and then an advertiser or, you know, a brand can say, this person is worth this much to me. Their influence is worth, you know, X amount of money to me. And so that, that is what really got it going as its own sort of distinct industry. And then we see all these different entrants to the field who are all sort of, they're, they're sort of working together and they're also sort of tussling over this idea of, of what influence is, how best to measure it, how do we shape it into a product that we can understand and sell?
- [09:19]
A
That was one of the things I thought was most fascinating as well, was the idea of how you have this emerging industry. And as you describe later in the book, you see how the legacy industries that are associated with it are attempting to interpret it, harness it, understand it in various ways. But before we get to that, I want to get back to this early emergence. Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on how exactly it looked as it emerged in the wake of the recession, the forms it took, and how exactly it came to become such an important dynamic in, in marketing? And advertising in consumerism.
- [10:08]
B
Sure. So prior to the recession, of course, bloggers had existed and, you know, people. People were using the Internet to self publish generally in various ways. But these numbers were pretty small, you know, in the grand scheme of things. And then in the wake of the recession, we have again, which kind of coincided with these different technological factors like the rise of, you know, blogger, which is like a software that makes it really easy for people without technical expertise to. To set up blogs for themselves. And then of course, you know, Twitter, YouTube and then later Instagram, all these platforms are sort of just blossoming at that time. And so when there was this sort of unmooring, like I said, of so many people from their more traditional jobs, we see a lot of people start using these platforms with the hopes of managing their careers in some way. So something that really struck me throughout my research was how much every single person that I interviewed, and I'm talking so influencers of varying sizes, you know, people with, you know, small followings of a couple thousand, up to millions of followers, as well as marketers that I interviewed, people who work for brands, talent managers, you know, all these different people who are involved in the influencer industry in some way. Almost without fail, I. Every single interviewee, when I asked them to tell me, you know, just, you know, their professional story, how they got to where they were, why everyone would point back to the recession. And this was consistent across ages, you know, and, you know, backgrounds. And again, like I said, the jobs that they're currently doing in the industry, it was consistent across all of these. Everyone looked back at that time and said, well, you know, I was, I was just starting out and I. And I got laid off. Or I had been working for 20 years in PR and I saw that PR was dying and I. And I needed to do something else or, you know, all these different stories. But that was like the most strikingly consistent threat against, across all of these interviews. And so people were again going to these platforms and saying, okay, I, you know, I'm out of work, or I am underemployed right now. I got to keep myself afloat somehow. I'm going to start posting, I'm going to start a blog. I'm going to start doing something to let the world know that I'm still here, I still have expertise in my professional domain, and hopefully I can either get some consulting work or network with other people or something, or at least just keep myself occupied while I am looking for work. And so these early bloggers and influencers really they really were, for the most part, you know, blogging about their expertise or things that they were passionate about. And so now that, that idea that, like, oh, we do what we, what we love and like, we're passionate about this now, that has really, you know, obviously taken on a life of its own. And we get into that later and I, and I get into that later in the book about how that, you know, has, has sort of, that narrative has sort of run away and become a little problematic. But that, that early wave really was, for the most part, people just trying to figure something out to keep themselves afloat. And some of these people were. Ended up cultivating, you know, sizable or really loyal audiences with, with their posts. And so again, like, several, several influencers who I interviewed who were part of that sort of early wave of influencers, if you will, they too had really consistent stories of I was just blogging or posting or, you know, using Pinterest, whatever to try to keep myself afloat. And then all of a sudden I realized I had this audience. And then before I know it, brands are contacting me. And I'm, and I'm thinking, what, what, like, what's going on? You want to pay me? And so, and so, and then, you know, of course, give it, you know, given the economic circumstances there, a lot of them said, yeah, what a, what a great surprise. You want to pay me for this? Sure, of course. And so that, that was kind of what it looked like in the, in the early days. And, you know, like I said, there was also this crisis in print media. And so advertisers were looking online, like, where can I, you know, put my messages and make it really, you know, worth my while and achieve my aims? And so that's how they, you know, that's how they started, you know, looking at bloggers and things like that and, you know, offering them deals. And so that's kind of how this started out. And it was very, you know, everyone was just kind of figuring it out as they, as they went along. And then by, you know, a couple years in, you know, say, you know, 2009, 2010, 2011, then we see, then it becomes, you know, more sort of well established. Okay, There are these digital influencers, brands are working with them that is giving these influencers sort of like clout in, in various other cultural industries. You know, at the time I was working in magazines, and so I, so the, you know, fashion bloggers were obviously sort of front and center for us there, but they, but, you know, the bloggers across sectors were Starting to, you know, gain clout. And people were starting to say, okay, who are these people? Why are the brands paying so much attention to them? What's going on here? There's, it seems like there's a lot of money changing hands. Is there? What's going on? And then we see this rise of sort of these influence marketing agencies who are, who then start developing, like just one is popping up every day, it seemed like at that time, offering services like, hey, we are going to help you make these deals. We're going to broker the deals between these digital influencers and brands, or we're going to just help the brands like, you know, pinpoint what influencers to work with, or we're going to offer, you know, large scale sort of like measurement services or. So there's all these different firms popping up under this sort of umbrella generally of influencer marketing agencies. And they're all trying to sort of find their niche and figure out how, you know, how they can get a piece of the pie. And so that's when the industry really starts to expand in the early 2010s and really starts seeking. First of all, it's growing just in size and in the number of people who are involved in the amount of money that is being poured into it. And then it's kind of all these different groups. Then. Now we've got marketers, we've got brands, we've got influencers. They're all sort of trying to work together, but also look out for their own best interests and also keep this thing going because it seems, because it's, you know, seems promising and seems fun. And so they're, they're kind of starting to, you know, the wheels of the industry are starting to really, you know, kick into gear then.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, that's the. It's so funny when you think about how it goes quickly from being something they do in their spare time to something that they have to put this enormous amount of cultivation into. And that was one of the things you talk about when you're describing the influence industry is all the factors that have to come into play with that, how they have to think about maintaining. And this gets to the subtitle of your sense of authenticity. They have to. It's great that they have this audience, but now they have to maintain it because now it's their livelihood and the challenges that that poses for them.
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B
Right. That changes the calculus and it changes the stakes of their work too, a lot. And so, yeah, so that really was the reason that a lot of these early influencers audiences, you know, went to them as far as they can understand, as far as the influencers themselves can understand. And as they tell it is, you know, their audiences looked at them as they. They were real, they were authentic. They were just people out here, you know, starting blogs or YouTube channels or what have you about things that they were really into. And, and then. And so audiences were like, this is very refreshing. I enjoy getting my. Especially, you know, in an industry like fashion that's sort of, you know, elitist, closed off, very, you know, very hard to break into, very steeped in, you know, privilege and things like that. All of a sudden it's, you know, there are these people who are offering, like, really smart commentary and seem much more accessible than, like, Vogue or something like that. And so, yeah, so that, that drew a lot of people to it in the beginning. But then, of course, then that becomes, you know, your. Your bread and butter. It's like they, they. They like you because you're authentic. And how do you maintain that? And, and then really, then when we start to see this notion of authenticity sort of become detached, if you will, and sort of take on a life of its own, is when the industry, in that period, when the industry was, you know, powering up, if you will, and we have all these measurement tools and selection, you know, tools for selecting influencers and things like that entering the space. Because now they're trying to take. They're taking something that, you know, this idea of authenticity, which, you know, for pretty much throughout history, you know, we. We think of authenticity as a social construction, something that is sort of, you know, evaluated and agreed upon, you know, in social groups. And then it kind of becomes this industrial construction, which is something. I argue in the book that it's something that is sort of defined and given value by these players in the industry, and it's directly tied to commercial value.
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A
One of the things you then go on to address is how as it grows and becomes an industry, how it begins to draw a great deal of attention, how you discuss a few of the more spectacular controversies surrounding it. You address this interesting question. I misconfessed. I never really thought about it until I read your book, which is the notion of regulation. And then you also discuss how legacy companies tried or sought to adapt influencers to influencers in order to remain relevant. I was wondering if you could perhaps explain a bit about some of that backlash that influencers experienced in the 2000 teens, and also how it worked. Was that, in effect, the broader marketing environment adapted to influencers?
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B
Sure. So yeah, so up until the mid 2010s or mid to late 2010s, if you will. I think of that period as a period where the industry was really just expanding, seeking efficiency, introducing all these new tools and processes, and also introducing. People were just flocking to the space because, you know, we saw these. These sort of early influencers who seem to be, you know, having a great time and making all this money and all that. That was sort of like the public face of the industry. And so that sent so many people, you know, online, you know, to these platforms especially, you know, Instagram was just blossoming at that time. So there was just like this. This sort of glut of content and a lot of, like, aesthetic mimicry. So, you know, people who, when it seemed like something worked, you know, something was. Got really popular on Instagram, a lot of people would sort of then try to mimic the look to, you know, find their own success. And for the most part, this was. This was going on. And, you know, people who were. People saw it, of course, you know, regular users, you went. You would encounter the content when you. When you use social media. And people who worked in the industry obviously were aware of what was going on. But as far as broad public awareness of the influencer industry and what and where this content was coming from, that we saw in our feeds, there wasn't a lot of, like, broad public awareness until the mid to late 2000 and tens when we had a few different things happen. So first, I think there was just a growing shift that has been written about a lot about just sort of a. People were starting to get tired of that Instagram Y look because, you know, so many, you know, an aesthetic had sort of, like, congealed around what. What influencers looked like, especially on Instagram, you know, really carefully curated, really posed a lot of times almost looking like a. Like a catalog, you know, from decades prior. And this still very much happens in the industry today. But at the time, it was almost happening without much public critique or, you know, not widespread, I guess, public criticism. And then some things started to happen. So the FTC started to get involved in the industry, and they sent out. They famously sent out like, warning letters to Kim Kardashian for, you know, not disclosing, not disclosing her partnership with a brand. And that was sort of like a public moment that, that public reprimand sort of started to bring it to people's attention that, oh, there's something more going on behind the scenes here. There were some other moments like a. That Asina o', Neill, who was like a huge influencer based in Australia, she had this sort of public break with influencing where she posted these YouTube videos saying this is all fake, this is all a lie, I'm miserable, things like that. And then we had Fyre Festival. That was probably one of the biggest sort of public, public scandals related to the influencer industry. When we had, you know, this, these people who ended up being, you know, sort of charlatans, if you will, who had planned, who had planned this, you know, is going to be like the best music festival in the entire world. And it's on this private island and it's all very, you know, aspirational and elite. And they get all these influencers, really like high level influencers, you know, like Kendall Jenner and, and the Bella Hadid and you know, all these sort of like super, super influencers who are also like models and did, you know, did other things. They got these sort of super influencers to promote this event. They get all, they sell all these tickets, get these people to this private island and there's, you know, there's basically no festival. There's none of the luxury accommodations that were promised. There's, you know, it was just like this total public meltdown that was covered like across this sort of broad, you know, media and that really brought to public attention that like there is, there is a lot more to this, you know, sort of perfect looking content that is, that we see on Instagram. And there is a whole sort of, whole, whole lot of other people involved, a whole machine going on behind this content and that sort of, those sort of, that series of events which they all happen and there, there was more to that I get into in the book. More, more events that. But there was sort of like, just like in quick succession in, you know, about 2015-2017 or 18, a series of events that really broke open into, you know, public perception that the, that there is a lot going on behind the scenes to this content that we see on our feeds.
- [28:49]
A
And so you have. And the Fry Festival kind of is coming is at a point where you're starting to see the maturation of the industry and you're starting to see how, because we talk about, you know, how we talk about dinosaurs out there in the economy and the reality is that these dinosaurs are not going to see this gigantic meteor coming and shrug their shoulders and shuffle off to extinction. They're going to fight to survive. And it's one of things, the, the interesting parts of your story is how they do adapt to the existence of the influencer industry. So rather than being replaced by it, they harness it in ways that serve their interests.
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B
Right. So in response to all of these issues, all the different participants in the industry sort of adjust what they're doing to survive. And so we see a lot of, you know, advertisers sort of taking public stands and saying, we're not going to work with any influencer that buys followers. We only want, you know, people with authentic, you know, there's that word again, authentic, following authentic audiences, you know, and we're, we're going to institute all these new processes at the brand side to really ensure the health of their audiences and, you know, ensure that we're only working with, you know, the most authentic and legitimate people. And marketers are introducing like, ever more sophisticated tools. And people, you know, some are saying, oh, we're going to start using, you know, artificial intelligence. We're going to start using all these new, ever more sophisticated technologies to ensure, again, like, they often use the word like health or authenticity of our, of our brand deals and influencers. Interesting. Kind of take another approach, which is, okay, I'm going to stop pretending that my life is perfect and I'm going to stop, you know, doing all this super posed, super posed content and I am going to start revealing a little bit more about like the behind the scenes of my work. And we, you know, and then we start to see, you know, influencers start, you know, sharing more, you know, behind the scenes, sharing their messy houses, sharing their. And again, this is all, it's still constructed I want. And that is what, that is what you know, the book gets into in depth is how this is all still sort of happening within the, you know, industrially set boundaries of acceptable forms of authenticity. And who can, who can pull that off and what does that actually look like, but that we, you know, from a user point of view, you start seeing, you know, people sort of sharing more. And this dovetailed nicely with like the launch of Instagram Stories, for example. So again, we have these other factors, technological factors, cultural factors. There's always more going on behind the scenes that shapes the content that we see on our feeds. But this moment, you know, was sort of a perfect match for the launch of Instagram Stories. So people, you know, started just getting on Instagram and talking while they, you know, walk, took a walk or, you know, made breakfast or whatever and just got on and started talking directly to their audience. And that helped bolster their authenticity and sort of, you know, cultivate the sense that, okay, Yeah, I do work with brands. I do, you know, have a personality online that I, that I'm, you know, selling it. But. But I'm still a person and I'm still, you know, doing the best I can and I still want to do right by you, my audience. And so we see, you know, that really start to. That type of content really start to, you know, blossom in the late 2020, late 2000 and tens.
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A
Another dynamic that you see emerging during that period is the emergence of social consciousness. And that was something that I found to be especially relevant given all the criticism you see in the public discourse today about Wokeism. And it struck me as I was reading that about how you can. There's very much of a thread that you can take from that discussion today and tie it to how as part of that image building, you see that desire for people to say, I have this consciousness and this conscience and that I want to. And these are the values by which I stand and how companies themselves were having to make that adjustment as well in order to present themselves as being part of this trend and connected and aware.
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B
Yeah, and so this was already. Yeah, there was a thread kind of growing in the late 2010s as well, like this sort of turn toward, you know, quote unquote, socially conscious consumption. And so we see, you know, the rise of a lot of brands, like I think I mentioned, like Warby Parker in the book, like brands who are saying, oh, we are, you know, selling products, but we're also trying to do good in the world. And, and, yeah, and so, and things like that. And so there's sort of this turn toward people starting to try, you know, start conversations, I guess, about being slightly more socially conscious in a way. And then, you know, like I said, we already had this shift and helped along by technological changes, people, influencers getting on stories, you know, talking more off the cuff, this kind of thing. And then which really sort of set the stage, I guess, if you will, for things to really change in, you know, 2020 and thereafter with, you know, in the book, I look to like the sort of major earth shaking news events of that year with obviously the pandemic starting, the murder of George Floyd and the ensuing protests, and then the presidential election in the United States that year. It was a very heightened and emotional time in our society. And influencers were kind of, they, they were kind of in this place where they had been trying to sort of cultivate their authenticity in a different way. And then there was these things going on in the world that were all like, just too big to ignore. And so they. We see that, like a sort of final shift, if you will, of influencers starting to finally address, you know, topics of inequality, politics, you know, all of these more socially conscious subjects, which had been extremely. Which they had, you know, they had kept themselves very distant from up to then and there. Up until the late 2000 and tens, there was pretty much an expectation that influencers be apolitical. You're supposed to just create beautiful content. Don't talk about anything that can invite controversy. And this came from different corners of the industry as well. Influencers, you know, will say that, you know, brands didn't want them to talk about anything that could invite controversy because they need to remain, you know, they call it brand safe. You know, they. They need to keep their feeds. Something that brands want to work with. And so they are sort of deincentivized toward speech, speaking their mind on, so, you know, social issues that they might care about. And they also were beholden, you know, to their audiences and experienced a, you know, a fear of blowback if, you know, they. They said something that, you know, said something controversial. And so influencers were kind of in this, you know, they had to tow a very delicate line, I guess, between, you know, showing themselves as, you know, authentic but not going too far, you know, whatever. Whatever that might mean at the time. And so they had been, you know, pretty, you know, pretty apolitical. And then. Yeah, and then things started to change and they. We see a lot more influencers speaking out. We saw a lot more audiences, too, sort of demanding of influencers. Like, why are you silent? Like, what do you. What. What are you gonna do about this? You know, And. And so, you know, the industry had to sort of navigate this. This shift toward, you know, people generally wanting to talk about and address social. Social and political issues and also, you know, do something about it. Tell me what your brand is doing to. To, you know, address these issues.
- [39:18]
A
You know, we're describing an industry that is now 15 years old, roughly, and it's one at which we're starting to see some of the effects of it upon the people. You get into the cost of the influencer industry. In your final chapter, I was wondering if you could perhaps elaborate upon what we've seen in terms of the price some people have paid for this and how it is that influencers are responding to this growing awareness of what being an influencer can entail in terms of negative costs.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah, so I want to say that while the industry. While the industry has sort of has, you know, developed in these particular ways. And now we're in this moment, as I was describing, of like, you know, people sharing more than ever, being, you know, more integrated into, you know, I get, you know, I guess they're just. They are showing themselves as being, you know, integrated into. In society in a way that they. That they weren't before. They are still dealing with, you know, the constraints on. On their work. And there are still something that I get into in the. In the final chapter is. Is how it has become clear that despite all of the changes and despite all the moves toward more alleged, you know, authenticity and things like that, there the. The industry is still, you know, it is not free from, like, the. The ills that plague our society more generally. And, you know, whether that be racial or inequalities or, you know, gender inequalities and, you know, all, you know, all sorts. All sorts of issues. It's not free from these problems, and in some cases it can perpetuate them. And so there are a variety of sort of costs, I guess, of the industry. And one, of course, which I think you were nodding to in your question is the cost for the people who are working in it, which is the taxing nature of being an influencer, which is. It's true. While, you know, it's hard to, you know, to capture, it's hard to speak broad strokes about every influencer because obviously they are. They. There's a lot of variation in what people specialize in and their, you know, how they. How they earn their influence and, you know, what they, you know, their ethical, you know, compasses. I guess there's a lot of variation, but in general, it is a difficult thing to be an influencer because you are sort of expected to share your whole self. And you're continually putting yourself up for backlash, whether it's from your audience or from brands or, you know, just like, weird things. Weird things happening. Like, you know, I had a lot of interviewees tell me about some, like, really frightening stories of, you know, being confronted in person about something, you know, it usually something kind of low stakes. Like you. You said that you were open with us, but, like, I, you know, it. You just. You, like, you just got married, so you hid your relationship from us. Like, that was one story that someone told me. And people were, like, angry at her for not, you know, not being open with. About the fact that she was in a relationship. And then she shared she got married and like, dealt with, like, some really sort of frightening attacks in the wake of that. And Another, Another interviewee shared how, like, she was contacted by a follower, you know, who lived like thousands of miles away, who said that she saw her family photos, like the influencers family photos. Someone had put them, like, in a house that was for sale. And like, things, like, just a lot of strange, you know, things can happen when you put yourself out there on, like that. And especially under this guise of like, I'm being, I'm being authentic. There's a lot of vulnerability that comes with that. And, and also something that we haven't gotten into yet, but I get into a lot in the book is the real imbalance of power between major social media companies. And influencers and brands. And so both influencers and brands are kind of operating under these circumstances where they feel that everything can be taken away from them overnight. If Meta decides they're going to change the algorithm or their terms of service or whatever, they could wake up tomorrow and their audience could be gone or something could change and this is all gonna go away. So there is still very much a sense of precarity in the industry that has been constant since its inception. And yeah, and so, so, yeah, so there are a lot of, A lot of difficulties and inequalities within the industry itself. Then of course, we go, you know, take the longer view of the role of the influencer industry in, you know, society, and we see even, you know, even more impact. And so it's, it's, it's hard to get into on a podcast, but, you know, they spend a couple chapters on this. But yeah, something that is really on at the time, top of my mind now is, is how this sort of the, the current sort of forms of authenticity, which is, you know, just go on there, be unscripted, you know, lots of video, whether it's TikTok or, or Instagram reels or what have you, just get on there and talk and, you know, just there's this idea, it's like, oh, I'm just sharing myself. It's. I'm just being, just being real. I'm just sharing my thoughts about xyz. But that makes it so easy for unsavory actors, if you will, to insert themselves in here. And so in the book, I get into how political groups have started to leverage influencers and also leverage sort of the norms of influencing. So there's also sort of this bleed of influencer practices to all of us, and we're all sort of being incentivized and encouraged in various ways to behave more like influencers. And that invites even more possibilities for for misinformation to spread and things like that. That is something that is top of mind for me right now.
- [47:54]
A
Well we appreciate the time you've taken to spend with us but before we go could you let us know what you're working on now?
- [48:01]
B
Sure. So I'm really focused on seeing this book through and it's something like I said I've been working on really the better part of a decade and so I'm really focused on seeing it through but I think you know what I just said about this sort of current version of everyone's everyone's an influencer and how can different groups leverage that for their own ends is what I'm doing you know turning my attention to for the next project.
- [48:41]
A
Well it sounds like an excellent follow up but I look forward to seeing when it comes out.
- [48:45]
B
Thank you so much.
- [48:47]
A
Well thank you very much for your time Emily. I hope you have a wonderful day.
- [48:49]
B
Thank you. You.