Emily Hunt Cavell (4:38)

Thank you for having me, Chris.

Chris Holmes (4:40)

It's so nice to get to talk to you about a novel that I really just loved and was really consumed by. The fairy tale genre, while very much a part of the history of a contemporary literary fiction, is still somewhat of a rarity. Why did you decide that this story needed to be told in that very particular form and with a huge number of fairy tale intertexts operating inside Dwelling?

Emily Hunt Cavell (5:06)

I think that's a, that's a great question. I mean I, I think first of all, at the time of writing dwelling, it was 2021, early 2021. And so I think I had been spending a lot of time, you know, alone or with my husband or, or amongst, you know, a very, very limited group of people and reading and living in my head and actually looking to art and interiority and, and, and books and texts to, to make the world feel expansive. And I think that fairy tales and Folk tales are some of the best at doing that. In terms of literature, the world feels guided by mysterious forces, both sinister and benevolent. Right. But in, in fairy tales. And I think that that is kind of how I was feeling at the time. And so I think it was part of just the kind of iconography that was living in my brain at the time was, was very much informed by folk fairy tales. But once I arrived at this premise of this woman who is, you know, cast out of New York during this massive eviction housing crisis and moves into a shoe, I knew that it was going to be a quest and, and a folktale quest. And so it just kind of, I think it was just this merging of where my interests as a writer were heading with this premise that I knew, I think required a world or a setting that was expansive and generous and really, really open to imagination.

Chris Holmes (6:53)

Would you describe for us a little bit what the world of Gullock, Texas looks like with its magic key makers and precious seeds?

Emily Hunt Cavell (7:02)

Yes, absolutely. So the world, so Gullah, Texas, in theory, you know, it's quite a fit little town, but it is in theory placed in the, in Northwest Texas, which, you know, if you're familiar with the area is, is often thought of as quite flat, you know, as plains, these never ending plains, arid. And so Gullock, I think from the first blessed, if one were to enter the town has some of that. And it's, you know, it's a small town. It probably looks like many small towns that have, that are slowly becoming bigger in, in different kind of more rural or suburban areas of the country. But I was interested in the idea that once you, you know, walk into a key shop or walk into a real estate agent's house, things start contorting. And I was so interested in the idea of the architecture of the interior rather than the exterior. And I know that obviously Evie styles exterior from an exterior perspective. Very, very unique. Right?

Chris Holmes (8:06)

Yeah.

Emily Hunt Cavell (8:06)

But was really, really interested in walking into places that from the outside don't seem special. And yet when you walk in, you're almost in a fun house mirror of the world bending and being something stranger than you thought it was.

Chris Holmes (8:25)

So, yes, this is reminding me a little bit of the house of Leaves with its side. I don't know if you're familiar with that book.

Emily Hunt Cavell (8:32)

I'm not. But tell me.

Chris Holmes (8:34)

Oh, well, it's just this. It's this amazing architectural novel in which this man determines that the house that he lives in is by many, many extrapolations, larger than its exterior would deem possible. And it becomes a, it, it, its genre turns into horror. Nothing, you know, there are no monsters or nothing scary, but just the, the existential terror of an internal architecture just being vast and unknowable. Pretty amazing.

Emily Hunt Cavell (9:07)

Who's the author?

Chris Holmes (9:08)

Oh, God, I'm going to forget his name. He has a brand new book out after years and years and years because that is a cult classic on, on the level of the secret history. People like, carry it around and are intensely in love with it. But I'll, I will link to it in the, on the website with this.

Emily Hunt Cavell (9:25)

Episode, so I can't wait to read it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I mean, that's a really, really great parallel. I think I was also at the time thinking a lot of the barren and the trees. Just that fine, it's. Hello, Calvino.

Chris Holmes (9:42)

Okay. I don't think I've ever read that.

Emily Hunt Cavell (9:44)

Oh, gosh, you're going to love it if you like.

Chris Holmes (9:46)

Okay, I love Calvino.

Emily Hunt Cavell (9:48)

So, yeah, I mean, it's about this baron who. There's, you know, this aristocratic young man in Italy who all of a sudden one day decides to go live in the trees and never touch his feet to the earth ever again. And he, you know, develops a network, a small society in the canopy of trees in this, you know, very fertile green area of Italy. And I don't know, there's something, there's something very folkloric about that, obviously, but also there's something this idea of, of different interior spaces and different lives and homes being hidden in plain sight to me, that I was finding so fascinating at the time.

Chris Holmes (10:26)

Mm. For me. I mean, and you've talked about this a little bit in your answer, but what I love about fairy tales is this. They're equally defined by whimsy as well as cruelty. And, and it seemed that you very much wanted to exploit that melange in, in this novel. It was that. Were you thinking about that mixture?

Emily Hunt Cavell (10:48)

Yes, absolutely. And I don't even know if I was. And I think that's whimsy. And cruelty is so true of fairy tales. I think, I think I was quite interested in Evie retreating from a world that was spiritually quite violent, you know, via exploitation, via physical violence, you know, via, via, you know, resource mongering, you know, and, and, and retreating into a different world that was defined by, by kindness but also gentleness, you know, and I think that gentleness is something that is so rare to find right now. I think that even, even the positive elements of our society are so loud and aggressive, you know, and So I think the idea of focusing a book on, on gentleness and on the, the, the, the. The expansiveness that that can generate was quite interesting to me. And so again, I think a lot of these things just so naturally fell into a folk fairy tale form that it wasn't even. Almost as if I was looking to folk fairy tales to inform how the book was going to go. But it was so obvious to me that that was the form it needed to take.

Chris Holmes (12:05)

I mean, I'm. I'm now thinking of having gone on vacation to Norway this summer and leaving the Oslo airport and returning to jfk. And if you, if you need an example of how we, we don't operate in a, In a world of gentleness, then you just need to do that once.

Emily Hunt Cavell (12:24)

Yes. Oh my gosh. I had a very similar experience traveling to Japan and I think flying back through maybe LAX or something, and it was similar. As soon as we touched down, I felt like the world was just contracting with aggression, you know?

Chris Holmes (12:40)

Yeah, yeah. I lived in Japan for over a, A year, and when, when I came home, I found that I. It took so long to adjust to the decibel level of everything.

Emily Hunt Cavell (12:51)

Yes, I know, I know. Yes. So I, I think, I think maybe there's something about the setting of Gullock to me where there's a quietness to it. You know, it's not, it's not a city. Galic is not a city that is announcing its wonders to the world. In fact, it's, it's doing quite the opposite. It's trying to keep most of its attractive qualities secret. And that's just, you know, so kind of. That's so the opposite. That's so antithetical to the way society is operating right now.

Chris Holmes (13:20)

Yeah, yeah. Though that's so true. So you have a. Tons of fantastic intertexts in, in the, the novel, like too many for me to name. And I'm sure I missed half of them, but, you know, Goldilocks, Rapunzel, Old Mother Hubbard, you know, on and on and on. And I was fascinated by the balance that you struck between, you know, having them resonate, but also you're really interested in shaping them to your own interests and devices. So can you talk about how those fairy tales come into the text and how you, you really take charge of them?

Emily Hunt Cavell (13:55)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I think part of it is a. Is a. Is my own perspective. I feel like I'm walking through the world and seeing absurd and, and funny and strange and eccentric things all the time, you know, and So I think part of it was. It was feeling like some of these, you know, archetypes and. And images are not as unique to fairy tales as we might think. You know, I mean, even the old woman who lived in the shoe. Right. Obviously the image of an old woman living in a shoe is unique, but the idea of an old woman, you know, having to live in a really weird house because she's, you know, economically addled is not, you know.

Chris Holmes (14:38)

Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way, but. Oh, yeah, you're so right.

Emily Hunt Cavell (14:43)

Yeah. So I. I think. I think that to me, and, you know, even the idea that, you know, obviously there's this idea that, you know, once Edie starts wearing the right kind of shoes, she can. She can do. She can access courageous and almost limitless parts of herself. Right. And, you know, I think there's something, you know, obviously there's the seven league boots reference, but there's also some. Some princess and the pea quality.

Chris Holmes (15:09)

Um, have you.

Emily Hunt Cavell (15:10)

And. And I. I think the idea that people are limited, not because. Because they are physically limited by things that are holding them back and making them uncomfortable and making them restricted, that is not new either, you know, so I think. I think a lot of these. These fairy tale themes and images are. Are deeply relevant and. And all one really needs to do is have them in mind as they go through their day and. And they'll see them.

Chris Holmes (15:38)

And you don't. You have no interest in princes in shining armor. In fact, men are. Are often sort of giant, withering failures. The. The key maker, Bertie being a. A key. A key exception, even. He stays back from the adventure. He helps mention the key, but he's. He knows that the adventure is for. Even to have. I mean, I thought that an important part of what you were doing in your shaping as well.

Emily Hunt Cavell (16:07)

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, and I. I think it's interesting. I think it's a. It's a rather easy subversion of fairy tales to be like, the men are dumb and the women are great, you know, and that's not what I wanted to do, you know?

Chris Holmes (16:21)

No, no. And. And the obed is, like, partially disappointing.

Emily Hunt Cavell (16:26)

I know, I know. As a man, Obed is all of us, I think.

Chris Holmes (16:30)

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Emily Hunt Cavell (16:31)

But no, I. But you are, I think, pointing out something interesting, whereas I. I think the. The story is one of. It's a personal journey of. Of empowerment for Evie, but that does not mean that she doesn't take help from people, you know, and animals and. And. And animals. Exactly. You Know, like, men, women, and animals are all. Are all a part of her journey, but it isn't. It is still her journey. And I think, again, this just goes back to the idea of. Of reciprocity and generosity. Right. Like, she. She is a good friend, a good cousin, a good sister, a good, you know, lover. And because of that, people are willing to help her. Right. And so I think there's something about reciprocity and kindness that is at the core of Evie's journey.

Chris Holmes (17:21)

Yeah.

Emily Hunt Cavell (17:22)

But I did. I did like the idea that Evie is both going to be the lost heroine, the damsel in distress, the hero, the rescuer. You know, she. She's all. She plays, all of the roles. And to me, that was quite fun to write from a, you know, character development perspective.

Chris Holmes (17:39)

Oh, I bet. Is the novel in conversation at all with Stephen Sondheim's into the Woods.

Emily Hunt Cavell (17:46)

That is so fun that you asked. You know, it's funny, I had never. I was not even familiar with. I mean, I knew Sondheim, but I had never seen the play until I had finished the book. And then I saw the play. I saw some of my students put on into the woods, and I was like, man, there's some really resonant themes. There's a lot, you know, So I love that you. That you got that. That was. I mean. But I do think it shows that there is something in the field that people sleep with these fairy tales and they see this kind of dry, you know, dark humor, that approach to them.

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Chris Holmes (19:16)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it was in the air, even if it wasn't your direct, direct intertext yeah, so, so going with shoes as your central framing metaphor, fashioning them both as an ancient and celebrated art form and a lightly magical means of adventuring and comfort, has some risks involved. It could have been the case that this focus on shoes would be read as an allegory giving meaning to the gendered way in which women are seen by pop culture as obsessive about their shoes. But instead, the magic is in the shoes ability to be both ornamented and practical. So why shoes? And, and were you aware of the sort of, the complications of making them your leitmotif?

Emily Hunt Cavell (20:04)

Yes, I, I, I, I mean, the, the complications, I think, weren't top of mind. However, you know, there's a line, I believe, where Noah, you know, Edie's shoemaking guru, has something about high heels, and he says, you can't run in those or you can't run.

Chris Holmes (20:21)

Yeah.

Emily Hunt Cavell (20:22)

And that is something that I think I, that's a line that's been living in my head since I was maybe a teenager. The idea that, like to wear, to wear some of these shoes, especially the shoes that I think women are, you know, encouraged to wear. There's an inherent, I mean, it's, it's really hard to get anything done in them.

Chris Holmes (20:45)

It's a, it's a form of violence. And we see that in Edita or Edita at, at the end of the novel. And her, her high heels.

Emily Hunt Cavell (20:53)

Yes, exactly. Right. And then, you know, she's there. Edie looks at Adidas shoes and, and there's blood in them. Right. Which is a kind of, which is a heart, which is kind of a flashback or a reference to the original Grimm Cinderella, where there's blood in a pair of shoes. But to your point, I think I was interested in the complications then in them rather than, I think, like, afraid of any of it being mis. Interpreted. But I think more than anything, you know, I think inherent in almost all fairy tales is the idea of a journey. You know, someone setting out through an unknown land to do something. And, and, you know, this is, this could be men, women, children, like in Hansel and Gretel. And to me, I, I think the journey is so defined by how well equipped you are and, and how physically capable you are of making it. And to me, the idea of Evie fashioning and getting into the art form of something that prepares people for journeys choose was so interesting to me. Almost like she's, she's taking part in this, like, foundational quest narrative and she, in theory, is enabling others, other people's quests in her art form.

Chris Holmes (22:08)

If there's villainy in this novel, it is institutional. The failures of institutions to produce affordable housing, and most ominously, the institution that holds Evie's sister Elena like a prisoner. You know, Elena has indeed committed a violent crime, but the treatment of her mental illness is violent and really unforgivable on a societal level. And in the case of dwelling, institutions are represented by their architecture. And Evie describes the mental institution like a prison. Architects will always tell you that spaces matter and that they create feeling, they're a catalyst for community, and that they express very front facing the values of a society. Can you talk about Elena's institutionalization and also about the ways in which you wanted architecture to represent the values of society?

Emily Hunt Cavell (23:04)

Yes, absolutely. I think specifically Elena's institution, which of which eventually Evie must travel to and break into. Architecturally, I wanted it to almost inhabit this, the iconography of the looming castle, you know, and it does in many ways, but it's also acting. It also looks like a prison. And you know, in many fairy tales, those two things can be one and the same. Right. And so I think from an architectural perspective, there's closed windows, there's, there's gates, there's confusion about how to navigate the, the buildings themselves. And that's true for a few of the apartments that, that we learn Edie has lived in as well. And so there's this lack of accessibility and it's like a spiritual accessibility. You know, there's something about architecturally these places that's show you are not welcome here and it will be very difficult for you to inhabit this space. And, and I think what was interesting to me specifically about the institution that Atlanta is in is that it. It is, it's incredibly foreboding. It's, you know, it's, it's cast in shadow because of the way they've kind of built the, the towers and turrets around the surrounding courtyard. So it's very, it's shadowed, there's very little light, but actually breaking into it is not that hard, which to me, you know, and they require, you know, it's not like super easy, but it worked. You know, it requires some cleverness.

Chris Holmes (24:39)

But so to me, that it wasn't like Fort Knox.

Emily Hunt Cavell (24:44)

Yes. And so to me, that was quite interesting. It was like, oh, well, you know, part of the power of these institutions is the power we give them and you know, and they also wield incredible, you know, actual power. But part of a, of Edie's journey is, is reimagining society. Not just society, but the way she reacts to society and where and. And the way she. What she does and doesn't value and the spaces that she does and doesn't feel she belongs in. And so the idea that. That the institution is something that. That is so unwelcoming looks so forbadden foreboding. And yet Evie is able to, by reimagining it and her access to it, get into, almost takes the power away from it spiritually. And that was. That was. I think, even without. Maybe I don't think I consciously was doing that, but I didn't want it to be so hard for her to get in. You know, I wanted it to be something that required creativity and reassessment rather than, you know, actual, you know, fashioning of some kind of ram, you know, or whatever.

Chris Holmes (25:53)

Although I would have enjoyed the fashioning.

Emily Hunt Cavell (25:55)

Of a rat would have been good. Yeah, that's. That maybe the, you know, too late, but that would have been fun.

Chris Holmes (26:01)

Next. Next one.

Emily Hunt Cavell (26:02)

Yeah.

Chris Holmes (26:02)

At one point in the novel, when considering what happened to her sister in the asylum, quote, they had drugged her, bust her away in the night, fed her crackers and gruel, she realizes that she doesn't have the language with which to properly describe that kind of horror. And perhaps that's what this novel is in part, attempting to do, to give a shape to language that shakes us awake to the inequities and horrors happening all around us. Do you find that to be true?

Emily Hunt Cavell (26:33)

I mean, I think that's a really beautiful interpretation. I. I think. I think certainly, I think the inequities and horrors that we are seeing and experiencing can be, I think, understood when we look to ancient texts sometimes. And I. And I think that by framing some of these seemingly quite. Quite contemporary problems of. Of Elena and Evie in the folklore and fairy tale world, I think it. It shows that these are. These are problems that have existed for a very long time. Right. I mean, so many. So many fairy tales, original fairy tales, are based on housing scarcity. You know, the stepmother is there and she's worried that the stepdaughter is going to, you know, take food from her mouth. I mean, Hansel and Gretel are cast out because I think there's a famine. You know, there. There's this.

Chris Holmes (27:32)

I didn't know that.

Emily Hunt Cavell (27:33)

Yeah. So there's this scarcity of resources that is, I think, at the heart of so many folk tales, fairy tales, fables. And I think sometimes we. We forget that. You know, we forget that there. That there's. That there's, I think, recognition and A maybe, maybe a sense of, I don't know, redemption and solace when we look to stories to, to start interpreting our world.

Chris Holmes (28:00)

Well, now I feel like my question is, is even better because, because of the way you just framed it there in terms of the, the inciting events to these fairy tales, which I didn't think about at all. But I think that's, that's such an interesting way to return to them and think about them and to think anew about, about your book. I mean we've been talking about kindness and generosity and reciprocity, to use a number of the words that you, you feel are central here. And I felt like that's one of the, the really original things, at least for our moment about dwelling is that you've written something where you've, you've kind of overridden the. One of the kind of primary driving things about story which is like the location of, of people who are wrong or bad or villainous and you've made even them deserving, deserving of kindness. I mean, a wonderful example is, you know, Evie seeing a young girl thieving apples from her apple tree in her new home and seeing that as an opportunity for connection, empathy, generosity, kindness, and that seems to layer her whole world with a luxurious frosting of generosity. And, and this feels very different to me. Are, are you aware of a kind of genre of the contemporary novel that really leans in this way on generosity or did you feel like you were trying something new?

Emily Hunt Cavell (29:28)

I think I definitely felt like I was trying something new and you know, not. I mean I haven't, you know, I haven't read every book in the world, but I do think that. No, I know one day.

Chris Holmes (29:43)

Keep at it.

Emily Hunt Cavell (29:44)

I do think at, at. I was, I think I was aware of this trend in contemporary fiction to lean into solipsism and misanthropy and, and, and it's quite interesting because, you know, as a person, I think, you know, in conversation as I inhabit my, my day to day life, I, I am quite a misanthrope. I mean I, I'm not, you know, I'm not like a super, I don't know, a nice person. Not that I'm mean, but I, I'm not, I'm not like going through the world with rose colored glasses or anything, but I do think that I was, I was reading these so many books that felt quite maudlin and, and, and, and there was a, there was a monotony to them in, in a way. And so I think I was really interested in, in You. In harnessing story and conflict and creativity and anxiety. You know, like, this is a book that I think is born out of anxiety and a collective anxiety that many people have about.

Chris Holmes (30:47)

Yeah, absolutely.

Emily Hunt Cavell (30:49)

And harnessing that towards. Not to sound really corny, but, like, hope. And to me, there was something interestingly subversive about that. The idea that, like, in a. In a contemporary fiction landscape or so so much is about, I don't know, the toxicity some Others there felt like there was something subversive in. In not. In not doing that. And I think so. Yeah. And so. And I think that's always. There's always something, I think, in me that is. That really bucks against trends in. In contemporary fiction. And I think that. I think this was an ex. It was a really fun exercise born out of that.

Chris Holmes (31:40)

In some ways, I. I found myself being struck by the fact that it's sort of impossible to read Dwelling now without being changed by the victory of Zoran Mamdani in New York City, whose platform really rested on the idea of housing affordability. And I wonder if you read your novel differently now that Mamdani will be the mayor of New York.

Emily Hunt Cavell (32:04)

I don't think I necessarily read the novel differently, though I think I do see that this novel is only one version. Evie decides to defy a society that doesn't want her and exploits her and relegates her to a very, very small corner of itself by leaving it. You know, by. By actively leaving, which I think is fair. But I think there's something so beautiful and hopeful about the fact that Mamdani has. Has won the mayoral race, because it shows that there's also a version where people stay and fight, you know, and that is not what. That is not what Edie does. You know, she fights. She fights it personally. And it's a very. Again, Edie's is a very personal journey. So I think it shows me that there's many different hopeful ways to defy this, like, incredibly exploitative, capitalist hoarding of resources. And so I think. I think that Dwelling is. Covers one version, but I think that there's a really, really beautiful version that we may well see.

Chris Holmes (33:11)

You know, that's really nicely said, Emily. Before I let you go, I'm wondering if you would have a couple of recommendations that you. Of things you've been reading and loving recently that you might want to share to my listeners.

Emily Hunt Cavell (33:24)

Yeah, so actually, I was just kind of looking around, and the bookshelf that I have right near me as we're talking has three books that I just really love all next to each other. And I kind of thought it'd be fun to just recommend those.

Chris Holmes (33:38)

That's great. I love that.

Emily Hunt Cavell (33:40)

So. And they're. Two are very undwelling and one is very. So wise Blood Flannery o'. Connor.

Chris Holmes (33:50)

Okay.

Emily Hunt Cavell (33:50)

You know, very. Not dwelling, but misanthropic, but. But also a demented journey, for sure.

Chris Holmes (33:59)

Yes, yeah, yeah, true. With emphasis on the dementia.

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:04)

Yes, with emphasis on that. Let's see. I. Then I bought Binstead's Safari by Rachel Ingalls. Are you familiar with that one?

Chris Holmes (34:12)

No. Rachel Ingalls wrote that. What's her most famous.

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:16)

Mrs. Caliban.

Chris Holmes (34:17)

Yeah, Mrs. Caliban. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:19)

Yes. Which I adored. And so I. I read this other book by her and actually this is. I actually was kind of inspired by this while writing Dwelling. It's about a woman.

Chris Holmes (34:29)

What's the name of it again?

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:30)

Binstead Safari.

Chris Holmes (34:32)

Okay.

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:32)

And there are. There are. I don't know if there. I forget if there's talking animals, but there's definitely a man lion hybrid. So, you know, if that sounds off your. Great.

Chris Holmes (34:42)

Yeah.

Emily Hunt Cavell (34:44)

And. And then there's a really great kind of more literary theory book by Marina Warner, who I just adore. And she writes quite a bit about folk and fairy tales and she wrote this quite slim novel about, I guess, like, the foundations of fairy tale narrative, which I did read in the revision process for Dwelling, and it's called Once Upon a Time. And she is so. She's so. She's so brilliant and elegant and she makes. She really, really does a good job of making fairy tale words and fairy tale analysis feel quite elevated and sophisticated and mysterious. And so I recommend that to anyone who's interested in those. In those archetypes in that way of forming narrative.

Chris Holmes (35:30)

Well, what a wonderfully eclectic range of recommendations. And I can't wait to recommend to my listeners Dwelling by Emily Hunt Cavell. It is. It bucks the trends of contemporary fiction in the form of a wonderful fairy tale folklore adventure story quest with a narrative voice that is so unique and, and so catching to the ear that you won't soon forget it. And it was. It was really. It's so lovely to get to talk to you about it, Emily.

Emily Hunt Cavell (36:00)

It was so fun. Thanks for asking such thoughtful questions.

Chris Holmes (36:05)

Thank you. Well, that's all for me for now. My thanks to Emily Hunt Cavell for coming on to talk about her brilliant debut novel, Dwelling. You can find links to purchased Dwelling and all of Emily's recommended books at the website burned by books.com there you'll find all of our previous episodes, links to buy a podcast, T shirt, and ways to get in contact. As you listen, take a moment to rate the show on itunes, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. Until next time, this has been burned by books. The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 copilot.