Podcast Summary: "Ghost in the Criminal Justice Machine"

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode Date: January 29, 2026
Host: Christina Gessler
Guest: Emile Sotonye DeWeaver, author of Ghost in the Criminal Justice Reform: White Supremacy and an Abolitionist Future

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep and reflective conversation between Christina Gessler and Emile Sotonye DeWeaver, whose book dissects how white supremacy permeates the US criminal justice system and explores pathways toward an abolitionist, liberated future. Drawing from his own 21-year incarceration, DeWeaver addresses how reform efforts frequently reinforce existing power hierarchies, the limitations of personal accountability narratives, and the necessity for collective, community-led change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Emile DeWeaver’s Background & Motivation

• Background:
  • DeWeaver is a Black American and Nigerian American, former journalist and activist, co-founder of a nonprofit, and a survivor of 21 years of incarceration—most of it under a life sentence that was eventually commuted.
  • Main passion: Understanding and dismantling internalized systems of oppression (“whether it's white supremacy, whether it's patriarchy...even as we’re trying to dismantle them...we continue to just build new versions of the same thing” [02:26]).
• Inspiration to Write:
  • The book arose from struggles to address oppression within activist circles—even among those fighting for liberation. DeWeaver recounts painful experiences, such as his friend’s transphobia within the prison, illuminating the insidiousness of interlocking oppressions ([03:59]).
  • Quote: “How can this man not understand white supremacy? How can he not understand that what he's doing as white supremacy isn't going to help Black communities, is ultimately undermining and going to fracture Black communities?” ([06:30])

Defining White Supremacy

• DeWeaver’s definition (paraphrased):
  • White supremacy is an ideology—rooted in religious hierarchy—normalized culturally and enforced structurally. It’s a broad metaphor for power, not merely skin color.
  • Quote: “As James Baldwin said, white is not a skin color. It’s a metaphor for power. And that's why it looks like Chase Bank.” ([08:45])
  • Key point: Anyone can perpetuate white supremacy if they reinforce hierarchical dominance—regardless of their identity.

Power & Reform in Prison Programming ([10:16] onward)

• Power Analysis Framework:
  • DeWeaver points to the recurring pattern: Reforms or programs in prisons often reinforce hierarchical structures. Donors and organizations—rather than incarcerated individuals themselves—accrue benefits and power.
  • Quote: “All the power either accrues to the organization or it accrues to the state in the form of the prison...the power of that generated from that performance for her motivated her to support a power structure” ([12:00]).
• Developed a numerical “power analysis” system:
  • Assigns values to stakeholders in a reform scenario to track if actual, structural power shifts, not just surface changes.

Parole and Accountability Systems ([16:11] onward)

• Parole boards are overwhelmingly composed of former law enforcement/corrections officials.
  • “You have people with a very particular mindset…they demand that incarcerated people before them name [the system] as just and believe it.” ([17:01])
• People remain trapped for decades, even when evidence of innocence surfaces, due to institutional inertia and self-protection ([18:26]).

False Solutions, “Near Enemies,” and Power Dynamics ([20:10] onward)

• DeWeaver applies the Buddhist concept of “near enemies” (emotional states that mimic but undermine true virtue) to criminal justice reform:
  • The “California Model” (replacing death row with “better” facilities and more money for corrections) doesn’t redistribute power or address structural injustice; it only bolsters the status quo.
  • Quote: “If we...don't dismantle the ideology...someone else is just going to replace them, and we're not going to be happy or satisfied because the people who replace them don't have white skin.” ([09:52])
  • On “near enemies”: “A near enemy...looks like the thing that you’re shooting for, but it actually undermines it.” ([21:32])
  • Detailed application of his power analysis: No real power shift occurs when money and new buildings go to correctional departments, not impacted people/communities.

Personal vs. Structural Accountability ([29:54] onward)

• Critique of Personal Responsibility as Reform:
  • The system’s requirements for “rehabilitation” force individuals to internalize blame, ignoring structural realities; this discourages true agency or collective change.
  • Quote: “Personal accountability...that is a strategy of hopelessness. That is a strategy of like nothing can change, we can’t change anything. So this is...the best way to survive.” ([31:23])
• Call to Collectivity:
  • Liberation requires collectivity—not isolated individual transformation.
  • “It's about creating the environment that will inevitably produce the results we want. And that environment is a collective community...that cares about each other” ([33:01])
  • Individual solutions or blame cannot overcome institutional injustices; collective approaches can.

Examples of Collective Action: Prison Renaissance ([35:19])

• DeWeaver describes co-founding Prison Renaissance as an effort to:
  • Rebuild nonprofit models so incarcerated individuals are leaders, not beneficiaries.
  • Ensure incarcerated people are compensated for their labor, rather than exploited as unpaid workers.
  • Create frameworks for real incarcerated leadership in transformation, rather than being led by outsiders.
• Quote: “I wanted to show them...We could do the same thing in a legislative hall. We could do the same thing in a nonprofit boardroom. So there’s not a reason...other than we had an imagination problem before this point, but we don't now.” ([39:10])

Takeaways: Clarity, Courage, Integrity ([40:10])

• What DeWeaver Hopes Listeners Take Away:
  • Clarity is empowering, even when painful.
  • “Clarity is power, and power is hope. Power is a real hope, right? Without power, hope is just an opiate.”
  • Developing the muscle of clarity, courage, and integrity leads to radical transformation.
  • Memorable quote: “If you put those three things together—clarity, courage, and integrity—it equals radical transformation. I have seen it over and over in my life. I have created miracles…with those three things put together.” ([41:10])

Selected Timestamps & Notable Quotes

• [03:59] DeWeaver’s story of the internal conflict with a fellow Black activist in prison, highlighting the complexity of oppression.
• [08:45] “White is not a skin color. It's a metaphor for power.” —DeWeaver, quoting Baldwin.
• [12:00] Story of donors privileging organizations over people directly impacted.
• [16:11] “The prison system itself is the opposite of collectivity...part of the ‘rehabilitation’ is about this script” — Gessler
• [21:32] Application of “near enemy” concept to social justice: “It looks like the thing that you're shooting for, but it actually undermines it.”
• [33:01] "It's about creating the environment that will inevitably produce the results we want...a collective community."
• [41:10] “Clarity, courage, and integrity...equals radical transformation.”

Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Emile’s insistence that redistributing power, not just resources or new buildings, is the core measure of genuine reform.
• The illustration of “near enemies” in social change, which cautions reformers about surface-level improvements.
• Personal anecdotes that humanize systemic critiques, e.g., friends sentenced for decades, even with evidence of innocence.
• Real-world models like Prison Renaissance that demonstrate incarcerated leadership and redefine what is possible with imagination and collective action.

Conclusion

This episode offers a uniquely honest critique of reform efforts and the criminal justice system. Emile Sotonye DeWeaver’s framework challenges listeners to move beyond individual responsibility narratives and focus on collective, structural transformation through clarity, courage, and integrity. His call is not to despair in the face of huge systems, but to ground hope in the real power that comes with deep understanding and collaborative action.

For greater depth, listeners are directed to chapters 1-3 of DeWeaver’s book, which elaborate the themes discussed here.