Eric King (2:49)

Hi. Thank you so much. It's a real honor to be here and I really appreciate it.

Michael Stout (2:52)

Now my first question. This is a book about your time and what you call America's most notorious dungeon. Maybe we could start by having you talk a bit about how you came to spend almost two years in that dungeon, the federal supermax prison or adx.

Eric King (3:06)

Yeah, so I was, I was thrown in prison in 2014 for those Ferguson solidarity acts. And I started off at a low security. People think that like throwing Molotovs will get you like placed in the highest dungeon, but it really doesn't. They don't care. But because of the way I did activist stuff within prison, writings about misdeeds, writing about how we were treated, writing about the guards, it gradually got me increasing custody level and eventually I was taken into a mob closet by a lieutenant and attacked by him. And when I fought back, I was given a second charge of assaulting a federal officer, causing serious bodily injury because of that self defense. And I ended up taking it to trial. I would not sign a plea deal because I knew I was right and I won at federal trial. And we talk about that in the book too, because less than 1% of federal cases end in a victory. But when that happened, the Bureau of Prisons was very offended. They did not appreciate that. They thought I'd got over on them. And the response to that was after years and years of going through this process of going through countless segregations and countless prisons of them saying we're going to bury you in ADX so that you can't talk or do any more activism.

Michael Stout (4:33)

Right, right, right. Now I think that one of the most important parts of the book is the way that you discuss ADX itself. So could you describe for our listeners the physical layout of ADX in the book? You describe it as a tomb or a living morgue, among other things. So what did it look like and what was the psychological effect of encountering that space for the first time after having been in these other places?

Eric King (4:56)

Yeah, in the federal prison system, kind of like in the free world, people mythologize ADX because it's known as like the, the worst. Every state Prisoner that can't be handled gets sent there. All the worst, quote, unquote, worst federal prisoners get sent there. And so it has this aura about it as almost unreal. And when you roll up to it, it looks like a red office building. It's just casual red brick. And it throws you off. Because the other prisons you see are massive. They've got big walls around them, and they have, like, the old, like, Shawshank Redemption feel to them. And you roll up to this one, it looks like you're gonna go pay your taxes. And it's surrounded by just a grip of razor wire and fences, just the normal stuff. And once you roll into it, it's still like. It just feels like you're going into the back of a warehouse. But when you step into the prison and when you get processed through, that's when it starts feeling like, oh, no. Because they walk. When they walk you into the actual prison proper like itself, there's no units that you can see. You're not hearing people yelling. You're not seeing people playing basketball or cards. It is a hallway. And the hallway, like, it angles down at a deep slope, like a hill. And as you're going down, you'll see just doors to your left. And those doors lead to the units. But the men are so isolated deep within this unit that you can never hear them. You never see the other people. And as you're walking down the prison, and the units are built into the ground so you're never ground level. Like, if I broke out of the prison and got to my cell, I'm 12ft underground in a concrete area. So it's disorienting to walk down this giant slope. And then you finally get to your unit, and you just have to pass through so many doors. Everything's electronic. There's no keys. And then your unit is tiny. It's just a hallway with eight cells. Eight. Eight men on your range that are all in these concrete boxes that you will not see and you will not talk to unless you go to extreme, extreme measures to talk to them. So it does feel like you're walking into, like, your mausoleum. And it's not. You didn't get to design it. It's not built for your comfort. And so that's the tomb aspect of it, is that you're by yourself in a concrete box underground. That's a tomb.

Michael Stout (7:33)

That's deep. That's deep in more ways than one.

Eric King (7:36)

I was gonna say pun.

Michael Stout (7:38)

Right. Well, it's interesting because what that makes me think about is prison as like a social space in a weird way. And one of the things that that ADX does in your description is it actually takes away some of that socialness, which is, which can be difficult to deal with. But it also, I, I don't know, can you talk a little bit more about that and also like kind of relatedly how ADX is so different from other, other levels of security.

Eric King (8:07)

So as you go up in custody level, the restrictions you face increase, as does the level of racial politics, as does the level of intense violence. So. But an overall grand scope of prison is that you have your comrades, you have your friends, and even if you're always suspicious of them, and it can always turn south, there are still the people you talk to every morning, you work out with, you gossip with, you read books with, watch TV with, just, just BS with and become a, a surrogate family. Um, even someone like myself who like, doesn't have the same amount of safety because of like my politics and views on race and homosexuality and all that stuff, even I'm able to like, make friends and feel a level of comfort. And at adx that's taken away. You're not playing basketball with anyone. You're not walking laps with people, you're not hearing about how their family's doing. You're not having sad days where you can just talk and cuss even things like arguments. In prison, like a good way release your frustration is to argue, fight butt heads, talk trash, which sounds like ridiculous, but it's no different than like Internet gossip, adx, that is, you're on your own. Figure it out. You, you're having a bad day, figure it out. You're having a sad day. So what, you want to kill yourself? Do it. And you might get an hour of recreation in a dog kennel every other day to where you might see two or three other men that you don't know. But in most units, you don't get your dog kennel with other people. For my year and a half, first year and a half there, I didn't, I didn't have outside wreck or inside wreck with other humans. So it, it destroys that aspect and it, it retrains you to not know how to be social. And people don't understand always that interacting with humans is a learned skill and you could unlearn that skill very quickly. And that's one of the troubling aspects about that prison that's so different.

Michael Stout (10:10)

Yeah, yeah. The element of isolation. Another thing that I wanted to ask about is one of the most powerful sets of Observations that you make in the book has to do with routine as a way of dealing with the reality of that existence in this six and a half foot by eight foot tomb that by yourself in. In isolation. So, for example, in chapter six, you say, if you don't provide meaning to your day, no one else will. And I think this actually has lessons for everyone, just not just folks that are. That are in that situation. So could you talk a little bit about the, the importance of routine and the routines that you developed to kind of not just in adx, but throughout the experience. But. But maybe, maybe start there? Sure.

Eric King (10:51)

I did seven and a half years of isolation. The 23 hours in a cell, one hour out if you're lucky. And so you get taught over time that no one cares if you're happy. Kind of like what I said in the last little bit. No one cares if you sit on your bed and deteriorate all day and your brain turns to mush. So you have to make a proactive decision. Do I want my life to have purpose today or do I want to at the prison, crush me? Because that's the alternative. There's not a middle ground. You are either letting them dominate you physically, spiritually, mentally, or you are claiming your victories. And for me, these victories were, y' all get to decide every aspect of my day except for what I do. So you don't get everything from me. You can't take everything. So I'm gonna clean my cell every day, twice a day, because that gives me dopamine. I'm accomplishing something. I'm going to do my laps, I'm going to make my bed, I'm going to do these workouts. And you set a clock by it. And just like in the free world, if you set a goal, like, I'm going to walk a thousand steps today on the way to work. And then you do it like your body's like, good job. It's the same inside, even if it's something menial. Like, I'm going to take this toothbrush and this toothpaste and I'm going to clean my stainless steel toilet, and it's going to be spotless. I should be able to eat off of this toilet. And that sounds vile, but I've had to drink water out of a toilet before because I haven't been provided water. So you want to know that you have a semblance of control over your life. And when you do that, like, I don't want to say it takes away the hurt, but it increases the Pride, it increases your ability to manage the hurt. And that's important to me. Like that's where the five, five star day system comes from. That's where all this stuff comes from.

Michael Stout (12:41)

Right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now can I ask you, do you think your politics helped you navigate that? Or what was it that led you to thinking through like coming to those conclusions? There's conversations with other folks that you were with or was like, what was it that helped you kind of come arrive at the importance of that, that routine?

Eric King (13:00)

It was, it's an amalgamation of like everything you consume, whether it's books, your elders, people you meet. But when you asked about the politics, hell yeah, I don't know if I'm allowed to cuss, but for me it was. I see the prison system as a legit enemy. I see that it removes people that society considers problematic and buries them as opposed to trying to heal them and then heal the community that they've harmed. It doesn't provide healing, it provides vengeance. And then we, we take in that vengeance and dish it out to others. And so my politics taught me that they are trying to break me. They are trying to mold me into something I don't want to be. They want me to be violent, they want me to be angry, they want me to be self destructive. And sometimes you fall into that trap, like sometimes you just get so hurt emotionally that you buy into it, you play into what they want. But once you can pull it back, I see what you're trying to do to me and I will not let you break me. I will not let you take control over my mind and my body. And that's. Once again, you don't get everything. And not everyone has that basis or that analogy of why they want to win. Some people just their ego is like, you're not gonna fuck with me. Some people, some people fall apart.

Michael Stout (14:20)

Yeah, right, right. Yeah. I think that's really powerful, the thought about the way that, you know, because in, in recent ways that people think about prisons, there's been a turn from rehabilitation towards simple warehousing. And as you say, it's not a space of healing and vengeance. And it feels like I'm not trying to, to make a case for rehabilitation in prison and all that kind of stuff, but the, what you say about vengeance and, and warehousing really strikes me as like, related to two things that are related. I wanted to also say you mentioned these five star days. There's one point during your stay at ADX where the power goes out and you see the stars for the first time in a long time. Can you talk about that moment? And then also maybe about this concept of five star days that are related to these routines that you develop. Yeah.

Eric King (15:09)

So part of my routine was verbalizing gratitude, intentional gratitude. And that was in the mornings. I would list everything I hope to accomplish that day and what I'm grateful for. Like, I have my feet, I can walk, I can, I can smell. I have a. I have my little stupid tv. I have a cup of coffee today. And then a five star day would be, I accomplished my goals, I cleaned, I ate good food. The guards didn't harass me or mess up myself. I didn't fall into self loathing or if I did, I pulled myself out of it. I talked to or got letters from my wife. She is a part of every. There's no five star day without her. And then either the Chiefs or Manchester United won a game that day. If all that happened, that's a five star day. And it would feel like, imagine the best day you've had on the free world. That's what it felt like. And I tried to ensure that there's no one star days because a one star day means they won. And at the end of the day, I'd have to go over all the things I accomplished and what I was grateful for. Now before I go to bed, like, I'm gonna wake up. I have people that love me. I have a slab to sleep on. Most some people in the world don't. And so when the lights went out that one day, it was a three star day. I remember it vividly. It was not like the best of days, but at that moment you got to see the world. And we never get to see the world. Outside my window is concrete boxes and then about 2 inches of searchlight. You have to block your window to keep out the searchlight so that you can sleep. When those lights went out, it was like the stars were little angels, like protecting us, saying, we've got you. Like, you will be with us again. You are made up of us. You are with us and you will be out here again soon. And I didn't count that as a five star day because I didn't want to put it into the scope of something I had control over. That felt more like a gift. It was like the universe or my goddesses or whatever you want it to be, saying, like, we see you and you're loved. So it was its own, like benchmark of joy and accomplishment. Just what if I hadn't been awake. What if I had been sleeping through that? I would have missed that gift. So it just felt like everything built up to give me this magnificent, like, just moment of clarity that life exists outside of this hell and you don't have to let it consume you. This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Great podcast pick, friend. No surprises there. After all, you're all about finding the tastiest flavors out there, just like White Claw Surge. And with big bold flavors to enjoy like blood orange, BlackBerry, cranberry and more, it's time to go all in on taste. Unleash the flavor. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors, 8% alcohol by volume. White cloth seltzer works Chicago, Illinois. Minute Maid Zero sugar tastes so amazing, you've just got to say great taste and zero sugar. And Minute Maid zero sugar sells itself. Great taste, zero sugar sell.

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Michael Stout (18:46)

Yeah, you know, that was a very powerful moment for me as I was reading it, because I have similar practices in my own daily life, you know, and so that. That really resonated with me. And I think that one of the things that you do so powerfully is humanize this experience. And that leads me to my next question, which is about, you know, one of the. One of the things that's. In addition to all of that, one of the things that's so valuable about the book is that it functions to me as a kind of ethnography of contemporary prisons from a person who has a very specific point of view. And in one chapter, you provide a detailed account of prisoner demographics. For example, at another point, you tell a series of stories about infamous people you met in adx, including Muslim prisoners incarcerated for acts of resistance against American empire. So I wanted to ask about why it was so important to you to include this broad range of material.

Eric King (19:36)

So, firstly, there's no books about leftists in prison from the last 20 years. They do not exist for us. And I know everyone listening to this might not fall into my same political scope, but they might still be interested in what's happening behind bars, especially in the federal prison system. So when I was writing this book, when I thought about my experiences, I realized or thought ahead of time that mine isn't the only experience that matters. Like writing this perspective, just from my perspective is like really self involved and presumptuous that like I can speak for a prison population that I am not a part of, and that includes the far right prisoners. I don't have the same experiences they have. I've never been in a white power gang. And so I can't just say my experiences are theirs because there's more stories to tell. And those stories will not get told unless someone from the inside speaks on them. And when I was like thinking about the jihadi prisoners, they have the worst reputation in the world. Like the American media and society as a whole has painted every single Muslim prisoner as the devil. Just hates us for our values, our ethics, our freedom. And what they leave out is that they also love their values and their freedom. And that was taken from them. When I, I wanted to attack the government because one child is murdered in Ferguson, Missouri. What if that entire city had gotten blown up and I had nothing to do with it? Was, we didn't do nothing. What if my, my family, my brothers, my cousins were all butchered by machines that we had no power or no ability to stop? How hurt would I be? How angry would I be? What would I be willing to do to uphold my family and my beliefs? And I might not agree with all of them or like what they did, but on a human level, I can see that they are still people that love. There are still people that have passions and desires. And there are people that were hurt, hurt people, hurt people. They didn't do 9, 11. They didn't, they didn't do this stuff. And the people that did it wasn't done in a vacuum. And that's where I have to always remember when I'm dealing with people that have done things that maybe are outside of my scope, is that they have experiences that I cannot relate to and understand and therefore I cannot judge them the same way. Or anyway, who am I, some white trash kid from Kansas City going to call this jihadi trash? Because the same people are calling me trash. So when you meet them, it's important to see them as human. And when you tell their stories, it's important to recognize that they might never have another human talk about them in a way that's empathetic. I don't know the next person that's going to write about Ramsey Yousef, that's going to say, this is someone who has grandkids. I got to see Richard Reed, the shoe bomber. And I don't know if anyone else is going to write about him and talk about his Birmingham accent or the fact that he has family that he will never see again because of his restrictions. And I've got grandparents, or I had rest in peace, all my grandparents, but if they were in prison, would I want them to feel this hurt and would I want them to be abandoned and talked down upon and disregarded? No. And so that's how I felt when it came to other prisoners, is that their stories are just as important, just as valuable, and their lives are just as valuable as mine. And so their voices need to be amplified, even if I have to do it from my own perspective of their experiences.

Michael Stout (23:19)

Yeah. And I think it's a really important insight that you mentioned that there's been no, no books about leftists in prisons for decades. So that's, that's a really, really important contribution that it makes. I'm going to circle back, I think, at the end to talk a little bit about the process of getting this thing out and what that. Um, but related to that, it's also distinctive because you serve time in this specific place where most people actually don't return. Most of them are in there for life. And I think that, that because you get out, you're able to tell their stories in a way that's also not possible, it seems like. And, and that leads me to my next question, which is you, you know, in chapter nine, you write about, and this is a quote from the book. People need to know that they are not forgotten, that they're alive in someone's heart. And you also have a story about a person that you were familiar with from tv. He's one of these inf people that was, that was in there, but that you didn't recognize because he was very old when you met him in adx. So can you talk a little bit about what it was like to encounter elderly people? You have a lot of really powerful observations about elderly incarcerated folks. So can you talk about those experiences and also maybe what it means to support, to do support work for these elderly people.

Eric King (24:31)

Mean, elderly prisoners in ADX destroyed me. It's one of the most heart wrenching things I can picture because I picture my grandfather and the pains that he had in his hips, his knees, his liver causing him problems. The daily medicine he needed, the physical therapy he needed none of These men are getting that to try to get a knee brace and adx, you might as well get a gold watch. It's not happening. And so it ripped my heart out knowing that these people who have experienced life and have experienced, as I said, joys and heartbreaks, are now reduced to a box, a concrete box. And that's not okay. To me, it's. Even if you think this elderly person committed the worst crime imaginable, what benefit does it do him or society for him to be by himself in a box? Why can't they be with friends? Why can't they have hours out of their cell even if they're in a prison that's isolated from others? Like, if you're going to have isolation prisons, fine. Why do the elderly have to be in this situation where they only get one hour out a day? They even have an elderly unit and adx. But you have to have a certain amount of, like, good, like, good days. You can't have disciplinary issues. You have to agree to all these wild circumstances. And it's still 23 hours locked down. And it's the most privileged you can get out of prison. And I don't think it's right that we erase people. I don't think it's right that someone like Larry Hoover, for example, he did 50 years in prison. Why on earth is this elderly man. He's out of ADX now. They moved him to a Chicago state prison. Why on earth does he need to be buried like this? The elderly person that I met or that I saw, his name was King Blood. He was a Latin King member in New York City or founder. And he had been accused of all this. All this nonsense, fine. Gang stuff. And he was. The judge sentenced him to life without communication. That's never been done before and it's never been done since. And so I'm watching this documentary on him, and he's this young, vibrant guy, and he sees himself as an activist. Like, my community is abandoned by the police, abandoned by society. I will uplift it. I will use what access and what tools we have to lift us up. And if that's drugs, fine. If that's violence, fine. But we're not going to be struggling anymore. And then I see this elderly man walking past the window on the way to medical, and somebody goes out, what's up, King Blood? And he goes back, all right. I was like, that's him. He had shriveled. He had gone 20 years without a phone call. Like, 20 years without contact visits. And the fact that he was still able to even yell like hello felt like a miracle to me. I don't know how anyone can find that internal strength to do that, but since they have it, I need to honor it. Like, the prison system does not get to define these humans for me. I don't have to accept their definition of what good and bad is. I can have my own view on these elderly people or anybody and say that they deserve love and compassion no matter what. And so seeing them, like, I wanted to just express to the world, this could be your grandparent. Treat them the way you'd want your grandparent treated. And no one's going to do that. Like, most people will not do that, but hopefully at least one more does.

Michael Stout (28:05)

Yeah, no, that seems crucial. Um, now related to that is you're. It's a. It's a bit of a story about people being. Having no support. And I wanted to ask kind of ultimately, what network sustained you while you were inside? Was it. Was it an immediate thing where the folks that you were, that you knew on the outside were, Were. Were quickly involved in this as support? Or did. Did the support change over time? Just, you know, can you talk a little bit about your own relationship to support throughout your stay? Yeah.

Eric King (28:35)

So about the people with no support, just to touch on that. There's three hundred and fifty people in that prison. I'd imagine 200 of them have not received a letter in 10 years. I know that I became the sole support for six different people inside there. As in the only person who could get them letters. The only person. Like, if I hadn't been advocating for them, they would have essentially nothing. And that makes me sick. That makes me sick to my stomach. That you can not only be isolated from the prison world, isolated from your friends, but then also isolated from any emotional development, any sort of connection. That's not right. Like, we're not dead. Like, prison should not be your burial. And if you're still alive, you should have the access to feel like a human no matter what. And for me, I was blessed. I was one of the lucky chosen one that the leftist movement, radical movement, abolitionist movement, anarchist movement, decided deserve support. And we try to do our best, but there's only so many people in these movements, and you only have so many spoons. Like, there's only so much energy you can give. And so I'm. I'm blessed. I had books, I had magazines, I had. I had letters when I was allowed letters. I went two years ago, I wasn't allowed mail. I had phone calls when I Was allowed phone calls. I went five years without phone calls. These things are things that are, are beyond belief. Gifts from the universe and from people that love me. I had a wife the entire time I was in. She never stopped writing me, never stopped visiting me, never stopped advocating for me. I had people that would get my name out there, get my writings out there, get my words out there. And a part of that was because, like, I advocated so much in prison. Like, I didn't, I didn't become some Nazi when I hit the yards. I didn't fold all my beliefs. I stood up for trans prisoners. I, I stood up for interracial unity. I did these things that put me in harm's way a lot. And people responded to that accordingly, like, if you're going to stand up for us, we're going to stand up for you. But it shouldn't, and I'm not saying it always is, but it should never have to be a you earn support situation. And our communities don't always do that. They do really well. But a lot of times we have this popularity contest where someone's actions determine if they get love or not. Someone's words or deeds are what deem them worthy of love. And that's really hard for me to stomach because not all of us have the ability to stand up for our rights. Someone that's been in prison for 13 years and had to join a Nazi gang at the age of 17 or is going to get raped, he doesn't have the option to speak up against that stuff. He will die. Even if he hates everything it stands for, does that person not still deserve to be seen as a human? I don't feel that way. Even the worst Nazi scum on Earth, I don't feel it's the prison's job to bury them. It's our job to either fight them, recruit them, change them, work with them, talk to them, let us do it. If we disagree with it, don't let the prison bury them. Same with the jihadi. Same with, Same with anyone. And so I'm the lucky one. But that's why if you get that sort of love and support, you have to pay it forward or you're a piece of. If you're not sharing that with other people and trying to give them what you have. You are a selfish, greedy human, and I don't respect you. And I stand on that for anyone who gets support and doesn't pass it on. That includes in the free world, if you've got money, you got gifts, you got access and Privilege. And you're not helping others. Get out of my face. You're not a good person.

Michael Stout (32:14)

Yeah, no, I hear that. I wanted to, you know, you were just talking about your own resistance inside. I wanted to return. Return to this ethnographic side of the book where you write a chapter about what you call real resistance and real consequences. So could you talk about some of the consequences that you did face for those acts of resistance?

Eric King (32:34)

You're such a professor, by the way. Ethnographic. Who the hell knows what that means? Where's my God? Where's my dictionary? Like the, the graphics of people inside. Is that what that means?

Michael Stout (32:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the, the way that your book gives us insight into the experience, you know, like how it functions so well as this. Like, you know, like you said, like the most recent book about the left and all this kind of stuff, that kind of. Sorry.

Eric King (33:02)

Believe it or not, I went to college.

Michael Stout (33:03)

Yikes. Great. Yeah, of course.

Eric King (33:07)

So one thing we never, ever, ever hear about, especially once again in leftist circles, is what resistance looks like on any capacity. And a part of that is because no disrespect to modern leftists, we've gone to the point where we kind of lay down in prison. It's not a safe space. So lay down means, like you, you just go with the flow. You might write some critiques or whatever, but a lot of us have chosen a path of I'll just let this happen and move on with my life, which is fine. I chose a different path. I was all action on the streets, so I'm going to be all action inside. And a lot of times that means small things. Be nice to people. That's an act of resistance. They're telling you you have to husk. Hurry up, get where you're going. I'll walk very slow, simple. They're going to talk really trash to me. You're a scumbag piece of shit. You can tell them. I bet your mom loves you, huh? I bet you've got friends that really respect you. Just small nitpicking things. But then there's also the very serious things. The self defense against Lieutenant you could call that resistance. Because I didn't let him beat the shit out of me. I'm not going to let you take that from me. That safety, running the team. I can go on that in a bit if you want. Running the team is a very serious act of resistance. It is violent, but you take it because it's. I'm gonna stand up for myself. There's also drastic Measures that people do. Like you lose your mind in there. Like things like throwing in a guard's face, shitting in a bowl, pouring rotten milk on it, mixing it up. That doesn't come out of thin air. That comes from feeling so degraded. Like I would ask people that are listening to. Imagine you only have contact with one human on earth and it's only through letters. And the guards stand in front of your cell and rip up those letters in front of your face and laugh at you. Or you come back from your dog kennel and they have pissed on your floor and pissed on those letters. And imagine this happens for months and months and you can't do anything about it. You complain, you write grievances, you talk to the warden. Nothing happens. Every time you complain, you get pubic hairs in your food. Real ones. Real. What you have to fight with what you have, the tools you have are now your body. So if you're going to take away my dignity, I will take away your dignity. It's nothing to be proud of. But in those moments, sometimes you have to cling to any sort of self autonomy. I, I have to defend myself now. And sometimes that gets you messed up. Like I've got scars on my head from a 6 foot 4 guard that I was handcuffed behind my back that was just tired of me and he picked me up and slammed me on my skull, split my head open. I got seven stitches. I couldn't walk for a month because I was puking so bad because of the concussion. I could have died. And he did that because of my word resistance. Not physical resistance, word resistance. So there are risk to this battle and you have to determine what your, what your risk are worth. And sometimes I did lose track of the goal. And the goal is to get home. The goal was to get home to your family. I lost track of that a lot. And so my resistance became stupid at times such as running the team and throwing in guards faces.

Michael Stout (36:20)

Right, right, right. Well, I wanted to talk. Well, two things. I, I do want to hear more about the running the team, but I also wanted to hear about the image. Now one of the, some of the images that you include that those had a deep impression on me and I think that the images work really well alongside your descriptions to create, I mean like a harrowing picture of this, of this experience and one of those that, that features prominently. I'm not sure if the one on the COVID is this, this four point resistance or if you're on your way or what. But like can you talk a Little bit about that because that was deep and I felt like I. I just wanted, for the list, for folks that are listening to this, tell us a little bit about that type of stuff which, which felt really intense.

Eric King (37:01)

Sure. There is torture that happens within the Federal Bureau of Prisons that no one will ever hear about and no one will ever see. The COVID of the book is something called a striker chair. That's not four points. That's just a chair that straps you down so that you can't move an inch of your body and they can do whatever they want to you. And they use that chair usually to wheel you into something worse. And if you go to page like three or four, you'll see me chained to that bed in my underwear. And four pointing is a. In the old days they used to call it quartering. They would chain your arms and your legs to make a letter X. And that happened to me. And it happened to me for seven and a half hours. And I still can't feel parts of my hand, my arm. It gets worse every day. Most of my like left leg, I can't feel on my left leg. Like the nerves are dead. And the pain in my neck, the pain in my chest, it doesn't go away because you are chained. And those handcuffs are as hard as they can get around your wrist. You lose feeling in your hands within seconds. Same with your ankles. But the pain radiates because you're stretched as far as you can go and you can't breathe and you can't move and your body rebels instantly saying this is not okay. And you, you exist. Every second of your life during that time is the most painful second you've ever had. And it drives people insane. I've heard people screaming for God, screaming for their moms help, and no one cares. The guards would come up to me and put their hands over my mouth. So I, I think they're going to kill me. And the only reason that we approve for this, because people would hear this. Your readers or listeners might hear this and not believe me. So we have pictures. No one has pictures. And we have those because I took the self defense to trial. That means we get all the discovery. It's ours. And so if I hadn't done that, who would believe me that the government's doing this, Making you piss on yourself, chained to a bed, getting suffocated? No one would believe me. But now you have to believe me.

Michael Stout (39:01)

I was wondering, I'm not sure if it was a specific question that I sent to you or not, but it was like, I was like, how did you get these pictures? Where did these pictures come from? And it's because that, and that's actually again, one of the things that's priceless about the book is the kind of insight into this specific experience that it affords people. And one of the only reasons that it does is because you took that, that case to trial, as you said, and got these types of things through discovery. So that was, that was another type.

Eric King (39:29)

Of resistance going to trial. That's big resistance, saying, I'm believing in myself more than this government to crush me. I believe in myself. I'm gambling on me because I know I'm right. In this one case, I'm right. I did do the other crime, this one I didn't. And I'm gonna stand on it. But because of that, like they're, they don't really four point like that as much anymore. Because a man named Thomas Smith got his shoulder ripped out of his socket. He had to have shoulder surgery immediately. His arm would have got amputated. He was chained to that bed for 28 hours, shitting himself, pissing himself, having food shoved in his face. That is real torture. And they are doing that to men and women in our prison system with your tax dollars. And no one should be okay with that.

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Michael Stout (42:16)

Yeah, it's a revelation in a lot of ways. Now just to return, kind of like stay on this subject a little bit, but talk about the relationship between repression, resistance and even like the feelings. Because again, one of the things that's very powerful that you make sure to include is this idea about almost like the psychological gains of resistance, the way it makes you feel and that kind of thing. So talk again. We've mentioned this thing a couple of times, but running the team can you define what it means to run the team for folks and then also talk about why would someone choose to do that? You have a specific example. I hope you talk about it.

Eric King (42:58)

Yeah, I got one. So there's a time when at my I was in the segregated housing unit 23 hour lockdown, and the warden decided that they were going to take away our radios, our books, our magazines, our deodorant, our shampoo and our coffee. Everything that gave us a sense of humanity, they're now going to take from us. And that was not okay with me. You can't put us 23 hour lockdown and then say you can't read books, you can't hear sound. And I already didn't have visits or the phone calls. So for me that would have been a complete and that's what happened during George Floyd. Even I didn't know that was even happening. But so I said no. And my best friend smiles, Randy Platt, who's still at adx, said no. We were pre Trial together. He had cut a copy at the same prison. God bless them. But what happens is they can only take so much before you say no. And that's not for everyone. Some people will allow that. And I've got a line. And when that line becomes, I don't know, it changes. But at this point, it was, you're not taking my radio. You're not going to do it. And so we did a barricade. Different cells, but a barricade in the Federal Bureau of Prison. The guards have to see you once an hour. They have to see that you're alive. It's policy that you're not, that you didn't kill yourself. And so you put a sheet over your bars, you tie it so that they can no longer see you. And then they'll give you warnings for hours. Take it down, take it down, take it down. And some people yell, some people cuss at them. I say, silent, come get it. Like, I know what time it is. Come on. And so after about four hours, they'll bring a lieutenant. A lieutenant, a chaplain and a psychologist, and they will talk. There's better ways we can do this. We can. We can solve this problem. You know this isn't the answer, but you also know you can't solve this problem because you've been trying to solve it for two months, doing everything that they ask you to. And so you've been shown that there's no other way. And so you say nothing or go to hell. And then once you say that, then they give you the true version of them.

Michael Stout (45:09)

You.

Eric King (45:10)

You, Elmo, we're gonna you up. You're a coward. We know you're gonna cuff up. You're a. You're gonna cuff up. Come get it. Let's see if I'm gonna cuff up, you coward. And so then you hear the troops, and it's like a marching band, and it's seven men wearing the full riot gear. The helmets, the pads, the brass knuckles on their. On their. On their gloves, full body armor and their shields. And they're staying at the door, and they're slapping their shields. It feels like Rome. And they're trying to scare you. They're trying to break you. And I would say 90 of the time people cough up, they'll be like, okay, I'm done. I'm done. Because the guards will give you one last warning. Stick your hands between these bars, cuff up, and we'll let you out of this. And you won't get beaten too bad. I had a celly at that Time and the, the shoe. And he cuffed up on the top bunk between the bars like a coward. I don't know how this dude can live with himself ever again because he stuck his hands through the bars. I'll never forget that dude. Golly, no dignity. People in the free world won't understand that, but hopefully I can explain it. And so then they shoot you a pepper spray. 37 second blast of just deep, deep pepper spray. And it burns instantly. You're, you're breathing it in. It's hard to breathe. You're snot eyes running, your ears are burning. And they do a second spray for seven seconds, then a third spray and they're yelling at you, going to cuff up. We know you're finished. We know you're a coward. You just give them the finger, you just stay silent. And then they have this pepper ball gun and it's like a paintball gun, but it's filled with. The paint balls are filled with pepper spray powder. So. And it sprays all over and so it leaves welts all over your back if you don't have a. My coward Sally took all the blankets and like all the sheets to cover himself. So I didn't have any protection this hoe. And so they shoot you 11 shots and then 11 more shots and then 11 more shots. And they're trying to do it all over the cell too so that the powder falls in your face. And then they say one last time, are you gonna cuff up? And this is your last chance. And sometimes I've cuffed up. Then sometimes because you already done, you already, you already showed them what you're about. But sometimes you don't, sometimes you give them a come on. And then they open your cell door and these cowards rush in. Seven on one. And you can fight, you can lay down, you can try elbowing them, you try pushing them. Some people put the soap on the ground. But you go, you say, I am not going to bow down to your, your fear tactics anymore. I'm going to stand up to you. Sometimes they shoot fragment grenades in there. The, the sound grenades. I've had that happen too. And it makes it to where you cannot stand anymore because it radiates off the walls. And you will, you'll lay down or cuff up. But the feeling would be, and I don't want to compare it to rape, but I've had violent sexual assault in prison also. And the feeling of saying I am now going to control my environment and my body and you can't destroy me anymore. I am Going to do this on my terms for one goddamn time. And it's going to hurt me. I'm going to suffer. It's going to hurt for a long time, but God damn, I'm going to have that relief knowing that I did something for myself for once in this prison. And I still, when I'm feeling bad, I still think about standing up to that lieutenant and fighting him. I still think about the four pointing because those were moments to where I bet on myself again to say that I'm worth keeping safe. I am worth loving myself enough to not let this normal prison is whatever. When the outside extra stuff comes in, that's when you have to decide what you're worth standing on. And when you do that, it's a. We don't get very many chances to feel pride inside. We don't get many chances to love ourselves and feel that we've. We've done well. And so you, you grasp those. No matter how stupid they sound, you grasp onto them and you hold them and you cherish them. Because this is a brief, fleeting moment of control and power. And it's, it's hard to describe the joy it gives when you have no other joy.

Michael Stout (49:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet. Now, I wanted to ask also about the, how the experience changed you. You mentioned in other, in other interviews that I've listened to that you were. And you mentioned here as well that you were an action first person prior to your incarceration. Did that experience change your politics? Or like, how do you, what do you think about that stuff today? Yeah.

Eric King (49:55)

Yeah. So I was young man, I was young and my politics were all destroyed. I was angry at the world. I grew up in poverty. I wanted to tear down the systems that I felt repressed. Us, banks, racist police, just these repressive systems that deny people access to equity, inequality in the world. And that revolved around guns, it revolved around bricks, it revolved around squats and like just tearing down. And as I went through prison, I started learning by. Through myself and through the kindness that was shown me from others and the hatred that was shown to me from others, that I am not going to tear down a system without building up a system. And that taught me that we can develop and grow and build the things that we need to make what they have obsolete. We have the tools within us to grow with love and decency and honor what we want. If we don't like their racist schools, we build up our own. We can police our own communities according to our own ethics. We can feed ourselves if we invest in that, in the, the growing, the unity, the communities, we have that power. And once we do that on our own, we take it from them. So my anarchism, I talk about this a lot, but it became open arms, it became, how can I help? How can I lift up somebody? How can I make someone else's day better? How can I assure that I am not someone else's prison, prison guard? I never want to repress someone else to where now I'm policing them the way that I was. So I believe in accountability. To where if someone does something wrong, we don't. We don't beat them up or kick them out. We talk with them like, how do you heal yourself to where you won't do this again? And how do you heal the person that you harmed? I believe in these things because that's how we grow. Vengeance doesn't work. We've seen it. Vengeance does not work. Capitalism does not work, or we wouldn't have immense poverty, we wouldn't have hunger. So I now believe in a world to where if we care enough about our own communities, then we can make them change and develop the way we need them to. And we won't need to always have the guns and the Molotovs and the whatever. I still believe in direct action, if that's what you're about, because every fight needs multiple different tactics from multiple angles. And I'm never going to tell someone that has righteous anger that they can't act in a way that they feel represents that anger. But for me now, as someone that's been through what I've been through, I'm going a different direction and that's trying to push people towards what can we do to help and what can I do to advocate for you? And I see that, by the way. I see that in Charlottesville. I see that in Reno, Nevada. I see that in Sacramento and New Orleans, in these, in the Inland Empire, in California, I see these things happening where they are just. Nor Cal resists just looking out for communities without asking for government help. We will protect us. And I see it work on a micro level and I believe it can happen on a macro level. And we don't need these. We don't need this government to keep us safer, to keep us whole.

Michael Stout (53:02)

Yeah, yeah. Now that leads me to another question, which is the people that you know, the networks that you're involved in and that you kind of like work in yourself, does that mean that they shift also before and after, if that makes sense. You know, like you Hang out with different people now than you hung out with them. Is it organizational stuff? You know, I mean, like, does that make sense?

Eric King (53:23)

I mean, much like, like free world stuff. Friends come and go as you develop and you grow. I'm not hanging out with people right now that I know are actively doing violence and crime. I'm on federal probation. You're not going to get me sent back to prison. I'm not doing that shit again. I honor those people. I. I see them, I know who they are. I see those groups and I respect their resistance to, to ice, to SNAP benefits, getting cut, all this stuff. But what I also, the people that I'm around mostly now are people like NorCal, resist who you're going to cut SNAP benefits. We're going to find ways to feed this community. You're going to start snatching people. We're going to be in the courtrooms. You're going to start stealing status from people. We're going to have lawyers on hand to help them get legal status. And I see that in Charlottesville. I see, as I said, I see that a lot of places. Eugene, Oregon, Portland, Bellingham, Washington. There's these groups and communities that I just love with all my heart. People like Melissa and Taylor and Isis and Josh and Joey and Courtney and just all Beau in New Orleans, I named them because they deserve to be named Nicole and Reno, because they are dedicating their lives to projects that only help. All they do is help. And if you can't, if you can't see the beauty in that and honor that, then there's a good chance you're a bad person. Once again, if you don't see the value in feeding people that don't have food and giving diapers to poor mothers and giving tents to people who have been had their tents stolen by the government, like, that is. That's God's work. Like, if you're a Christian, that's what you're supposed to do. If you're a decent human, that's what you're supposed to do. The only people who don't want that, like, who are those people? They're the people with swastikas, they're the people with badges. And God bless all those groups I just named. There's something I left out too. There's good groups doing good stuff.

Michael Stout (55:24)

Well, is the book an opportunity to do some of the. That travel and meet those people and kind of connect with these different things? Is it. Do you self consciously think of it as an opportunity to do that kind of stuff? And that's related to another question that I had about the process of. Of getting the book out. But maybe you could talk a little bit about if you have other big events or a tour planned or anything like that.

Eric King (55:49)

I don't do the tour planning. It's more like if someone wants me to go somewhere and talk, then they reach out to me and we find a way to make it happen. I've got. I'm talking at the Howard Sin Book Fair in December, on December 7th. So that's a really beautiful event. But the book has opened those doors. Like, I talked once again to Charlottesville a couple days ago, and 60 people showed up. But we also. Do they also do a prisoner letter writing night the day before. And I use this book as a tool to advocate not for myself, but for those still inside. Here's my experiences, but it's not just me. These have happened to a lot of other people and they're still happening. So how much do we care about this? Do we care about it enough to write letters? Enough to do write in campaigns or call in campaigns? Or do we only care enough to show up at reading events and talk? Because if you only believe in talk, then we're probably not on the same page. That's probably not good enough. But, like, I should. I'm hoping to go to New York here soon. I'm hoping to go to Philly here soon. I've been really absent from the east coast for some reason. We're going to do a virtual talk with Firestorm Books in Asheville here soon. There's things that are happening that people care. People want to hear these things. They want to know what's happening. And if you're at a school or a college, get me out there. I do it for free. I just want the flights covered. Like the University of Oregon, they. They got me out there. Other places I've done that. And it's because I have a unique voice. I'm not special, but special stuff did happen to me. And since I've had this happen, I have an ability to share with others. And that's what the book has opened up for me, just a little more voice. Because I wouldn't be on this show without a. Without a book. Like, I wouldn't be doing these podcasts. Don't give a about me. But I have a voice now. And if you have that voice and you don't use it, as we said, you're probably a piece of shit. Colleges get me out there, right? Yeah, that's great.

Michael Stout (57:54)

That's Great. I wanted one more thing. You know, this is. We're kind of. This is. Maybe I'm asking a question that you've already answered, but I wanted to ask toward the end of this conversation, what do you hope to achieve with this book? Is it. Is it this? Did you have that specific task in mind when you completed it, that. That those kinds of things would be on the horizon?

Eric King (58:15)

Real. I do want to touch on, like, how it happened real quick. And it happened because of Joey and Courtney at PM Press. Like those, those people believe in me and they gave me a chance. The whole PM Press gang, they didn't have to do that. They could have said, sorry, we're not interested in this. And they didn't offer the most money either. But what they offered me was a belief. We believe in you. We will help you. And that's once again community. So Joey and Courtney, like, I will never, I will never not ride for PM Press as long as I live because they are beautiful, beautiful people who care. But when I wrote this book, I wrote it as a sense of therapy. I needed to get this stuff out. I needed people to know this happened to me. I needed people to see the pictures and, and know that this is still happening today. This isn't from the 1980s. This happened four years ago. And if you think the prison has all of a sudden reformed under Trump, I suggest you think again. Like, just let's use common sense here. So it was this dual thing, like a responsibility to those I saw, a responsibility to care. Like, I want other people to care. And then also just like real therapy, dude. Because that trauma is no joke. I still cry. Every talk I do, I sob because it. You leave prison, but prison doesn't always leave you. It leaves its hooks in you. It leaves its scars in you. It leaves its trauma within you. And you've got to find ways to shake that off.

Marshall Po (59:46)

And a good.

Eric King (59:47)

A way that I found that helps is writing about it and then having people hear it. If your trauma is heard and said, we see you and we're sorry. Well, that's like, all right. Well, God damn. Like, now I'm not just. It wasn't in vain. Now it's not invisible suffering. Like, now I'm a human. And that's all you need. Like, once you feel like a human, you can start healing and existing like one support group.

Michael Stout (60:11)

Right? I was wondering about that, about the, about what it's like to be asked about these extremely traumatic things that have happened. And, and. But I think that that's a really helpful way to think about it. And I just think that the insight that as you just said, the insight that this book provides into this experience which is contemporary and in the present, is the willingness to talk about the the difficult internal struggles that incarcerated people face. You mentioned this in the book that there's not a lot of emphasis on that those kinds of emotional experiences and even in a lot of the memoirs that we, that we know and that we have is is such a valuable experience to what we. You know, to what we know about the prisons and all this kind of stuff today. So I it's been a pleasure talking to you. I really and a privilege to read this book. So thank you very much.

Eric King (61:00)

Can I just sign off with something real quick?

Michael Stout (61:02)

Yes, of course.

Eric King (61:03)

One Once again colleges and universities having out there. I really do love that for real talking to talking to students. But please support prisoners Go to the NYC ABC newsletter. There's a list of prisoners. Go to Black and Pink. There's a list of queer prisoners. Find any books through bars in your community and they will have a list of prisoners. If you're in Chicago, Midwest Books to Prisoners has a thou you can reach out to them. If you're not Chicago, they have a list of thousands of prisoners that they help every day. There are ways to help people and you don't have to like them, you don't have to like what they did. But you can appreciate the fact that they are going through something hard and they deserve love. Just like you would deserve love if you did something someone found reprehensible. Pretend they're your brother, your mother, your grandparent, and please show them that same amount of love.

Michael Stout (61:51)

Yeah, that's a great note to finish on and I'm glad you mentioned that. For our listeners, A Clean Hell, Anarchy and Abolition in America's Most Notorious Dungeon is available now from PM Press and you can find it wherever fine books are sold. Eric, I thank you again for being on the show today.

Eric King (62:06)

Congratulations on the book, Sam.