Podcast Summary

Overview

In this episode of the New Books Network's "New Books in Religion," host Dr. Raj Balkar interviews Dr. Gil Ben-Herut, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of South Florida. The discussion centers on Dr. Ben-Herut’s new co-translated publication Stories of Shiva’s Saints: Selections from Harihara’s Ragales (Oxford UP, 2025), produced with his mentor Professor Arvi S. Sundaram. The book makes accessible for the first time in English a selection of stories (ragales) by the 12th-century poet Harihara, offering a foundational glimpse into early Kannada Shaiva devotion and literature, as well as the complexities of translation from a rarely translated regional Indian language.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Scope of the Project

• Collaboration and Guru Bhakti
  • Dr. Ben-Herut stresses the collaborative nature of the translation with his mentor, Professor Arvi S. Sundaram, whom he credits as crucial to the project.
    • "This is a labor of co translation with my Canada teacher and mentor. His name is Arvi S. Sundaram, retired professor from the University of Mysore … and I'm indebted to him for doing this." (02:00–02:20)
• Academic Journey & Motivation
  • Dr. Ben-Herut’s interest began in 2009, upon discovering a retelling of a local saint’s legend by Harihara, eventually leading to his scholarly focus on the ragales and the need for a translation accessible beyond scholarly audiences.
    • "…I was so captivated by the stories, their historical significance, which I think is real, and also by just the pleasure of the narrative flow in Harihara's stories … I felt something is missing. … led to this publication of the actual translations of the stories, which kind of gives people an opportunity to access the material itself, and not just through my own scholarly lens." (03:39–05:25)

Thematic Context and Tradition

• Unique Features of the Texts
  • Harihara’s ragales are foundational for the Veerashaiva Lingayat tradition of Karnataka. The collection is notable not only for its first detailed depictions of the saints, but also for its diversity of stories, characters, and religious practices.
    • "He’s the first poet—this is the earliest record of the lives of this particular group of saints in the Kannada region who are devotees of Shiva." (09:16–09:40)
  • The podcast explores the rich tapestry of practices (e.g., carrying the ishta linga, burial customs, widow remarriage) that mark Lingayat uniqueness and the ongoing debates about their relationship to broader Hinduism.
    • "Their relation to Hinduism … is not simple. There is a contestation, an ongoing public debate … about whether Vira Shaivas Lingayats should be considered as a separate minor religion in India or be considered under big tent Hinduism." (11:59–12:34)
• Motif of Divine Decapitation
  • The famous motif of self-decapitation in several stories, both as a literary trope and a practice, situates Harihara’s narratives within broader Indic and local idioms.
    • "Decapitation, as you said, is a familiar … literary trope, maybe also a practice. … In the case of a Kantaramaya, it's a very obviously intense moment … pitted against a Jain competitor over the identity of a local temple." (06:25–07:39)

Translation Challenges and Choices

• The Ragale Meter and Register
  • Harihara innovated by using the local ragale meter. The translation had to grapple with rendering this repetitive, primarily narrative style while also preserving shifts in emotional and poetic register.
    • "We're translating from a language that's not frequently translated to English, and we're translating a style that is basically unknown or obscure for translations in English. So we really had to think hard about the translation practices. … Whenever we sensed there is a switch in the register … we marked it by switching to short lines of verse." (20:35–24:49)
• Accessibility versus Fidelity
  • Decisions included omitting diacritics for accessibility, alternating between prose and poetic rendering based on the original’s structure, and retaining original deity names with glosses instead of converting names to English epithets.
    • "We went with keeping the original, right, with keeping Kudara Sangamma, but then in a phrase, in a comma, adding the meaning Lord of the Meeting Rivers, so that the uninitiated will also be able to appreciate the meaning…" (28:48–30:29)
• Inherent Imperfection of Translation
  • Both scholars reflect on the impossibility of a perfect translation—balancing literalism with narrative flow and emotional resonance, and opening up the translation for critique from multiple perspectives.
    • "Translation is a work of imperfection, and we are serving two unyielding masters… I don’t think there is a perfect translation, and I don’t think there is a single translation. A translation is captured in its time." (27:20–28:15)

The Richness and Texture of Harihara’s Storytelling

• Diversity of Characters and Themes
  • The ragales showcase an array of protagonists from all social strata—potters, servants, Brahmins, women, and outcasts—offering a window into 12th-century life.
    • "We get people from the margins of society, like a potter or a servant … while also getting stories about Brahmins … a very rich texture of daily life in the markets, at the temples, … political exchanges between Brahmins and kings and Shaivas and Jains." (31:33–32:26)
• Descriptive not Prescriptive
  • The stories are “messy,” polyphonic, and not always internally cohesive, reflecting a dynamic and lived religious world rather than imposing a systematic theology.
    • "Disparate stories don't need to come up into one cohesive tradition. One story can describe one mode of devotional life, while another story can describe a different mode… without forcing them into a straight jacket of certain set of practices." (35:50–36:50)
• Hinduism as Ecosystem
  • Both speakers emphasize the complexity of Hinduism: it is best seen as an ecosystem or polyphonic jungle, rather than a monolith.
    • "…Hinduism, right? Ancient lived tradition. And I always tell my students … just walk with a flashlight into these dark rooms and enjoy what you’re singing and it’s fine." (37:49–38:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Challenges of Translation
  • "Translation is a work of imperfection, and we are serving two unyielding masters, like you said, on the one hand, the original, on the other hand, the target audience. … I don’t think there is a perfect translation, and I don’t think there is a single translation. A translation is captured in its time." — Gil Ben-Herut (27:20–28:15)
• On Local Color versus Universality
  • "I don't think we need to peel off the locality, the regionality out of story to make it compelling. … Fiddler on the Roof was an amazing success in Japan, right? … because Fiddler on the Roof is a story about family ties in the transition from tradition to modernity. And that is a universal theme." — Gil Ben-Herut (50:05–50:40)
• On Harihara’s Literary Innovation
  • "Harihara really marks a pivotal change in Kannada literary practices. And his nephew Raghavanka … composed in a single local meter … and the style of Ragavanka of Hariara's nephew really became the standard of the rest of the pre-modern period for kind of literature. So Harihara is really, on the one hand, a classical and an innovator." — Gil Ben-Herut (17:30–18:16)
• On Polyphony and Tension in Religious Traditions
  • "If this were a sort of more monolithic or cohesive view, then it would clearly be more curated … arguably. And the fact that we are seeing, you know, when you have a peephole into a world, the messiness means that you really have a peephole into a real world because the world is a messy place." — Raj Balkar (36:26–37:21)
  • "Comfort with tension, comfort with paradox, feel comfortable with tension. That is the nature. We're not talking about tradition with a founder, and we're talking about the messy beauty of a jungle." — Raj Balkar (39:49–40:10)

Excerpts from Harihara’s Ragales (Read Aloud by Gil Ben-Herut)

• Alama Prabhu and Kamalate: Erotic and Mystical Love (44:00–47:29)
  • "She looked on as he played music that moved everyone. Suddenly Allama turned and cast his eyes on her. … The desire filled pair forestalled the pleasures of lovemaking. Their hairs stood on end as they opened their eyes in trembling delight." (44:30–45:43)
  • This narrative—surprisingly erotic and emotionally charged—links the saint’s later spiritual intensity to human love and loss, revealing both narrative skill and doctrinal flexibility in Harihara's corpus.
• Religious Conflict and Social Inversion (54:00–56:56)
  • A Shaiva devotee, Bogana, subverts caste expectations, inverting accusations of untouchability onto rival Vaishnava Brahmins:
    • "Have I ever entertained in my home, followers of Vishnu? … Would I entertain untouchables who are oblivious of Shiva's greatness? I certainly did host a devotee of Shiva. But tell me, O King, how could that have been wrong?"

Literary, Social, and Religious Impact

• Bringing Kannada Literature to New Audiences

  • This is the first substantive translation into English of these ragales. As Dr. Balkar notes, without such work, neither generalist scholars nor engaged readers outside the Kannada and South Asian scholarly world could access the text in any meaningful or productive way.
    • "This could really serve as a platform for … something may strike me here that I may actually ask you … That would not be possible without a common language." (14:15–15:45)
  • The translation fills a major gap left since earlier works like A.K. Ramanujan’s Speaking of Shiva and gestures toward a "mini-renaissance" in Kannada studies.
    • "… there is, on the one hand, a lot of interest in Kannada literature, and on the other hand, there is this inaccessibility that needs to be addressed." (15:45–16:40)

• The Pedagogical Value and Intended Audience

  • The translation is designed to serve many audiences: scholars, students of religion and literature, Indian English-language readers, as well as general readers interested in comparative hagiography and devotionalism.
    • "We were very conscientious that we are creating a translation that is meant to be appreciated by multiple audiences … students of religious studies of other traditions beyond South Asia … and lastly, but not least, … the audience in India … wanting to get access to regional literature through English translations." (50:05–54:00)

Gil Ben-Herut’s Ongoing and Future Work

• Textual History of Vachanas
  • Dr. Ben-Herut is pursuing a new project tentatively titled A History of Speaking, tracing the evolution of the Vachana corpus from the earliest references in Harihara up to the present, supported by several fellowships (Fulbright Nehru, AIIS, NEH).
    • "So this project of mine right now is supported by the Fulbright Nehru Academic and Professional Excellence Award and the Senior Short Term Research Grant funded by the American Institute of Indian Studies and the National Endowment of the Humanities." (61:10–61:49)
• Continued Translation of Harihara’s Works
  • Together with Prof. Sundaram, he is preparing further translations of Harihara’s other compositions, signaling the abundance and accessibility of remarkable Kannada material for future scholars.

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic/Quote | Timestamp | |-------------|-----------| | Collaboration and Guru Bhakti | 02:00–02:20 | | Genesis of translation project | 03:39–05:25 | | Decapitation motif in stories | 06:25–07:39 | | Lingayat tradition, historical context | 09:16–12:34 | | Translation choices and approach | 20:35–24:49 | | Accessibility vs. fidelity in translation | 28:48–30:29 | | Diversity of narrative and tradition | 31:33–35:50 | | Messy, polyphonic Hinduism | 36:26–38:17 | | On the impossibility of a perfect translation | 27:20–28:15 | | Alama Prabhu & Kamalate story (reading) | 44:00–47:29 | | Religious conflict, subverting caste | 54:00–56:56 | | Universal appeal of regional narrative | 50:05–54:00 | | Ben-Herut’s next projects | 61:10–61:49 |

Conclusion

Stories of Shiva’s Saints opens a foundational classical text of Kannada literature and Indian religious history to English readers, sparking fresh engagement with the devotional, social, and poetic worlds of 12th-century Karnataka. The episode is an insightful dialogue on the promise and peril of translation, literary innovation, the complexity of South Asian religious history, and the ongoing relevance of these stories today.

(For details about the book, see show notes. For more on Dr. Ben-Herut’s work or to explore Kannada literature, listeners are encouraged to seek out regional language resources and keep an eye on future translations.)