Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Grace Kessler Overbeke, "First Lady of Laughs: The Forgotten Story of Jean Carroll" (NYU Press, 2024)

Host: Jane Semeka

Guest: Grace Kessler Overbeke

Date: December 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the fascinating and underappreciated life and legacy of Jean Carroll, the pioneering standup comedian, through the recent book "First Lady of Laughs," by Grace Kessler Overbeke. Overbeke, an academic specializing in comedy studies, joins host Jane Semeka to discuss Carroll's pivotal yet long-overlooked role in American comedy, her immigrant background, her impact on women in comedy, and the ongoing challenges of recognition for trailblazing women in male-dominated fields.

Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Who Was Jean Carroll?

[02:44]

• Carroll is described as “arguably the first woman to do standup comedy in the United States, and certainly the first Jewish woman to do standup comedy in the U.S.”
• Began performing at age 11 in vaudeville, pioneering standup before it even had a name.

2. Overbeke’s Interest in Carroll

[03:27]

• Overbeke was inspired by early exposure to vaudeville and the lack of visible women in histories of Jewish comedy.
• Discovery of Carroll came via a live show that showcased early Jewish women comedians—a pivotal moment (“…why is it that I'm writing my undergraduate thesis about women in Jewish comedies and this is a name that I haven't heard before…”).

3. Carroll’s Upbringing & Entry into Show Business

[07:16]

• Carroll’s family immigrated from Eastern Europe, led an itinerant and impoverished life in New England and New York.
• Her early drive was economic: “It was always very much driven by money. She felt like if she could make enough money, then she could get father out of the house…” [11:43]
• Started as a child performer, winning dubious talent shows, and transitioned from dramatic monologues to comedic acts after embracing the audience’s laughter.

4. Breadwinner and Feminist Themes

[12:09]

• Carroll’s insistence on financial independence was lifelong: “Her financial independence was deeply important to her. And she just felt like that's how she could protect herself and how she could protect the people that she loved…”
• Her daughter later remarked, “she was a feminist before there was a name.”
• Example of her feminist stance: deliberately choosing work over the typical roles expected of women.

5. Marriage, Professional Collaboration, and Writing

[12:42]

• Carroll’s husband, Buddy Howe, was first a performance partner, then became her manager, recognizing her as the stronger writer and performer.
• Overbeke emphasizes Carroll’s underacknowledged skill as a comedy writer: “...the clickety clack of the typewriter going and going and going for hours...” [14:52]
• Despite being an accomplished writer, Carroll was excluded from the writing team of her own TV show.

6. Erase from Public Memory & Gender Bias in Comedy History

[16:18], [18:46]

• Overbeke argues Carroll is forgotten due to a combination of entertainment’s short memory and gender bias in history-writing:
  • “Culturally and especially in terms of the entertainment industry, memory is not long. We're sort of goldfish. And especially when it comes to women in any kind of unconventional profession... there’s a frustrating tendency that for every successful woman, people get up in arms and act like this is some kind of anomaly, rather than understanding that... this is a long standing lineage.”
  • Histories of standup and comedy often omit women’s contributions.

7. The Friars Club Tribute & Challenges for Women in Comedy

[19:16], [21:15]

• Carroll was honored at the (then all-male) Friars Club late in life—an irony since she wasn’t allowed membership during her career.
• The episode discusses the sexism of the entertainment industry, including harassment and joke theft:
  • “She talks about men stealing her jokes... She was always very insistent... ‘I'm not against men. I'm not at war with men. Because it has to be... you will be all alone in that whole business.’” [21:56]

8. Glamour and Comic Persona—Subverting Stereotypes

[25:13], [25:41]

• Carroll’s glamorous persona was both an asset and a challenge. Critics obsessed over her appearance, reinforcing the “funny or pretty” dichotomy.
• She broke conventions by being “self confident and... glamorous,” refusing to make her ethnicity or appearance the punchline.

9. Jewish Identity in Carroll’s Comedy

[28:39]

• Carroll’s humor was “double coded”—subtly referencing her Jewish heritage through syntax and phrasing (“This he likes”), resonating as an in-joke to those familiar with Yiddish while remaining accessible to general audiences.

10. Favorite Jean Carroll Jokes

[30:31]

• Overbeke’s current favorite:
  • “Oh, it was one of those love triangles. He and I were both in love with him.”
• Semeka adds:
  • “I love this woman's dress. It was really low cut and really high cut. It was a belt.”

11. Biographical Research & Family Legacy

[31:17]

• Overbeke accessed Carroll’s scrapbook, preserved by her granddaughters, which provided a personal window into Carroll’s life and career.
• The emotional connection to the biographical subject:
  • “I've been working on this for the better part of 20 years... I spend so much time thinking about how to best carry out a legacy of someone that I've never actually met, but who has shaped my life and who I really care about and love.” [32:51]

12. Retirement and Prioritizing Family

[35:04], [35:16]

• Carroll retired from entertainment to care for her ill mother, sister, and daughter. This rarity—in an industry favoring ceaseless devotion—contributed to her subsequent obscurity.
• Overbeke suggests: “...the industry is not kind to people who don't make it their first and only priority.”

13. Contemporary Resonances & Legacy in Popular Culture

[39:18], [39:51]

• Recent shows like The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and Hacks echo Carroll’s story.
• Rachel Brosnahan studied Carroll's performances to shape Midge Maisel, demonstrating Carroll’s enduring influence.
• Overbeke dreams of a documentary or feature film about Carroll.

14. Influence on Later Comedians

[43:44]

• Joy Behar said at the Friars Club tribute:
  • “Jean Carroll really is the mother of us all.”
• Lily Tomlin grew up watching Carroll, imitating her with childhood friends. Carroll’s confidence and refusal to self-deprecate provided a model for women in comedy and beyond.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Carroll’s Place in History:
  • “She became a stand up comedian before there was even a word for stand up comedian. So she's really kind of a pioneer of stand up comedy.” —Grace Kessler Overbeke [02:44]
• On Recognition and Erasure:
  • “For every successful woman, people get up in arms and act like this is some kind of anomaly, rather than understanding that... this is a long standing lineage.” —Overbeke [16:22]
• On Feminism:
  • “Her financial independence was deeply important to her... that’s why her daughter says she was a feminist before there was a name.” —Overbeke [12:09]
• On Double-Coded Humor:
  • “The way that she would say ‘this he likes’... people who heard it who were Yiddish speakers [would recognize it]... It’s a really, really subtle sort of signal, like, I am one of you.” —Overbeke [28:53]
• On Carroll’s Influence:
  • “Jean Carroll really is the mother of us all.” —Joy Behar, as quoted by Overbeke [43:44]

Episode Structure with Timestamps

• Jean Carroll’s Biography: [02:44 – 07:09]
• Motivation and Early Career: [07:16 – 09:20]
• Writing and Professional Partnerships: [12:42 – 14:52]
• Legacy, Erasure, and Gender Bias: [16:18 – 18:53]
• Friars Club, Sexism in Comedy: [19:16 – 21:56]
• Glamour as Comic Persona/Stereotypes: [25:13 – 27:46]
• Jewish Identity and Style: [28:39 – 30:18]
• Favorite Jokes: [30:31 – 31:07]
• Research and Family Collaboration: [31:17 – 34:41]
• Retirement and Family Priorities: [35:04 – 38:00]
• Contemporary Echoes and Media: [39:18 – 42:39]
• Carroll’s Living Legacy: [43:44 – 45:01]

Conclusion

Grace Kessler Overbeke’s work shines a spotlight on Jean Carroll’s vital, if too-long overlooked, legacy as a pathbreaking woman in comedy—one whose artistry, resilience, and humor helped pave the way for generations of women in entertainment and beyond. Through archival research, family interviews, and expert analysis, Overbeke restores Carroll’s rightful place as a foundational figure in American standup and a cultural icon whose wit and independence remain relevant.