Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Interview with Gonzalo Lizarralde, Author of "Unnatural Disasters: Why Most Responses to Risk and Climate Change Fail But Some Succeed" (Columbia UP, 2021) Host: Stentor Danielson
Date: January 17, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode centers on an interview with Gonzalo Lizarralde, professor of architecture and expert in disaster risk management, about his recent book "Unnatural Disasters." The conversation explores why most disaster responses and climate change initiatives fall short and what makes a minority of efforts successful. Lizarralde reflects on the limitations of popular academic theories, the gap between policy and real-world impact, and the crucial role of humility and local participation in effective disaster recovery.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background and Motivation for the Book

• [02:43] Lizarralde describes how growing up in Bogotá, Colombia, amidst disaster reconstruction, inspired his move into disaster risk research and his career in Montreal focusing on architecture, project management, and disaster studies.

2. Building on Naomi Klein’s 'Disaster Capitalism'

• [03:54] The book is partly a response to Klein’s "shock doctrine," which argues that disasters are exploited for advancing neoliberal agendas.
  • Lizarralde concurs with the critique but found that these frameworks didn’t explain all the failures he witnessed on the ground, especially those stemming from mistakes, ignorance, or poor communication rather than intentional exploitation.
  • Quote [05:36] (Lizarralde):
    "There were mistakes that were not necessarily related to this savage capitalism agenda. There were also misunderstandings, there were also overlooks."

3. Rethinking Vulnerability Theories

• [06:49] Many expect "no such thing as a natural disaster" (Ken Hewitt, Ben Wisner) to be foundational, but Lizarralde finds the vulnerability model incomplete.
  • Vulnerability theory (pressure and release model) remains valuable but doesn’t explain, for example, why disasters strike privileged communities not easily classified as vulnerable.
  • Quote [08:39] (Lizarralde):
    "Can we really claim that those wealthy citizens are vulnerable in the traditional way that the vulnerability theory will understand them? And here the answer becomes more puzzling."

4. Practitioner Insights: The Limitations of Good Intentions

• [11:01] First-hand experience with NGOs, local leaders, and governmental actors revealed that many professionals have positive intentions but lack appropriate skills and information.
  • Not all decision-makers are self-serving—there are cases of genuine goodwill coupled with insufficient expertise.
  • Quote [13:16] (Lizarralde):
    "Sometimes they have very open and transparent intentions of working for the good of people. But sometimes they don’t have the tools to do that."

5. Structure and Inertia in the Disaster Industry

• [15:17] Institutional inertia—large organizations and established practices—make change very difficult, even when individuals inside them recognize the problems.
  • The requisite skills for disaster recovery are often different from those used in routine architectural or planning practice.
  • Quote [17:40] (Lizarralde):
    "It's very important that we understand that having good intentions sometimes is not enough. We also have to develop certain skills and gain some knowledge in order to deal with vulnerable people."

6. Humility and Listening: A Path to Improvement

• [19:21] A book chapter titled "Humility" advances the idea that professionals must learn to listen rather than impose their ideas.
  • The failure to listen often leads to well-designed but inappropriate solutions left unused or abandoned.
  • Quote [20:01] (Lizarralde):
    "Perhaps we have to start listening more. ... We don’t have the right skills to listen to people, to try to understand their struggles, to decode the messages they’re trying to deliver, to echo their voices in a different way so we can influence other people."

7. The Grand Plan Problem

• [21:23] Grand master plans, especially in high-profile cases like post-2010 earthquake Haiti, draw attention and money but mostly fail to deliver lasting change.
  • Despite billions raised and plans for sustainable, resilient communities, very little was ever delivered on the ground. The money often stayed with foreign contractors or NGOs, bypassing affected communities and governments.
  • This illustrates the gap between rhetoric (e.g., "build back better") and actual impact.
  • Quote [23:47] (Lizarralde):
    "Funding agencies see disasters as an opportunity to touch donors and call the attention of international media ... so we produce band aid solutions that try to respond very quickly and use resources very quickly, but that ultimately have very little impact on the long term."

8. Sustainability, Resilience, Participation, Innovation: Buzzwords vs. Reality

• [27:27] Rhetoric around sustainability and resilience is often for donors or political image-building, disconnected from what communities actually need or want.
  • Example: The Clinton Foundation's "build back better" initiative in Haiti showcased all the buzzwords but achieved little real change.
  • Quote [28:41] (Lizarralde):
    "There was this rhetoric of sustainability as much as the result in this rhetoric of resilience or participation or innovation. ... But that narrative did not translate into more efficient action on the ground."
  • These empty narratives ultimately erode public trust in agencies and governments.

9. When Disaster Responses Succeed: Bottom-Up, Humble Approaches

• [31:07] Lizarralde highlights success stories like Cuban coastal villages, where communities facing climate-driven relocation organized bottom-up responses, offering alternatives to government plans and leveraging local knowledge and priorities.
  • Such cases contrast with top-down master plans and show the value of humility and listening in policymaking.
  • Quote [34:23] (Lizarralde):
    "Those are the type of bottom up solutions that I’m trying to reveal in 'Unnatural Disasters.' ... There is hope when we start listening, when we assume more humility towards citizens on the ground and we find solutions that can be scaled up, supported and eventually replicated at larger scale."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------|-------| | 05:36 | Lizarralde | "There were mistakes that were not necessarily related to this savage capitalism agenda. There were also misunderstandings, there were also overlooks." | | 08:39 | Lizarralde | "Can we really claim that those wealthy citizens are vulnerable in the traditional way that the vulnerability theory will understand them? And here the answer becomes more puzzling." | | 13:16 | Lizarralde | "Sometimes they have very open and transparent intentions of working for the good of people. But sometimes they don’t have the tools to do that." | | 17:40 | Lizarralde | "It's very important that we understand that having good intentions sometimes is not enough. We also have to develop certain skills and gain some knowledge in order to deal with vulnerable people." | | 20:01 | Lizarralde | "Perhaps we have to start listening more. ... We don’t have the right skills to listen to people, to try to understand their struggles, to decode the messages they’re trying to deliver, to echo their voices in a different way so we can influence other people." | | 23:47 | Lizarralde | "Funding agencies see disasters as an opportunity to touch donors and call the attention of international media ... so we produce band aid solutions that try to respond very quickly and use resources very quickly, but that ultimately have very little impact on the long term." | | 28:41 | Lizarralde | "There was this rhetoric of sustainability as much as the result in this rhetoric of resilience or participation or innovation. ... But that narrative did not translate into more efficient action on the ground." | | 34:23 | Lizarralde | "Those are the type of bottom up solutions that I’m trying to reveal in 'Unnatural Disasters.' ... There is hope when we start listening, when we assume more humility towards citizens on the ground and we find solutions that can be scaled up, supported and eventually replicated at larger scale." |

Segment Timestamps

• [02:43] – Lizarralde's background and start in disaster studies
• [03:54] – Introducing Klein’s shock doctrine and how Lizarralde builds on/critiques it
• [06:49] – Critique of vulnerability theory and its limitations
• [11:01] – Practitioner perspective; the complex realities behind disaster failures
• [15:17] – Institutional inertia and skill mismatches
• [19:21] – The case for humility and community listening
• [21:23] – The grand plan problem: Haiti’s post-earthquake master plans
• [27:27] – Buzzwords vs. reality: The limits of “sustainability,” “resilience,” etc.
• [31:07] – What works: Bottom-up Cuban communities and grassroots innovation
• [35:50] – The book’s accessible style and educational potential
• [40:53] – Upcoming work: "Artifacts of Disaster Risk Reduction"

Educational Value and Audience

• [36:51] Lizarralde aimed for a balance between academic insight and accessible writing for leaders, practitioners, graduate students, and advanced undergraduates.
  • Quote [38:37]:
    "The book is an attempt to reveal the realities on the ground and at the same time trying to inform those realities with theories and concepts when they are required, but trying to find this proper balance between empirical evidence on the ground and concepts and ideas that become rather abstract."

Upcoming Projects

• [40:53] Lizarralde is working on an online publication, "Artifacts of Disaster Risk Reduction," focusing on how local communities physically and socially transform their environments to cope with risk. This research draws on four years of case studies from Latin America and the Caribbean.

Conclusion

Lizarralde’s "Unnatural Disasters" critiques the limitations of dominant academic theories and donor-driven disaster policies, emphasizing the need for humility, listening, and bottom-up approaches. The book offers both accessible and theoretical perspectives, aiming to inform students, professionals, and policymakers alike. Lizarralde's analysis encourages a reexamination of what makes disaster recovery meaningful, challenging listeners to value the wisdom and agency of communities themselves.