Podcast Summary: "Fiona J. Mackenzie, 'The Cadence of a Song: The Life of Margaret Fay Shaw'"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Fiona J. Mackenzie
Date: September 25, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the life and legacy of Margaret Fay Shaw, as detailed in Fiona J. Mackenzie’s new biography, The Cadence of a Song: The Life of Margaret Fay Shaw. Shaw, an American by birth, devoted her life to collecting, documenting, and preserving Gaelic song and culture in the Scottish Hebrides. The conversation ranges from Shaw’s unconventional journey from Pittsburgh to South Uist, her groundbreaking work as both a folklorist and photographer, her unique partnership with husband John Lorne Campbell, and the ongoing legacy housed in Canna House.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Fiona’s Background and Motivation for the Book

• Fiona’s Credentials: Fiona introduces herself as an independent researcher, professional Gaelic singer, and former archivist with three decades’ experience in Hebridean musical archives (02:46).
• Connection to Shaw: Her deep fascination with Margaret Fay Shaw, particularly from her tenure as archivist at Canna House, motivated Fiona to write the first comprehensive biography of Shaw—a project described as “a labor of love and something I had to do” (03:47).

2. Shaw’s Early Years and Draw to the Hebrides

• Background: Born in 1903 in Pittsburgh to a privileged steelmaking family, Shaw was musically gifted but “always felt that she was looking for something, but she didn’t know what she was looking for.” Orphaned young, she was raised by sisters and sent to Scotland at age 16 (04:46).

• Turning Point: Encountering Marjory Kennedy-Fraser’s Gaelic songs in her Scottish boarding school, Shaw was “instantly drawn to these songs, but she knew somehow, instinctively, that they weren’t the original,” igniting her mission to find the authentic roots of Gaelic music (06:07).

  “It was really that night [2nd December 1920] that kind of set the course for the rest of her life.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (07:22)

3. Arrival and Integration into South Uist

• Selection of South Uist: After several years of travel and study, Shaw chose South Uist for its authenticity and immersive Gaelic culture—despite family skepticism and her own battle with arthritis (08:45).
• Community Acceptance: Shaw was initially “regarded by the locals as a bit of an oddity,” but won their hearts with her dedication, willingness to learn Gaelic, and ability to record their culture with respect and affection (11:29).
• Daily Life: Lived in a tiny croft house with the McRae sisters, worked alongside locals, and eventually regarded South Uist as her home: “She felt that she was like a little bird that had come to roost from Pittsburgh and had found her roost in South Uist” (17:16).
• Collection Methods: She transcribed songs and stories manually, her musical ear and increasing Gaelic proficiency allowing her to capture nuances lost in other collectors’ work (15:59).
• Photography: Often forgotten, Shaw was “one of the first female photographers of the 20th century, particularly in Scotland” (13:03).

4. Marriage to John Lorne Campbell and Folklore Partnership

• Meeting John: John, from a landed family in Argyll, met Margaret while seeking photographs for his book on Barra. Their relationship developed gradually from professional collaboration to marriage:

  “She started off as being Dear Ms. Shaw. And then it became Margaret. And you can see that a relationship of sorts grew up between them.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (18:41)

• Partnership Dynamics: Their skills complemented one another: John brought technical and linguistic expertise, while Margaret provided musical intuition and community rapport. Their marriage, as Fiona describes, was more “pragmatic than romantic,” though deeply affectionate (22:23).

5. Canna House, World War II, and The Archives

• Move to Canna: The couple bought the island of Canna in 1938 to make it a center of Gaelic culture. WWII disrupted their efforts; John suffered a breakdown, leaving Margaret to manage the island (26:56).
• Continued Work: Amidst war and island management, Margaret combed through her collected material and began work on a seminal publication (28:48).
• Cultural Hub: Canna House became a “Bloomsbury set location, but set in the Hebrides”—hosting artists, scientists, and intellectuals even during war years (31:15).
• Documentation: Margaret was a meticulous letter-writer and maintained detailed visitor books, contributing invaluable context to the archives (32:16).

6. Margaret’s Legacy and Gendered Recognition Issues

• Underrecognized Achievements: Despite her prodigious output—over 6,000 photographs, vast song transcriptions—Margaret’s contributions were long overshadowed by her husband’s reputation. Fiona’s book consciously addresses this imbalance:

  “Her work is as significant, in many ways more so, than John’s work... Who was the real Margaret?”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (35:36)

• Distinct Approach: Margaret was more embedded in community life, more spontaneous in her documentation (“she would write down a verse of a song on the back of an envelope or a fag packet”), and beloved among locals in a way John was not (35:58).
• Later Life: While John’s work was published earlier and widely, Margaret’s main publications appeared in the 1950s and 1960s. She continued documenting, writing letters, and experimenting with photography well into her later decades (39:29).

7. The Present State of the Collection

• Canna House Today: The full archive remains intact at Canna House, per John and Margaret’s wishes and as stipulated in the gift to the National Trust for Scotland (40:45).
• Fiona’s Stewardship: Fiona details the ongoing work of preparing the archives for eventual public access, and celebrates the crucial stewardship of her predecessor, Magda Suckersasu—a Basque woman who became integral to the preservation efforts (42:02).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shaw’s Motivation:
  “She was doing it for love. She wasn’t doing it at that time for any form of anthropological meaning... It was purely out of the love of it.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (12:24)

• On Community Acceptance:
  “No, she smoked like a trooper and she drank like a fish. But they thought she was great and they took her to their hearts and she likewise.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (14:58)

• On Research Process:
  “She could take 12 different transcriptions of a song and you see her Gaelic abilities progressing as the more and more and more she listened to songs.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (15:59)

• On the Differences Between John and Margaret:
  “John was always Dr. Campbell, whereas Margaret was... very much the lassie living amongst them. And this comes out in her photographs in particular. You can see that the people loved her and respected her.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (36:02)

• On Preserving Archives:
  “[John] never wanted the archives to leave Canna House. They had to remain on island, which again is quite unique.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (40:57)

• Fiona’s Personal Motivation:
  “It’s my vocation and my love. And I just want people to hear about the work of John and Margaret Campbell and to get to know them and to love them as much as I do.”
  — Fiona J. Mackenzie (46:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:46 – Fiona introduces herself and explains connection to Margaret Shaw
• 04:46 – Margaret Shaw’s childhood and first exposure to Scottish music
• 06:07 – The transformative recital and her life’s mission
• 08:45 – Her search for a Hebridean home and challenges faced
• 11:29 – Adjusting to and being accepted in South Uist
• 13:03 – Shaw’s pioneering work as a photographer
• 18:41 – Meeting John Lorne Campbell and starting their collaboration
• 26:56 – Move to Canna, impact of WWII, and Canna House as cultural hub
• 31:15 – Sociable world of Canna in war and postwar years
• 35:36 – Margaret’s legacy and the need to redress academic recognition
• 39:29 – Life and work after 1963
• 40:45 – Current status and stewardship of the archives
• 42:02 – Tribute to Magda Suckersasu and continuity of archive work
• 46:31 – Fiona’s ongoing creative and archival projects

Closing Note

The Cadence of a Song: The Life of Margaret Fay Shaw shines a light on an underappreciated preserver of Gaelic song and culture, exploring a remarkable transatlantic journey, the power of female-driven documentation, and the living legacy of archives on Canna. As Fiona J. Mackenzie reminds listeners:

“Canna House... is such a house of stories that everywhere you turn there is something that you can do. There’s so many avenues for research... I can’t let it go.” (45:33)

For further insights, anecdotes, and the full story, listeners are encouraged to pick up the book.