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Gillian Adler and Paul Strohm, "Alle Thyng Hath Tyme: Time and Medieval Life" (Reaktion, 2023)
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- [00:02]
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of New Books Network. This is your host, Moteza Hajizadeh. Today I'm honored to be speaking with Dr. Gillian Adler about a recent book that she has published with Reaction Press. One of those wonderful looking books from medieval life.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Sorry, I have to interrupt you. I should have told you that my name is pronounced Jillian.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Oh, sorry, my bad. English is my second language.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
I'm sorry to make you start.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
No, no, no. Fine, I'll start again. Sorry.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Okay.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And by the way, you are still. You are still at the Sarah Lawrence College, right?
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
That's good.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Yes.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
All right, so start again. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of New Books Network. This is your host, Mote Zaharjizadeh. Today I'm honored to be speaking with Dr. Gillian Adler about a won book that she has recently published with Reaction Press. It's one of those wonderful looking books that come in medieval series with Reaction Press. The book is called All Things have Time and medieval life. Dr. Gillian Adler is assistant professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College in New York. She's also the author of Chaucer and the Ethics of Time which was published in 2022. And this book was co written by Dr. Paul Strom. But we have Dr. Gillian Adler today to speak with us about the Gillian, welcome to New Books Network.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Thank you so much.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Before we start talking about the book, can you just very briefly introduce yourself, tell us how you got interested in your field of studies and more importantly, how the idea of this book came to you?
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Sure. Well, thank you so much for that introduction. To build on what you've already said, I specialize in Medieval literature and particularly Middle English, as well as the history of time and temporality in the Middle ages. So my PhD dissertation at UCLA was focused on time in Chaucer's Dream Visions and Troy Le San Crusade. Reworking that dissertation helped me generate the book you mentioned, Chaucer and the Ethics of Time. And I'm also currently editing the Cultural History of Time in the Middle Ages with Bloomsbury Press. This particular book, All Thing Hath Time in Medieval Life, we have a Middle English title followed by the Modern English. It's a co authored volume as you mentioned. So it grew out of a collaboration with Paul Strom centered on our shared interest in the subject of time. When we began discussing the project, we were both mulling over moments in Chaucer's poetry that revealed the multiplicity of time, the sense of time as narrative and as rhetoric, time as a phenomenon that can be quantitatively measured, but also time as an interior sensation, something which is experienced and perceived. We ultimately wanted to dismantle the misconception that medieval people had some monolithic, naive view of time before the invention of the mechanical clock. Instead, we argue that medieval people lived within a fabric of time made of, you know, temporal threads and frameworks. I'm borrowing this metaphor of fabrics from some other time scholars, Merek Tam being one of them, but it really works. We explore how medieval people balanced the so called merchant's time of the clock with liturgical time and natural time, while also honoring interior time, again, that subjective experience of waiting or remembering or the spiritual rapture that can pull a person out of the present entirely. So our central question is, you know, were medieval people, did they feel themselves to be masters of time or were they mastered by it? And in the book we discuss the different ways of time telling before exploring literary narratives that imagine time fluidly and non linearly and similarly examples in medieval art that express time in non linear ways. We were both coming at this subject as literary scholars, literary historians, so we wanted to choose topics that reflected our sense that the medieval person possessed a very expansive temporal horizon and draw on different sources from different disciplines to express that.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Wonderful. And as you mentioned, I guess you kind of addressed. There are a lot of misconceptions, or, let's say, mysteries about medieval life and medieval people for those who are not really, for the uninitiated, let's say, and I found this concept quite interesting myself, time. I've written the whole book on time and medieval. And by the way, I'm really looking forward to reading your next week and hopefully be able to talk to you about it on your books network as well. Let me ask another question. In the book, you talk about multiple overlapping systems of time and how medieval people navigated that. I'm keen to know broadly what it was like and what can you tell us about that temporal experience that people had, medieval people had, and how it's similar or different to today's temporal experiences that people have. And I go to work myself early in the morning, and now, like I told before, I have a new son. So everything for me, the idea of time has changed for me. But I'm interested to know if there were similarities or differences and how medieval people navigated that.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Absolutely. That's a great question. And it gets to really sort of the core foundation of our book. It's how we start. The book is discussing the different systems of time and how they overlap. And I think, you know, to your point about today's temporal experiences, Paul, and I should mention, started writing this book during the COVID lockdown. So we really experienced an altered sense of daily life. And I think that did, you know, that did shape our perspectives on time from a more theoretical perspective. When it came to time, medieval people lived in a state of simultaneous awareness. So we often today feel pressured to follow the time of the mechanical clock or the digital clock. This is, you know, the dominant way of measuring time. But they navigated a more complex temporal landscape. They balanced a knowledge of natural and astronomical time through the agricultural rhythms or the movements of the stars. They balanced that with liturgical time, signaled by church bells and a calendar of devotion that was somewhat prescriptive. And then there was mechanical time, which really emerges and develops in the later Middle Ages. The clock eventually becomes the dominant tool for measuring time and governing our life. But our book explores how a medieval person, a single person, might have followed all three of these systems at once, and how cultural artifacts like medieval calendar pages or even certain astronomical clocks that are quite famous because they were installed in high places, in public places, how they reveal the interdisciplinary dependence of these systems. You know, the medieval ability to shift between time systems and to embrace linear and cyclical patterns of time can teach us quite a bit. First that we are, you know, following the clock. We are a bit trapped by the strictures of time. Right. Because we adhere to a singular standardized system. We could also push back against the modern commodification of time or the fragmentation of time by integrating slower rhythms, cyclical ones, non linear ones. Medieval people would have embraced again, you know, the seasonal rhythms, the spiritual rhythms. I think from the Middle Ages we could, from this sort of medieval time sense, we could rethink the meaning of efficiency.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Right.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Whether prioritizing qualitative experiences over quantitative measurement might help us become more useful in the end or just live better lives. I think one of our most compelling findings was that time could be measured by the intensity of conviction and not just duration. The medieval culture of time suggests that we might be able to reclaim a bit of agency in life by allowing and allowing our feelings or subjectivities or spiritual rhythms to define the structure of the day rather than to sort of fit our souls into a rigid, measured grid. But you know, I, I don't. I'm sure I'm someone hypocritical in, in saying all this. These are, these are all possibilities if we wanted to kind of harness the medieval sense of time as opposed to the, the contemporary one.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
No, I guess I feel that way myself as well. I mean, learning about all these things. But I can't. It's like you said, there are opportunities or possibilities and it gives us a different perspective to look at time and our everyday, especially nowadays that we all feel rushed and we are overwhelmed with books, news, data, information. I always feel like I'm left behind because I haven't been able to watch the movies I want to watch. And I have a list of them, like hundreds books, articles. And my computer is filled and I measure my life by the idea of time in my life, by times I spend on the train to go to work, when I'm at work, when I'm not at work, when I'm looking after the kid, when I'm spending time with my wife. And these are the qualitative things that some of them that I need to do. But on the other hand, I feel like I'm being left behind. So that's why sometimes watch a movie by the fast forward because I want to stick to that rhythm, that linear idea of time that I have ingrained in my brain.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Yes, I think the shift toward this linear, standardized view of time is probably also a consequence of how we. It's our values. This was what my prior book somewhat dealt with, was like the ethics of time. We prioritize commerce, industrialization, globalization, where efficiency is paramount, and predictability. So we have inherited a really fiscal emphasis on time, where we try to maximize quantifiable every quantifiable minute. But I think maybe we need to be reminded that time is also a precious gift to be used for more than productivity or kind of acquiring information and producing. I think the. The notion of productivity was probably a little bit more fluid in the Middle Ages.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Yeah, yeah. Can you tell us about the role of, again, and against another concept, people or misconception that people might have, is the role of religion. And it was prominent in medieval life. But let's talk about the role of religious or even natural rhythms. How did it shape their conception of time?
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Dr. Gillian Adler
No, that's a really good question, because we're talking a little bit about the clock, the shift to the clock. But the shift only really began around 1270, between 1270 and 1320, and after that, societies gradually became less agrarian, less tied to these daily liturgical rhythms. But these rhythms were at the core of medieval time consciousness. Liturgical time was. That was a qualitative time. So a moment of prayer was again, more likely measured by intensity rather than kind of a quantifiable time. Hours of prayer, there's a bit of a paradox because they were practical means of scheduling daily life, but they also directed the devotee toward eternity, right to the escape from time to the calendar. The medieval calendar, it was both linear and cyclical. So it created a different rhythm as well. It linked human life to salvation history. And so there was an interest in the return of feast days, this cyclical celebration of different saints and different moments in salvation history. But there was also an emphasis on the road from creation to the Last Judgment and the end of time. So, again, that sort of pluralized the conception of time. Natural rhythms also were important. They interlinked the microcosm of the human individual to the macrocosm of the universe. So even the rural worker, who was distant from the learned commentators of the church, from university men, they probably felt this connection between the themselves and the universe. In medieval manuscripts, it's quite. Well, it's common to see the labors of the months. So this refers to iconography that placed a farmer's seasonal work alongside the signs of the zodiac. It created a link between something like harvesting or sowing in particular months and what was going on in the heavenly spheres. So you had the mundane labor of the field connected to these eternal motions. That's really one of the most fascinating pieces of evidence that medieval people were balancing so many different ways of telling time and understanding themselves in relation to temporality and eternity as well.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And the idea. What about the idea of laborer? These people were farmers, or they had. They were craftsmen. How did they measure time? With the invention of mechanic clock, let's say, and the impact it had on their, let's say, work life. Working life.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
The famous medieval historian Jacques Lagoff came up with, with this idea of the merchant's time of the clock as really signaling a shift to mercantile life. And the clock in the world of labor allowed for the setting of precise work hours. There were fines for lateness that were introduced to ensure new working hours. It was impactful, particularly in towns. It's interesting because many of the earliest clocks actually come out of the church, and the church invested in clock development. People like clerics like Richard of Wallingford, who was born in the late 13th century. He was a brilliant mathematician and scientist, but also the abbot of St. Albans Abbey. And he focused on building a clock because the monastery needed orderly routines for prayer. But the clock shifts from the monastery wall to the city tower, and it became a real engine of commerce. So, you know, early clocks were faulty, but increasingly they became part of the familiar civic landscape. And this made the hour more publicly known. People measured time through other means. You know, as I've mentioned, that there was the calendar, the rhythms of the seasons and the stars where people could rely on a sundial or an astrolabe. Or astrolabes were actually used because they were very precise. They were used to set clocks at the beginning. There were also other clocks, simpler clocks like water clocks and hourglasses, graduated wax candles which burned down in equal intervals. And then, of course, the canonical hours. But I should stress that what the mechanical clock does is, is supplement this kind of variable or unequal hours model of time with an equal hours model. So we don't need the sun to observe clock time. And so whereas the variable hours refers to the length of daylight, which changes from season to season and month to month, and has incredible variability. Right when a rural worker might wake up is going to change based on when either dawn, the first sign of dawn, or at sunrise. People debated when the day started. This is going to change in the world of labor, when the clock mandates particular work hours. And that's really revolutionary for the commercial sphere.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Iman I think it's a relevant question to ask because, you know, we've been talking about the impact of religious and natural rhythms on time, labor, mechanical wise. I read somewhere and I I don't remember where it was, but I read somewhere that in one, in, in, in a country in Africa, I don't remember where exactly. The idea of time is completely different. They don't have the concept of spending time or wasting time because they tend to think of it differently. I always feel like I'm wasting my time apart from the facts, apart that I'm reading a book or watching a good film or doing podcasts, which is not most of my time. And I think that's a modern idea that is related to productivity being efficient spending, doing quality, quality things, or quantitatively speaking, ticking a box that I've completed this or that task. Did medieval people have that idea of wasting time? If they did, what does it reveal about? Or if they didn't, what does it reveal about that? Changing social values from modern times, from medieval times to present.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
This is so interesting because wasting time is a concept. I mean, going back, it has theological roots in Genesis. You know, the idea that in Genesis, labor after the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the garden is seen as an opportunity to regain closeness to God. And early Christian thinkers accordingly condemned idleness. So you do. You do see a concern with wasting time, with misusing time, misusing the life you've been given. There's a concern with sloth as a spiritual sin. Sloth is so Severe. You know, we don't think of it as being one of the worst sins. I think it might not seem so grievous when we say, oh, sloth is just exhaustion. But the problem is, in the spiritual context is that it's giving up on prayer and devotion to the life. You've been gifted. And I think that's a spiritual exhaustion that's very consequential. So if you look at Dante's Purgatorio, there are souls who purge the sin of sloth on Dante's mountain of repentance. And they have to repent by. By making haste as they pray to correct how they wasted time on earth. I think that. Right. So monastic founders like St. Benedict really emphasized time and punctuality, and punctuality was a virtue. But a new sense of wasting time, as you're alluding to, did develop with the shift toward valuing efficiency and industry. So it sort of shifts from, again, the monastic context to the economic one, and wasting time becomes an economic scandal. Time begins to mean economic profit. You know, the phrase time is money. It's a worldly problem now. So, you know, there are some manuscript illuminations where idleness is. Is portrayed as a laborer who sleeps beside his plow, right? He neglects his labor, time. So idleness is sort of personified within this context of work, of industry. The clock became the new benchmark against which time across society could be right or time use could be judged as productive or wasteful.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And I studied literature myself. I'm interested to know how these changing attitudes towards time were reflected in the literature of medieval period, because we tend to think of time as more or less a modern concept. But how was it reflected in the literature of that period?
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Literature, it becomes so important to our sense of medieval time perception and time measurement. Throughout our book, we look at everything from the temporalities of the Arthurian quest to the mystical sense of time in spiritual writings, such as Julian of Norwich's revelations of divine love. I mean, literature, regardless of whether it's medieval or post medieval, it can capture the interior experience of time that a clock cannot measure. So, you know, in a medieval poem, it might show how grief, the experience of grief, can stretch a moment, or how prayer or religious vision can seem again, to take one out of time and into an eternal. An eternal state. Artistically, we see time personified through virtues like temperance, who's often shown with a clock or an hourglass, as the COVID of our book shows. Right. It shows one of the earliest illustrations of temperance in Lorenzetti's Allegory of Good and Bad Government, which is a fresco at the Palazzo Pubblico and Siena. These allegories, like temperance and prudence, which were shown as sort of temporal concepts, the visualization of these allegories made the abstract concepts tangible. Another important one that comes up in medieval art, in iconography, is the famous wheel of fortune, which served as a paradigm. Sorry, which served as a paradigm of cyclical time. So, you know, this is where allegory becomes so important, I think, is allegory doesn't just describe time, it acts out time. It provides a roadmap for how to live within time. And often, you know, by personifying concepts of time, medieval artists and writers could encourage a more balanced and providential life and move us away from the sort of random events of the world.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And in modern times, we tend to think of our life cycle and connect time to our life cycle. For example, it's the spring of my life, summer of my life, and then towards when you're middle aged or later in your life, you tend to associate it with winter or, you know, the time is always there. That idea. How did medieval thinkers, as they connect that human life cycle to natural or cosmic rhythms, the temporal idea of change? Let's say.
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Dr. Gillian Adler
Medieval peoples saw medieval thinkers. I'm going to say thinkers because medieval thinkers, medieval writers, commentators, saw an important correspondence between the human self and the cosmos. Again, you know, I mentioned the microcosm and the macrocosm of the universe. There were allegorical schemes which we call the ages, the ages of man, which show this connection. An individual was believed to move through these ages of childhood, youth and old age. There were sort of phases and the world was similarly believed to be moving through ages. There was a universal chronology stretching from creation to the second Coming, which suggested that humanity was aging alongside an aging world. This leads, you know, to a very, a very complex sense of cosmic time. In the Middle Ages, this belief amplifies the sense that the world is in its final stage in its synecdude. You know, at the same time, medieval women probably received in these, in this ages scheme, a different treatment. Medieval schemes for women were often restrictive and linear. A woman was perceived to occupy virginity and then marriage and then widowhood. And yet our book also explores how women found creative escape from these roles. So some, you know, artisan women, widows took over their husband's businesses. For instance, the mystic Marjorie Kemp, you know, she, after having many children, she has this kind of spiritual reinitiation and demands chastity from her husband and begins a kind of life of pilgrimage. So women like these widows, they subverted prescriptive timelines and treated widowhood not as a conclusion, but a moment of again restarting their own temporal cycles. So cosmic these are, you know, maybe that one's a less cosmic connection, but I think it's really important to medieval life. You could also think about the cosmic connections as being written into the stars, right? Figures like Dante believed that the constellation of Juan's birth directly influenced character and destiny. So human time was never isolated from the heavenly rhythms.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And one final question, which I have more or less which we have touched upon, but it would be great if you could bring it all to an end with a comparison with modern times. The fast pace of life. And we are, like we said before, in a digitally driven world, time is also commodified. We talk about spending time efficiently or we talk about wasting time. How can the medieval perspective on time that you have explored in your book help us rethink our relationship with time? And what lessons can we draw from that medieval temporal systems to address current challenges we have in modern times as well?
- [31:28]
Dr. Gillian Adler
Well, I won't pretend to have all the answers to this, it's a major question, but I do. I would say that we've sort of flattened the medieval tapestry or fabric of time into that single thread of efficiency you just mentioned. And looking back, we might find in medieval culture, the medieval culture of time, some ways of grappling with the exhaustion of time today, temporal exhaustion. If we monetize every minute of life, we're going to suffer. So, you know, learning from this temporal multiplicity, we might try to allow subjective time, qualitative time, to exist a bit more fully alongside the clock. I'm not sure we can reject the tyranny of our schedules, but we could try to prioritize being and creative flow over duration. So embracing those, again, slower, non linear subjective temporalities. And of course, again, it's easy to say, not always easy to do under much pressure. I mean, this is something the mechanical plaque relentlessly discourages. You know, as I mentioned in the case of women who found ways of kind of subverting prescriptive timelines, you know, even perceived endpoints in life can be seen as moments of renewal rather than decline. So we can be overly reductive about life stages. And I think it's important to call that into question. One important facet of medieval life is the emphasis on community, which we could reclaim. We might reclaim shared rhythms to counter any loss of community that's been imposed by Digital schedules or AI, which have isolated us. I think that's a very timely conversation is the way that everyone is talking about how AI isolates us. In the medieval period, the chime of a bell or the canonical hours provided this shared public rhythm that pointed to a higher purpose than individual productivity. To heal, we have to prioritize communal rituals that make us step outside the logic of personal success. Right. And help us to focus on. On well being, on a collective well being. So it's, it's very interesting as someone who lives in New York City and you know, I wake up hearing traffic outside, everyone rushing around and like children running to school, everyone's rushing to work. People are, people are angry. And then you. And then you do sometimes hear the church bells or you hear like I. You hear some signs of public life that are much slower and yeah, it's a moment. Those are moments that do make you pause and slow down and kind of remind you of the world outside of yourself. Regarding something like climate, urgency. The medieval person lived also in constant dialogue with nature and, and I think had a sense that we're participants in a cosmic cycle and not masters of this linear progression. And so I guess my last point would be to readopt a sort of cyclical perspective of time that might counter the linear one or try to kind of balance both the linear and cyclical paradigms and see what happens. But this is a reminder for myself as well, of course.
- [35:26]
Moteza Hajizadeh
I think the keyword you just mentioned was that communal. And I totally agree with you. We have become too much isolated, atomized. And I've had that experience myself when I walk home. Sometimes when I walk home from work or I just go for a stroll in the city. I work in a city center, but I'm lucky because I work near a beautiful river, like a 10 minute walk and then I'm in a. It's kind of a bushwalk. But I rarely go there. But there are moments that I go there and I hear sounds natural, let's say sounds like that. That reminds me that. That disconnect me from that pace of life. But that's something I guess we need to try to discover more through Camilla activities that you just mentioned. I'd like to thank you for the time is time to speak with us on New Books Network about your book All Things have Time and Medieval Life, published by Reaction Press. It's a wonderful book. Like I said earlier, it's a part of those series of books on medieval literature and culture published by Reaction which are highly accessible. So I do strongly recommend it to our listeners to pick up the book and read it, because it's not only about medieval love. I think it has a lot of implications for our everyday life in 2025 or 2026 as well. Dr. Jillian Adler, thank you so much for speaking for taking the time to speak with us on your books at work.
- [36:46]
Dr. Gillian Adler
Thank you so much. Paul Strom and I are both very honored to have our book featured on your podcast, and we really enjoyed the conversation.
- [36:55]
Moteza Hajizadeh
Thank you. Foreign.
- [37:09]
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