Podcast Summary:

New Books Network

Episode: Erika Pani, "Torn Asunder: Republican Crises and Civil Wars in the United States and Mexico, 1848-1867"
Host: Steve Houseman
Guest: Dr. Erika Pani
Date: November 26, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Steve Houseman interviews Dr. Erika Pani about her new book Torn Asunder: Republican Crises and Civil Wars in the United States and Mexico, 1848-1867. The conversation delves into the turbulent mid-19th century, exploring parallel republican crises and civil wars in the neighboring countries of Mexico and the United States. The dialogue emphasizes comparative history, explores the failures and transformations of republican governance, discusses the aftermath of war and reconstruction, and reflects on long-term consequences for both countries and their bilateral relations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Erika Pani’s Path to History and the Book’s Genesis

• [03:04] Dr. Pani describes her early love for history, shaped by inspirational teachers.
• Her research evolved from Mexico’s second empire to a broader comparative investigation of 19th-century crises in both Mexico and the US.
• She credits scholarly collaboration—as in colloquia organized by Don Doyle, Frank Towers, and Matthew Karp—with shaping her insight that these two histories must be told together.
• Quote:
  “I kind of realized that there were a lot of things that you could see if you thought about this period in a broader context and comparatively... not only parallel developments but also connections.” (06:13, Pani)

2. 1848: A Year of Continental Crisis

• [08:42] Pani reframes 1848 beyond Europe:
  • While often remembered for European revolutions, 1848 was a transformative year in North America, marking America’s emergence as a continental nation following the US-Mexico war and the halving of Mexican territory.
  • This territorial upheaval set the stage for political polarization in both countries.
• Quote:
  “These fascinating images kind of blind us to the huge transformation that is going on in North America, which is basically a geopolitical territorial transformation. After the war between the US and Mexico, Mexico loses half of its territory and the US becomes a continental nation...” (09:15, Pani)

3. Paths to Civil War: Similarities and Differences

• [10:42] Similarities:
  • Growing polarization, narrowing political consensus, and collapse of politics into violence.
  • Constitutions and party systems fail to resolve the fundamental disputes.
• Differences:
  • US: Central issue is slavery and its expansion.
  • Mexico: The core dilemma is the role of the Catholic Church and “what to do with God in the republic.”
• Quote:
  “The political parties aren't digesting these problems…that eventually brings about the collapse of the republic and the outbreak of civil war.” (12:37, Pani)

4. Failed Experiments in Government: Confederacy and Conservative Mexico

• [15:43] Pani highlights the importance of taking the Confederate States and 1860s Mexican conservative governments seriously as political visions, even though they failed.
• Both operated from a sincere conviction of defending the republic; both grounded in maintaining hierarchy, order, and perceived natural social divisions.
• Quote:
  “They think that they're the only way they can save the republic… that the proposal of the adversary which has now become the enemy will lead the republic into the abyss and to destruction.” (15:47, Pani)
• In both countries, experiments tried to prize stability over politics—Confederates wanted to preserve order, Mexican conservatives to create it.

5. Aftermath: Reconstruction and Restoration

• [22:56] Postwar, both countries faced the challenge of rebuilding divided nations.
  • In the US: This era is known as Reconstruction, centered on constitutional amendments (13th, 14th, 15th) and integrating former opponents.
  • Mexico: The Republic is “restored” with less need for compromise, as conservatives are politically obliterated due to their alliance with France.
  • Comparison discussed (27:06): US faced stronger resistance to reform, while Mexico’s break with conservative forces was more absolute due to the execution of Emperor Maximilian and conservative generals.
• Quote:
  “There is this fascinating experience of how do you bring together nations that have been torn apart, a Humpty Dumpty that is broken into many pieces, and we have to put him back together.” (23:55, Pani)

6. Legal and Economic Transformations

• [30:48] Legal Regimes:
  • Both saw a “second founding” with new constitutions or amendments that centralized power and redefined citizenship.
  • US: Far-reaching legal transformation, especially via the 14th Amendment.
  • Mexico: National citizenship already existed, but the legal frame was consolidated.
• Economic Regimes:
  • US experienced dramatic wartime industrialization, centralization, and economic expansion.
  • Mexico’s civil war led mainly to destruction, not modernization—except in the northeast, partly due to cross-border cotton trade during the US Civil War.

7. Mexico–US Relations During and After the Wars

• [37:48] Pani addresses how these wars shifted bilateral relations:
  • While mythologized as a period of republican solidarity (e.g., the Juárez–Lincoln “friendship”), the reality was a mix of pragmatic diplomacy and persistent US ambitions for territorial expansion.
  • Postwar, with expansion less central, US-Mexico relations normalized and became more like US dealings with European countries—still asymmetrical but less predatory.
• Quote:
  “Once territorial expansion is not on the menu anymore, Mexico and the US can treat each other as they treat other nations...” (45:07, Pani)

8. Does the Story Continue Beyond the 1860s?

• [47:03] Pani suggests the close intertwining of Mexican and US history is especially intense during these crisis decades; after the 1860s, their histories diverge despite continuing geographic proximity.
• Only in the late 19th century, with US investment and railroads, do economic ties intensify again.

9. Takeaways and Lessons for Today

• [51:20] Pani hopes her book shows:

  • The utility of comparative history—finding both similarities and differences between the two republics informs both national narratives.
  • The fragility and resilience of republics—such systems are open-ended, always requiring citizen participation and renewal.

• Quote:
  “The republic as on the one hand a fragile thing because it is held together by the will of very different people with very different interests... but also its resilience... The possibilities are, you know, practically endless.” (52:04, Pani)

• [54:12] Host Steve Houseman draws parallels to contemporary global challenges to republican and democratic ideals, noting this history provides rich insight into how republics cope with internal crisis.

10. What’s Next for Erika Pani?

• [55:44] Pani is working on a collective project about postwar restoration/reconstruction, and a political-intellectual biography of Mariam Parro Ruiz de Burto—a Mexican-born, California-resident novelist who epitomizes the personal cross-border histories of the era.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Comparative History:
  “When I say talk about doing comparative work with the US and Mexico, colleagues reactions are kind of guarded. And aren't you comparing apples and oranges?... I think that similarities can be... there are a lot of things that we share across the border in terms of political experience.” (51:20, Pani)
• On the Nature of Republics:
  “The republic as on the one hand a fragile thing... but also its resilience. The fact that the possibilities of popular sovereignty allow for both conservation and change in response to context...” (52:04, Pani)
• On the Aftermath in Mexico:
  “In Mexico, the conservatives are completely obliterated because they are set up as traitors to the nation, because they allied themselves with this foreign intervention...” (28:45, Pani)
• On Ongoing Relevance:
  “I saw some comparisons, too, today, even if you don't want to pull them too far.” (54:23, Houseman)
• On Future Research Directions:
  “I focused on law and constitution and party and then violence. So I'm really excited to work on a person... a fascinating author, novelist...” (56:12, Pani)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Erika Pani’s academic journey: [03:04]
• Why combine Mexico and US histories: [06:13]
• Importance of 1848: [08:42]
• Similarities/Differences in paths to civil war: [10:42]
• Confederacy & Mexican conservatives comparison: [15:43]
• Reconstruction/restoration after civil wars: [22:56]
• Legal and economic changes: [30:48]
• US-Mexico relations transformation: [37:48]
• Long-term similarities/differences: [47:03]
• Main lessons/takeaways: [51:20]
• Upcoming research: [55:44]

Final Reflection

This episode offers a compelling and accessible comparative lens on 19th-century American and Mexican republican crises. Dr. Pani’s work not only illuminates overlooked historical parallels but also provides essential context for understanding the resilience and fragility of republics—then and now. The discussion encourages a reconsideration of North American history as a shared, interconnected experience, yielding valuable lessons for present-day challenges to democratic governance.