← New Books Network
New Books Network
Gregory S. Wilson, "Poison Powder: The Kepone Disaster in Virginia and Its Legacy" (U Georgia Press, 2023)
01:09:48
Loading summary
Transcript108 lines
- [00:01]
Commercial Narrator
When it comes to gifting, everyone on your list deserves something special. Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts so you don't have to. That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend that Italian leather bag, your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands, and your nephews the coolest new toys. Go ahead. A price is this good, you can grab something for yourself too. Marshalls we get the deals. You gift the good stuff. Shop now@marshalls.com or find a store near you.
- [00:32]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 copilot Disney wants to know, Are you ready?
- [01:03]
Matthew Powell
Yes.
- [01:04]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
For Marvel Studios the New Avengers, now streaming on Disney.
- [01:09]
Matthew Powell
Let's do this.
- [01:10]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
One of the best Marvel movies of all time is now streaming on Disney.
- [01:14]
Commercial Narrator
Hey, you weren't listening to me.
- [01:16]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
I said Thunderbolts the New Avengers is now streaming on Disney.
- [01:21]
Commercial Narrator
Meet the New Avengers.
- [01:23]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
That's cool though. Marvel Studios Thunderbolts the New Avengers, rated PG13, now streaming on you guessed it, Disney.
- [01:31]
New Books Network Host
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:36]
Matthew Powell
Okay, hello everyone, and welcome back to New Books in History, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. My name is Matthew Powell. Industrial chemicals are all around us. They're critical to many aspects of our modern lives. Still, over the years, many of these chemicals have been identified as harmful to humans and the environment. Lawsuits over consumer pesticides and ongoing fears about forever chemicals show how our relationships with these compounds has been and continues to be tenuous. This tension between environmental and human safety and economic development remains an ongoing debate in our society. Today, I'll be talking with Gregory Wilson about his 2023 book, Poison the Capone Disaster in Virginia and Its Legacy, published by the University of Georgia Press as part of their series Environmental History in the American South. The town of Hopewell, Virginia, was known as the chemical capital of the south due to the large role that chemical manufacturing played in the local economy. When in 1975, workers exposed to the pesticide Qui Pone began to develop serious health issues. The resulting investigation shook the town. Despite the government eventually regulating the substance, the effects of this chemical lingered in the local environment and in the bodies of these workers exported Globally, the damages spread well beyond the small town, impacting workers across the globe. I'm excited to introduce my guest today, Dr. Gregory Wilson. He is a distinguished professor of history at the University of Akron in Akron, Ohio. His research focuses on the United States history, with a focus on public history, political economy, environmental history, and Ohio history. Dr. Wilson, welcome to the show.
- [03:31]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [03:34]
Matthew Powell
Well, thank you for agreeing to come on here and talk about your book. I really enjoyed it.
- [03:40]
Now, just at the start, I'd like to ask about your personal background. In the book. You mentioned that your family moved to this area of Virginia when you were young. You paint a very intimate portrait of the James river, its ecology, its history. From both your upbringing there and the oral histories, it's clear to me that you're familiar with the area and its community. Could you talk about your relationship with the region and how that led you to writing this book?
- [04:12]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, sure. So, as you mentioned, I moved to the area when I was nine. So when I. And I remember when I moved there, just hearing about and seeing reports about this. This poison called Keone that had been in the river and was affecting fishing. And as a kid, you know, I didn't really know a whole lot more about it than that, but it was obvious that it was a big story and a big deal. And it became, I guess, kind of clear to me, whether, you know, explicitly or. Or implicitly or subconsciously maybe, that the water, the river, were really vital and important parts, not just for the economy, but for the culture, for the life. That region, that peninsula area of Virginia was really tied to the water in really important and historical ways. And then, of course, years later, I moved out. I'm living in Ohio, and I'm beginning to get involved in studying and being interested in environmental history. And that that memory from my childhood about keepone was still there. And I started to look around and do research and say, oh, you know, it's been so many years. Clearly, you know, there has to be a big book about this. Well, it turns out there wasn't. There were studies about it. Scientific, some legal studies, but no, like, recent sort of thorough history about the event and its history and its impact. So I started to, you know, get interested. And then things opened up for me and I was able to start doing the research on it. And that led me to eventually get into writing and. And getting the book done.
- [05:59]
Matthew Powell
Did you have any personal experience, experiences on the. The James river when you were young? Did you ever, you and your family ever use it for recreation or anything like that.
- [06:11]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, I mean, you know, growing up as a kid, you know, we, you know, we would fish a lot. Right. So obviously with keep one in the river that becomes a big as, you know, lots of people fish, right. They have, you know, if they have a boat or they just go to the dock or the pier, but you know, we would go to, you know, the ocean, which is not too far away from where we were down in Virginia Beach. So yeah, I think the water, you know, became part of your life. Right. For a lot of people. And we, we didn't live too far from the river itself, so, you know, we would go and, and you know, walk along it or, or like I said, go fishing. So. Yeah, it was always a part of, of, you know, what you did kind of on a day to day basis almost. Yeah.
- [06:55]
Matthew Powell
When you and your family were fishing, was the keep on something that you thought about or worried about or was this something that at this point you guys thought was, was gone? What, what time period do you remember?
- [07:07]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, I mean this, this would have been for me would have been. Well, I, gosh, I, I moved there pretty much right in the middle of it. So this would have been 1976. So right as the, the legal cases were all coming forward and there was lots of investigations.
- [07:22]
Matthew Powell
So.
- [07:23]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
So I think it was about, you know, it was definitely talking about, you know, oh, you shouldn't eat the fish. But you know, I can't, I can't remember whether, you know, my older brothers, you know, and parents thought it was really serious or they didn't think much of it. You know, I don't know for sure which, which way we went on that. I don't, you know, I don't. We certainly as a family, we didn't like eat a lot of fish out of the river, but there were lots of people who did. It was more just kind of recreational sort of fun type stuff for us, you know, catch and release, you know, type thing, as a said. But there was definitely a lot of people around us, you know, who went out in the river, fished a lot, you know, and relied on it, you might say, in a much more extensive way than certainly we did.
- [08:06]
Matthew Powell
Yeah, I figured you have, you can, you can catch it, but as long as you don't eat it, that's, it's not as much of a worry for you.
- [08:13]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Right.
- [08:14]
Matthew Powell
There's naturally a lot of nature in this book. In your early chapters, you provide a thorough sketch of the James river and its ecosystem and the surrounding area. The river Here is a, is a primary actor throughout the book. I especially appreciated the sections describing the different insects that these pesticides are designed to eliminate for an environmental historian. Like, how can we approach biology, a science and show how it interacts with history?
- [08:46]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's a good question. So there's probably several ways. I think one way to think about it might be that inside the science itself, the so called hard sciences, if you will, historical explanations are part of that as much as it's relied on empirical investigations, recreating experiments in labs, things of that sort of history and historical explanations are part of it. Certainly in biology we can think of evolution, natural selection as embedded, as a critical part of biology itself. So I think historical thinking is not the exclusive domain of the humanities.
- [09:34]
It overlaps and intersects a lot, I think, with science and science overlaps with what we do in the humanities. So I think there's a connection and an affinity there, just in a general sense. And I think for, you know, for me, the, the way I looked at it was that way, but I also was looking at data or trying to find data. In other words, how, how did scientists, you know, think about what Keone was or what pesticides were generally? What kind of data did they gather? What kind of tests did they conduct as a way to kind of understand the, if you can, I'll use the word evolution, right. Of their thinking, pun intended there, the evolution of their thinking about this particular pesticide, but just pesticides in general. But also I wanted to understand.
- [10:25]
What was known and unknown about it in that time period. Right. In the, let's say, 1960s and 70s. So what were the assumptions they were making? How were they considering all this? So historicizing, if you will, the practice of science. And that to me was a way for me to understand what was going on then so I could make sense of that world in some way. And so I think, you know, just generally. Right. I mean, how, how we've interacted with our world in the past, whether it's human or non human, has, you know, important lessons. Right. And information for us to help us understand how we can, you know, interact today, what we can do moving forward. So I think there's, there's a lot of connections there, I would say. And I think in, in environmental history. Right. In particular, I think there's, there's definitely. Right. A lot of, of overlap. Right. And not just with biology. Right. But, you know, geology, for example. Right. You know, many other sciences that we can think of where those two disciplines which might normally not talk to Each other actually have, I think, have a lot to say to each other, but.
- [11:39]
Matthew Powell
I would certainly agree. Something that I've been struggling with personally is dealing with what you mentioned is data and biological data, statistical data like that. And I'm curious as to. For a lot of environmental historians, this is something where there's a lot of. A lot of it available, but we don't know how to do with it. So I'm curious as to how you grappled with the data aspect.
- [12:04]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's a good question. Right. I guess thinking back on kind of the research process and how I came to it, I think for me, I wanted to first understand, if I could, just the ecology of the river itself a little bit. So, in other words, what happens in the river relative to, you know, the water, sediments, but also living creatures. Right. The marine life in the river. So that led me to try to read a lot of scientific reports and studies about those elements to try to make sense of them. And then when it comes down to toxins that, you know, that can get complicated because you start talking about, you know, tests. Right. And lab results and all of those different things. So just trying to kind of understand the language of it, I think, is what I try to do. And I'm not saying I fully figured it all out, but I. But I think I had enough, right. To kind of make sense of what was happening there. And so, you know, I think interpreting that is important. And then just, you know, you can certainly consult with. Right. And talk to other scientists to help you understand things, which I did. If saw something, I said, what does this mean? Exactly? And. And so having those types of conversations helped me to learn. And that's part of what I think, you know, a lot of writing is, is, you know, you're. You're learning, right. And you're kind of trying to tell other people, this is what I learned about this subject. And so, yeah, for the science part, not. I'm not a scientist, right. I'm. I wasn't trained as one, so I kind of had to really learn that language, which, you know, can be dense at times, but I think with looking at it, talking about it and reading other histories and other reports that use it, you can kind of begin to understand that world a little better.
- [14:07]
Matthew Powell
I think that you do a really great job in this book kind of synthesizing those complex scientific facts.
- [14:16]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
All right, well, I appreciate that. I'm glad it made sense to you as a reader.
- [14:21]
Matthew Powell
Absolutely, it did. And, you know, I. I'm glad that you were Able to take the time and read through all those scientific journals and consult. And I'm glad to hear that you got help from your colleagues who are more scientifically inclined to. I think that makes the book incredibly strong.
- [14:39]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, I think one of the things about, you know, the. I guess a. A benefit of sorts maybe of doing more recent history and something that's. That's been studied. Right. A lot of. There's been a lot of attention paid to toxins in the James River, Qui Pone and others. So there's a lot of current work. Right. That's being done. And so one of the. One of the people I interviewed was one of the scientists who was. Has been involved in studies in the past and has done some recent work. So part oral history, but also part lesson. Right. So when they're writing about this, what do they mean? How do you. How do you understand that now and how do you think about it? So I think the benefit of doing the oral history was not just to kind of.
- [15:29]
Connect with narrators, but also to learn from them as well. To kind of walk that line between narrator. Right. And understanding what they're saying and what they're not saying and kind of interpreting them, but also learning from them Right at the same time. So, yeah, it was a very engaging and interesting experience to go through all of those different aspects of sources that I used.
- [15:56]
Matthew Powell
Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like an amazing research process.
- [16:02]
Moving on to kind of the Qui Pone disaster and the controversy surrounding it? Looking at the larger history of chemical production in the United States, the state and federal government responded to kipone quite quickly compared with a lot of other cases. While you note numerous areas where after learning of the danger, too little was done too late, Ki Pon was dealt with quickly compared with many other instances of harmful pollution. Why do you think that was? Why did the authorities deal with the kiphone disaster in a matter of years rather than decades, as we see with other examples like the now infamous DuPont plant in Parker. Parkersburg, West Virginia.
- [16:47]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's. That's a really good question. And. Yeah, so let me. I'll try to answer it this way. I think as I talk about in the book, the. The reaction, I guess you could say yes, is relatively swift. Right. But it wasn't immediately that way. So. And it had to do with a lot of different reasons. So, for example, there were several agencies in Virginia. The State Water Control Board, for example, the Air Pollution Control Board also, as well as what was the Department of Industrial Hygiene, which dealt with worker safety inside factories. All Three of those agencies had some involvement with. In connection to the. The small company that was making ki Poem, which was called Life Science Products. Now Life Science Products was under contract with the much larger company in Allied, Allied Chemical in Hopewell. And Allied was an international corporation. So all of those agencies had some connection with and actually had. Had at times actually been in the plan as this keep home was being made. And so they got to see the conditions inside which were, you know, keep on. When it's dried is a very fine powder, white, kind of light brown. And they saw the dust in there and all of these things. So, so there were moments and I talk about them, kind of try to take, take us through chronologically when regulators saw what was happening, but they let it go. They didn't do anything. So it's not. I don't think it's a simple story of oh, you know, they found it and they acted. That was the end of didn't. It kind of evolved, I guess. So for several years or several months, I should say, regulators allowed Life Science to keep producing, keep home. The waste kept coming into the water. It was, you know, dusty inside the factory. But it was only when the health department, Virginia, Virginia's health department that inspected the plant and actually went and inspected the plant, sorry. And then also went and met with workers. Right. And conducted medical exams of workers. When they finally did that, that's when the plant was closed after that, as I talk about. So it took a little while. Now, the good news, as you said, is it was over the span of months that this happened. Right. It wasn't years. Life Science started production in 1970 and they closed in July of 1975. So it was, you know, year and a half roughly. So, yeah, it did. It did happen, you know, quicker than maybe, as you say, some other cases. Right. That we know about. But it wasn't, it wasn't an easy.
- [19:49]
Regulation. Right. That way it took. It took at least until the health department came in to really do something. And then once the health department.
- [19:59]
Closed the factory down, they began. That's when the news stories began to come out in local and national newspapers. And at that point, that's when the larger environmental contamination became a big story. In other words, the worker story was the beginning part, but that didn't get as much play, as much attention as did the story of a contaminated river. And that's when the federal government really began to step in, I think more aggressively was at that moment and kind.
- [20:34]
Matthew Powell
Of just starting with the, like the workers, I mean, at the at the core of your book is this tension between the environment and the economy. I mean, you cite City Manager Clint Strong as saying people used to dismiss worries over odors in the environment by saying what you're smelling is money when they would smell these terrible smelling chemical factories wafting throughout town. So how do you see Hopewell as understanding this trade off between jobs and environmental quality? And who do you see making these rationalizations?
- [21:08]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's good. I mean, we, you know, we see that now and we've seen it, you know, before Hopewell. We see it currently. Right. There's always these places, like, you know, the Louisiana Toxic Corridor, right. Where there's oil refineries and chemical production. You know, all of these, these areas, what some scholars call sacrifice cells. Right. That's a term you'll hear. So it is that rationalization. It's a trade off. Sometimes people don't have choices, right, about where they live and what kind of work they can do.
- [21:40]
So I think if you think about going back to kind of the Key Pone story right, in the 1970s here, one of the things to remember, kind of take, I guess, zoom out a little bit, right. Is that pesticides were just one of many aspects of the chemical industry. And the chemical industry was growing and expanding and becoming more and more influential and integrated into the post World War II consumer society. Right. Things. Plastics, you know, for example. Right. But many, many other products, pesticides were just part of that. So chemicals were part and parcel, you might say, of the post war consumer world. And of course, the environmental movement then began to draw attention to that. Right. Rachel Carson's book is probably the most famous example of that. But there were others and other less famous ones Right. On local places, et cetera. So I think part of it is that Hopewell was just one city among many places that had built up their economy, their identity by chemicals. You mentioned, I think at the beginning that the slogan for Hopewell was the chemical capital of the south. And that was on a sign outside of town when you drove in. But in some of their promotional materials, they even went further. They said, we're the chemical capital of the world and come here, open a business here. All of that. So it was part of the identity that Hopewell had become this industrial chemical city. And I think there was just a lot of acceptance of that and explicit or implicit the trust.
- [23:27]
Of these businesses and what they were doing, that it was productive, it was good money, it was important work. And we know the chemical industry certainly advertised how important and safe it was. To the world. So I think there was just this kind of working assumption that this is what we do and we're proud of it. But only I think later, you know, as we get into the Keypone era, did those assumptions right and that trust begin to change and begin to be questioned. So, but that said, right, even after, even during, I guess, and even after Keypone, you know, there's a lot of people in Hopewell who still, you know, think that the keep hone case was overblown, right? It was much ado about nothing. You know, this is who we are. And you know, they, they acknowledge, yes, it's safer now. The river's cleaner and that's all good, but we can still keep making chemicals, right? We can still keep doing what we do, but now we can do it safer. I think that to me is kind of where maybe you might say that the main sort of attitude is at least, you know, based on my experience, you know, being there and interviewing people.
- [24:41]
New Books Network Host
The holidays have a way of sneaking up on you. And I can tell you they snuck up on me. This year I have people coming and I need to buy those people gifts. Or as I say, I just didn't have everything I need. So what I did is I went to Wayfair. From bedding to linens to decor for every room in the house, Wayfair is your one stop shop. Last minute guest prep. Wayfair has you covered. You can refresh bedding and throw pillows and accent chairs for way less. That's what I did. Pretty much all the bedding in my house is threadbare, so I decided to replace it. I went to Wayfair and I ordered some new sheets and pillowcases and I got a comforter, which was really cool. I ordered it, the price was great, the shipping was free. It arrived and now I am ready for the hordes to descend upon me. And it's not just bedding, of course. You can get linens and towels and things for the kids room, kitchen essentials, things for your living room. And of course they have holiday gifts. So get your last minute hosting essentials gifts for all your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [25:52]
Commercial Narrator
Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata Your holiday cocktails just got sweeter. Tap or click the banner for more drink response. Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaquee, Wisconsin. All rights reserved.
- [26:23]
This message may be shocking to many millennials. If you are one, you might want to sit down. Right now. Loads of people are searching the following on Depop. Low rise jeans, Holter tops, velour tracksuit, puka shell necklace, disc belt. You likely placed these in the dark of your closet in 2004, never to be seen again. But if you can find it in yourself to dust them off, there are a lot of people who will give you money for them. Sell on Depop where taste recognizes taste.
- [26:53]
Matthew Powell
And you mentioned that there was this like trust that a lot of people had in these companies. But then during the Ki Pone fiasco we see a lot of workers suing Allied and Life Sciences. And so we see a clear example here of them standing up to ecological and personal dangers. But you also mentioned that there's some other people who are willing to more staunchly defend Allied and Life Sciences for their production of kipun. And I was curious as to if you notice any patterns as to who was complaining, who was willing to do those lawsuits versus who is willing to to this day defend it. Maybe a lot of my research and a lot of things I've read, it's often I found like more like the workers are more readily to defend their employers, whereas perhaps maybe the bank teller middle class people that in the same town are the first ones to complain about environmental danger. So I was curious if you saw those kinds of patterns in your research.
- [28:02]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's interesting what you're saying there. Yeah, I think thinking about going back to that moment.
- [28:14]
Well, let me back it up a little bit more. During production at Life Science a lot of the workers developed what they call the coupone shakes because had been ingesting this keone while they were making it. So they had shakes, they had headaches, you know, other health issues. But it was. So it was known among the workers, right. That if you come work here, this is what's going to happen and you know, you just deal with it or you can quit. And a lot of people did quit. So. And I think once though that the health department came in, once it got shut down, then you know, medical authorities, you know, other scientists began to talk more about keep home, study it and the health effects started to become clearer. Right. Long, short and long term. You know, then, then the workers began to push back and challenge life science and as you mentioned, you know, be part of the lawsuits against them. But. So there was a large group of workers that did do that, but not all of them did. Some didn't join in. There may have been some that had no effects. Right. They worked there and they were fine or it was minimal and they just chose not to join. There may have been some who just thought that they shouldn't, that this was overblown. Certainly among the workers, though, I think most were willing to jump in and join those lawsuits. Right. Because they were worried as, again, as, as more knowledge about keepone came out. They were, they were more concerned about the health effects than they might have been, you know, months ago when they started working there. But I think, you know, outside of the workers, I think is kind of the opposite of what you were saying is where maybe there was less, less support for the workers to sue. Right? It was, you know, they're, they're, they're making something out of nothing. You know, the effects aren't that bad. You know, they're just doing it, it to get money from Allied, right. Who's a big corporation. That type of attitude that was, I think, common as well back then, and I think still even today. You know, I did a couple of interviews in, in Hopewell, and there was definitely that sense from some of those people that, that, you know, it was a lot of attention over something that maybe wasn't that damaging. Right. Or, or that the workers got better. So the lawsuits were kind of frivolous. There was certainly that attitude then, and I think it was still there among some people that, that I talked to. So, yeah, so it was definitely a divided sensibility. Right.
- [31:08]
Again, I didn't get to interview as many workers as I would have liked, partly just because finding them was difficult. They moved off. They're older, so they may have, may have died. So I did interview some, but if I think if I had done more, I might have been better able to tell you, like, okay, you know, out of the hundred and so some odd workers that were there, you know, 75 of them were, you know, angry, right. And were upset and, you know, 25 were like, no, this is just, just part of what we do. You know, I don't have the, the, the, the, the data to that level. I wish I did so. But there's, but about a definite split and division, you know, within, within the city, certainly over, over what happened.
- [31:58]
Matthew Powell
But that in a way it makes total sense that the workers in this scenario would be, for the most part, at the front of pushing back because it wasn't merely damage to the environment or that the towns smelled badly. It was that they were having these intense.
- [32:19]
Health problems and that affected not only their. Their health, but also their ability to work and their livelihood and put their future at risk.
- [32:28]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, absolutely.
- [32:29]
Matthew Powell
Yeah. It would have been terrifying to. To be on, to be a worker at Life Sciences and to have this happen. I mean, you mentioned some people working there for only a few months and they start getting severely sick. And I can imagine for them and their families, that would have been. Been a terrifying experience.
- [32:50]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, There's. There's big parts of the book talk about that it wasn't. And you mentioned it's not just the workers. And again, the workers were all men, Right. Who were there inside the plant, but it was also their wives and their kids. You know, they were worried that there could be ramifications. Right. Beyond just themselves. So there was a lot of fear about it. Again, a trust that had been broken, and now we're not sure, and we're afraid of our. Not just our health, but our, you know, our. Our spouses, our kids, what might happen to them. So, yeah, that. That played a big role, I think, in a lot of the story was that fear and uncertainty about what. What it was and what might happen. Yeah.
- [33:33]
Matthew Powell
And you mentioned it goes beyond the workers in terms of health, the work in terms of health fears. And that's especially true when we think about the broader environmental impacts of the Kipon disaster. Now, in chapter six, you use this idea of an environmental management state to describe the government's management of the James and its seafood industries after the Quipon disaster blew up. In your opinion, first, how would you define the environmental management state? And in your opinion, what is its legacy? Was it a failure that went too far and caused a backlash, or did it not go far in enough?
- [34:16]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I think that phrase comes out of the work of Adam Rome especially, and others have kind of taken up from that. The idea is, if we think about the national security state, Right. That come out of World War II and the Cold War, it's kind of a way to think about the regulatory system that developed, mainly thinking about it at the federal level. Right. You know, new laws, new regulations associated with, you know, the 1960s and especially the 1970s. So. And then. But that management state was also happening at the state level. Right. So places like Virginia. Right. But, you know, California, New York, et cetera. So I think it's just that of that evolution, right, of a government apparatus, right, to monitor, regulate and report on environmental issues. And that evolved especially, as I say, strongly in the 60s and 70s. So, so what I was seeing was kind of how that was working in this case study, right, of Ki Poon in the James river in Virginia. How was the federal management state? How did it understand it, right. How did it deal with this event? And then did the event change or alter, right, that management structure in some way? And thinking about that, not just at the federal level, but also inside Virginia itself at the state level, and what I found is that, that I think the disaster did make a change. And I talk about this, for example.
- [35:52]
At the immediate result in Virginia was a whole series of bills that became law dealing with toxic substances which hadn't been there before. So keep hone kind of exposed this kind of underworld of toxic substances that had always been there. But suddenly now with keephone, people are paying a lot more attention. What businesses are making, right, where they're going, are they going in the water, the air, our bodies. And so Virginia, Virginia's government, right, responded with a series of laws to address that. And then at the federal level, we got the same type of reaction. It wasn't just Capone in Virginia, right. It was PCBs in the Hudson river, for example, and other events that were getting news, getting reported, and that led to new federal laws dealing with toxic substances. So this event, keepone and others were part of an expansion of that management state. And so I talk about that in the book as well.
- [37:07]
So to your question, I guess, about failure, did it go too far? You know, I think one of the things I learned, and that I've kind of taken from this is that, you know, the precautionary principle is not a bad thing.
- [37:25]
Matthew Powell
Right?
- [37:26]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
So in other words, thinking about the precautionary principle as a way to approach, you know, toxic substances, specifically, having the maker of those prove first, right, that they are safe, that their effects are not going to be bad on us or on the ecology, right? We have the opposite, where lots of chemicals are introduced into the world from corporations with little or no attention, very little regulation, some testing, but not thorough testing. And then it's only later, after the fact that that we go back and say, hey, wait a minute, maybe this new substance isn't as safe as you said it was. So to me, the precautionary principle would be something in the United States, at least, the environmental management state ought to be adopting on a more robust way. And it didn't happen in the 70s and it's not happening now, even with new legislation.
- [38:35]
You know, it's still kind of a buyer beware type of a situation where, you know, we've seen this with microplastics now. Right. And other things. So, so to me, I think if we, if we could shift our, our approach. Right. To how it operates, that would, I think, to me, have more benefits to the ecology and to human health. I hope that answered your question.
- [38:58]
Matthew Powell
Absolutely. No, it did, absolutely. I wanted to ask us specifically about like one, one massive part of this environmental management state in this specific instance was control of the fishing industry. And I think that really the states coming in and banning fishing setting certain.
- [39:23]
Years, they had to wait so many years for different kinds of fishing. There's certain safe levels of Capone that can be found in a fish. And I think that this really also highlighted a lot of the tensions within the community in terms of the ways that people made their income. And so I was curious if you could speak a bit more to how these fishermen and these small scale fisheries dealt with the Cubone disaster.
- [39:50]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's a great point too. It's another, again, another aspect. As I got into doing the research, I began to kind of find all these threads. Right. And so it became a lot more complicated, I guess I thought it would be, but you know, in a good way. Right. Because it really shows how interconnected a lot of these, these issues are. Right. So your, your question. Yeah, about the, the fishing industry is a good one because that was a massive part of this story, obviously when, you know, the worker safety part is one part of the story and then the other part of the story is the river and what, what that, what Kehm did to the ecology, to the marine life, which then plays back into the human side, right, because of the seafood industry. So fishing and harvesting of shellfish had a, had a major impact from Kehoe. The ban, as you mentioned, went into effect at the end of 1975. And so this is a really big and very controversial moment when that ban went in. This is, now we're talking. It's just about the 50th anniversary of that ban going.
- [41:01]
And so that shut down the fishing industry in the river. And it was a big economic impact and it was a pretty bold step, right, for the Virginia government to take. And so that's one of those kind of surprise moments when you can imagine a state government doing something like that. Maybe today. I'm not sure they would. They might, but I don't know that they would, but they did in the 1970s. And so, so. And they took a lot of backlash, right, as you mentioned for that, especially not just from the seafood industry itself. But then the political leaders who were connected to them, right. Began to push back. And so what I found was is that in that pushback from the industry they connected up to a growing movement of this kind of conservative counter science and counter movement to the environmental movement movement questioning the validity of regulations, for example, right. On chemicals and toxic substances, questioning the results of studies that showed ketone, for example, caused cancer, pushing back on levels and amounts, all those kind of micro arguments that went on. If we think about the movement that's going on at that moment, the backlash against tobacco regulation, the tobacco industry, we can think of the work that's been done by Naomi Oreskes, right. And other science or historians of science and regulation. Well, that, that world, right, that was being, that was, that was defending the tobacco industry and, and would go on to defend, you know, efforts to try to stop the ozone layer, right from. From being destroyed and you know, safety and automobiles or all of that stuff and cancer, right. All of that. That, that larger sort of ecosystem of pushing back.
- [43:03]
Those pushing back against the fishing bin were drawing from that. And so there's part of the story is the counter evolution of the anti environmental management state, if you could think about it that way. Right. And keep home was part of that story, which again I didn't expect to see, but that's what I found in the documents. So yeah, I think there's one side of it, as you say, that's kind of the regulatory side, right. The environment movement side. But it happened in a moment in the 70s when there was a counter movement that we now have seen a backlash against climate change and things like that. The key pone story was a small part, but it was connected to that.
- [43:47]
Matthew Powell
Debate that was going on and found it interesting when you see there's even these small scale fishermen are nevertheless represented by their organization. And you see basically rival interest groups or lobbying groups quite literally kind of going back.
- [44:10]
Back to back, giving their own data, their own interpretation of the science. And you see the rise of these.
- [44:19]
Basically this corporate science published at the behest of a certain interest group and that often conflicts with the state science or the chemical company science. And I found that interesting.
- [44:34]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, you're exactly right. That was to me a fascinating part too to just see the debt debate unfold. And let me make it clear too, the fishing industry was hit hard there's no doubt about it. The economic impact was significant to them. So we don't want to.
- [44:51]
Matthew Powell
To.
- [44:51]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
We want to make sure we. We understand that. Right. There's a lot of. A lot of people who, you know, went out of business because of that ban and what happened. So, you know, they're not without, you know, it's not without some reason to be upset, to be angry, to be frustrated. Right. And. And they sought restitution through the courts, too. Right. There was a lot of. A lot of legal parts to this story, which is another thread. You know, the workers filed lawsuits, the seafood industry filed their lawsuits as well against Life Science, but also against all Allied, which I mentioned in the book. You know, Life Science was the small company that got all the. A lot of the attention, Right. For polluting the river and poisoning workers. But Allied also made keapone in the 60s and early 70s, and they too, dumped coupon in the river. And that's really where, when the lawsuits happened, the federal ones, you know, they. They went after Allied because they were bigger. You know, they had. They had the resources, right, that could go after them. So, yeah, so the industry, the seafood industry was certainly part of that as well, and it recovered. Right. But it took time, but it did a lot of damage, certainly initially. And just to mention as well, you know, the ban eventually was lifted, as you alluded to, in the mid to late 80s. So it was about. About a little over a decade that it was in effect, but it was lifted in stages. Right. As you mentioned. So kind of an initial ban, and then slowly, certain fish could be caught, certain if oysters were harvested in this way and that way, then eventually whatever was left of the ban was gone by the mid to late 80s.
- [46:36]
Matthew Powell
I kind of want to zoom out here and talk more about the international story of kipon, because Kipon was harming workers in different countries thousands of miles away from each other. Its production was pretty much mainly for export, if I understand. And so it was really an international chemical. Is it possible to understand the history of Hopewell without also considering the history of the French islands that were importing it?
- [47:06]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, I mean, you certainly could, but I think. I think that would be an incomplete story. Right. And maybe somewhat misleading as well. I'll explain again, this was something that, you know, I knew a little or very nothing much about until I started looking at it and realized the connections. So, yeah, just to kind of trace the history briefly. You know, Keepone or Coupone is basically the brand name Allied Chemicals, brand name for a. A pesticide known as Chlorcone. Right. So you'll see Chlorcone as the name, but it can be branded with different marketing names. Coupone's one of them. So Chlorcone was a very, very effective pesticide. Right. It worked really well at taking out key insects, for example, the banana weevil or banana root borer. So banana plantations in the Caribbean, which we'll get to. Right in other place. But also the potato beetle, the Colorado potato beetle. So potato crops, two really big, really important.
- [48:19]
Crops in global agriculture. So Chlorquin was used on both of those things and was very effective and doing its job right, which is to kill insects. So it was used around the world. And I think there's a bigger story to tell there that this book doesn't tell. So I kept the focus on Virginia, right, focusing on Hopewell, but I wanted to make it clear that Hopewell wasn't kind of the end of the story. So like you said, where does it go? Where does this stuff, you know, gets produced? But then what happens? Right? Kind of ask that question. Well, this is what happens. It gets shipped around the world. And so what the main focus now right now in the present about the effects of chlorcone are in the French West Indies, Guadeloupe and Martinique, where the chlordicone and then was used on banana plantations there. The growers used it extensively because it was effective and they could get it in good supply even after life science shut down in 1975. The United States banned the use of keone or chlorcone in 1978, but it wasn't banned elsewhere. Right. So other, other companies, other countries are using it and growers and in the French West Indies continue to use it. So I think if you kind of follow the chemical, right, the Keone part of the story, if you follow that and where does it lead, it leads you to see how extensive and global the chemical relations are with this one pesticide. But I think pesticides and chemicals more generally, right, they might have local effects, but there's global connections, I guess, to all of them. And so to me, that was an important part of the story that I kind of ended the book there to kind of suggest that, you know, maybe some other. Some other people can take it, you know, from there and maybe do a more extensive history that would take it beyond, you know, the case study of Hopewell.
- [50:23]
Commercial Narrator
Ford BlueCruise. Hands Free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control.
- [50:35]
Enjoy the drive in Bluecruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.
- [50:51]
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Coca Cola for the big for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers for old friends and new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you and I. I was.
- [51:52]
Matthew Powell
Particularly struck with this story in Guadeloupe and Martinique about how the French government banned it for use in the French metropole in mainland France, but allowed it on these islands for use in the banana plantations. It was also fascinating to me that in 1974 the workers on these plantations actually.
- [52:16]
Went on strike. And one thing they organized for, even if they, they didn't win this point, was protections against these chemicals. And even if they failed, this shows that they were fully aware that these chemicals were harmful. And of course the plantation owners would have been equally as knowledgeable. Can you speak to why this decision to allow pesticides on these islands while banning it in the French metropole was made? And how does racism play into this decision?
- [52:49]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, that's a great, great question. Yeah, there's again, that's kind of like a second story, right, to the Hopewell story. Right? It's like if we say if we continued on and did more research, we would really, I think, be able to tell that story thoroughly. There are scholars working on that now, and I talked to some of them when I was writing my book. There are scientists, mostly French, but also some from the Caribbean as well, or French mainland. Right. But also some in the Caribbean who are studying the effects of chlorcone on the island. So there's been some work historicizing what's happening now. How did it happen? Why did it happen? So they're kind of doing the same type of work that I was doing with the Hopewell story. So I think what they're finding, and I'm kind of following a lot of their work. Work. I saw some primary sources that I looked at that helped me understand this. But I think a lot of that part of story, I'm relying on a lot of their scholarship. So I want to make sure I give them full credit for what they're up to. So I think you're right. I think the legacy of, certainly in the Caribbean, the legacy of colonialism and the racial colonialism dating back to sugar growing and the enslavement of populations there, that long history, plays a very central part in why it was allowed to continue on those islands. As you mentioned, the growers have a lot of economic power, a lot of political power. Right. And they use that to convince the French government in Paris to, while they're banning other chemicals, Right, like Aldrin and Dialdrin and many others to ban those, but to keep allowing chlorcone on their plantations because, you know, they'd invested in it, they could get it, access to it and it was effective and they didn't want to give it up, and they used that. That power to keep. Keep using it. Even if the French government itself was aware of and knew what was happening, as you mentioned, the workers themselves could see what was going on in the islands, right? To themselves, to. To their local community when chlor. Those into the environment. So even with all of that, I think that's that story and it is definitely connected to the racial history between mainland France and the islands, connected to colonialism and connected to those technical choices. And that's a phrase that some scholars have used, a technical choice. Right. To use cloidal, even though there were alternatives that were. Weren't as damaging. But it was a political and, I guess, technical choice to keep going. But, yeah, that's a really rich and important story that I think is just starting now to be told.
- [55:54]
Matthew Powell
And a lot of these issues, I was struck on how recent some of these activists pushing against pluricone use in the French Caribbean were. And a lot of the problems affecting them and, and the issues you outline affecting Hopewell are ongoing today, even not just in Hopewell or the French Caribbean. This ongoing debate, considering how much we're willing to sacrifice our safety in our environment for economic growth, is something we see on the news basically every day. What impact are you hoping that this blow book has had and will continue to have in informing these conversations for the future?
- [56:39]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, good question. Absolutely. I think, you know, one of the things to remember about, you know, Chlorcone and these pesticides, many of them, right. Generally, you know, they're, they're not called persistent pollutants, you know, for no reason. Right. They're persistent and they're designed to be persistent, Right. They're designed to work to kill insects repeatedly over, over years and years and years. So they get embedded inside the soil, in the water, in bodies. And to me.
- [57:16]
We have to recognize that, that, that long term damage that comes from short term decisions is critical to understand. And so if we think about what happened in Hopewell and what's happening now in the Caribbean and you know, the costs of, you know, apathy, ignorance, you know, political corporate decisions, right. All of those things have really devastating consequences, particularly when it comes to things like toxic substances. Right. The, the, the quick movement of these, these products into the market and then into the environment.
- [57:56]
For short term gains, right. Profits, we're going to call it that. Without due diligence, without that precautionary idea, we're now seeing the long term consequences of this. Our health is at risk because of those decisions. So I'm hoping that thinking about what happened, we could begin to push back against that and think more carefully and more long term about safety not just, just for the non human world, right. But also safety for us as humans and how those two worlds are connected. I think, you know, the Hopewell case study, that's when you mentioned that question earlier about, you know, could you stop at Hopewell? You could, but I don't think you'd have a full picture of what, what, how damaging keepone is, corticone is and how, what it was and what it is. You need to kind of carry the story forward. Forward. What happened in Hopewell was devastating and it, you know, Que Pond is still in the river. Let's remember that, right? It's buried in the sediment, it's still there, it still shows up lower levels than it used to, right. But again it's a persistent pollutant so it's going to have a, a long term effect. It's still there. And what happened on the river and to the workers was devastating. But that as we now see what's happening in the Caribbean, it can be and is a lot worse. Could, could have been a lot worse. So in a sense, you know, workers and the environment in the James river was lucky, right? It was just a short term, a year and a half, it was shut down. Had it continued, had it not been shut down, I think we know what would have happened because we see what's happening now, right in The Caribbean with this. This one pesticide. And that's one pesticide. Right. There are many of these out there. And so I'm hoping, kind of a caution, right. A careful attention to these issues and better efforts to try to.
- [59:59]
Make sure they're safe and to regulate them for our benefit and for the benefit of the planet.
- [60:06]
Matthew Powell
Given this ongoing complex legacy, the fact that Qui Pone is still a part of life in Hopewell, even to a smaller extent than it was before. I'm really curious to hear about your process of doing oral histories for this book. You'd mentioned them earlier. Did you find anyone who is unwilling or hesitant to talk with you about Ki Pone? And were there any interviewees that stood out to you or any that were especially revealing or made you think about the Keep on Disaster in a new light?
- [60:36]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I became interested in oral history, you know, before I did the book. And so I was excited to be able to use that as a. As a tool or as a methodology. And I think, again, you know, the benefit of doing research history, right. Is it that that's available to us as historians so we can access that? And, yeah, I think it was a rich set of narrators that I was able to get a hold of, and I was really fortunate and I used them quite a bit in the book. And yes, there's definitely a divergence of opinion and views about this. We talked a little bit about it earlier, that there were definitely, um, you know, some of the workers I did interview, I think to me, those were. Those were the more powerful ones because it's. It's a reminder, right, of these kind of large, maybe abstract stories, right, about, you know, pollution and toxic substances, but they have real effects on real people, right? And you get that. You get a better sense of that. I guess maybe with oral history you can talk to the people who are deeply affected by this. So I think, to me, those were probably the more powerful ones is when I was able to talk to the workers themselves. And I wish I could have done more. Right. But I'm appreciative of the fact that at least I had some. I think those were really, to me, the ones that stand out in that way. And I think also kind of thinking about.
- [62:07]
Some of the others who I talked to as well were probably those who thought it was overblown, who didn't make much of it. I mean, to get to me, to get that perspective.
- [62:18]
Matthew Powell
Right.
- [62:19]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Well, you know, where is that coming from? Why do you think that? Because again, as you Talked about. Right.
- [62:24]
Matthew Powell
We're.
- [62:24]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
We're always in this. This debate over, you know, economic growth versus safety. Right. Some are pushing one side or the other. So those debates are real. Right. To us now. And it was, to me, interesting to kind of get the perspective on that as well. So that was, to me, interesting to kind of see that. That view there. So, I mean, to me, those are kind of two there. Again, there's lots of others. I talked to lawyers, I talked to scientists. Right. I talked to residents, you know, lots and lots of people. But I think just getting that kind of local perspective from workers, but also those who kind of didn't see it as important to me were. Were some standouts.
- [63:08]
Matthew Powell
No, and I. I really appreciated the parts where I. You quoted these workers or locals or scientists getting their literal, firsthand accounts in your book really allowed the human impact and the more emotional side of this disaster to really shine through.
- [63:32]
Turning historic research, oral histories, all this scientific data you're working with, into writing often requires so much, much cutting out to form your narrative. Before we end, I'm curious to know if there's anything interesting that didn't make it into the book that you'd like to share.
- [63:50]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Oh, wow. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, if you could see the number of images I still have Right. On my. When I took them from my iPhone. Right. And I still have them sitting there. You know, in the old days, you'd go to the archive and photocopy everything. Right. Now you can just take pictures. And so that's good and bad because I have so much material that I didn't use. Yeah. Only I want to say a fraction. Right. But a relatively small amount, I think, is what made it in. So I think what I found was when I was in the archives in Virginia, I saw a lot of material that dealt with an emerging understanding of water and water as a resource and environmental protection of water. And. And that kind of larger story, I couldn't really fit into the book, but I think that, again, would be another avenue to think about is really to tell that story of how Virginia, as a state in the south in particular, was thinking about and understanding pressure on water, water resources. Again, being a coastal state with the James river, the Potomac, the Chesapeake Bay, of course, all of that water is such an important part of that state's history. There was a real. A real story there that I kind of. I took a lot of stuff on. But then at the end of the day, I'm like, yeah, I can't really get this into this book. So that's kind of sitting there. There was a lot of material that I got from the oral history interviews. You know, you do an interview, it's an hour, hour and a half. Sometimes I did two interviews and again, only a small, you know, fraction. Right. Of. Of what people. People told me could. Could make it into the book. So I did try to kind of get. I think I got everybody in somehow. Right. But there's so much more there that could be done too. And, and a lot of. A lot of the documents that I collected in Virginia from, you know, the water board, the air pollution board, the health department, lots of that stuff that again, I had to kind of really be strategic and couldn't get it all in. So I think there's. There's still a lot of material there. Talk a lot more about the evolution of. Of environmental history and the river's history. You know, lots of stuff on the James River. Right. I did a deep dive back back into time with the James river that I ultimately, you know, as I began editing and sent it off right. For review. They're like, yeah, this is good, but, you know, we kind of. We need to get to the story sort of type thing. And I'm like, yeah, I understand where you're. What you're saying. So there's a lot of that story too, about the river itself. So I. I preserve some of that right at the beginning of the book, but there's a lot more to it. So those are just some of the things that I can think of that are out there still. I don't know what I'll do with them, but maybe I'll come back to them at some point.
- [66:54]
Matthew Powell
And on a lighter note, you had also mentioned to me that there was some question as to how to pronounce the chemical Ki.
- [67:03]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Pone.
- [67:04]
Matthew Powell
Could you speak on to that?
- [67:06]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, I learned some of the. These there again, there's some humor right. In this kind of otherwise, you know, dark chapter. And some hope too, right. Some. Some silver linings in some way. So, yeah. So when again, the. The pesticide itself coupone wasn't well known, you know, outside of those who made it and, and the scientists, you know, who discovered it. But as the events in. In Virginia became news, you know, know that that began to bubble up to the national level. So I heard a story and I. I have to. I'm not sure if it's true. I have to investigate this, but that when there was a national news story about this, and it would have been Walter Cronkite Right. The. One of the well known. Right. Anchors from that day. And he wasn't sure how to pronounce the word, so he pronounced it Capone, as in like, you know, Al Capone. So, so just, just to be clear, everyone, it's key pone. I probably should have put that in the. Sure, everybody's saying it, right. But you wouldn't know, right. Unless you had talked about it. And there's, there's stories too, from Hopewell itself. There's, you know, there were bars making, you know, drinks. Right. Keep on cocktails and stuff like that. Poking fun right. At its lethality. Right. By making this drink that smoked. Right. So there was some humor right in there, I guess. And you know, silver lining stuff too, you know, you know, the, the incident prompted. Right. This reaction and the river certainly is cleaner than it was, but there's obviously still a lot of work to do. You know, one of the organizations that came out of this was the Virginia Environmental Endowment, the VEE and that came out of the federal lawsuits against Allied. The money for that created the endowment. And that endowment continues to do a lot of great work in Virginia in terms of protecting the environment. So, you know, so there were, you know, I guess some good driving write some positive things and some funny things that come out of an otherwise rather, you know, dark disaster story that are part of that as well.
- [69:22]
Matthew Powell
Well, before we wrap up, is there anything about the book that we didn't discuss that you'd like to touch on?
- [69:28]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Oh, wow. Yeah, I don't know. We did. We talked about quite a bit. You know, I think, you know, you, we mentioned in tangentially kind of the legal side of it. Right. You know, there's the science side, the biolog side, the ecology side, there's the worker health side, the, you know, the river. There's also the legal side. There were fairly big lawsuits that came out of this. The one lawsuit that ended with a big fine for Allied Chemical, you know, that set a precedent for using the law in that way to find corporations for environmental damages. The, the lawsuits that came out of the seafood industry, for example, some of them have continued to be used and taught in law schools for how they were decided and all of that. So I think again, there's a lot of legacies right, to this story. Many of them, again, I was not aware of right. Until I started doing the research. And so I tried to kind of carry those threads forward as well. But I think we covered the book pretty well and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to answer your great questions, so thank you.
- [70:44]
Matthew Powell
Well, thank you, Dr. Gregory Wilson, for coming on the New Books Network to talk with me today. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about your book, Poison Powder.
- [70:56]
Dr. Gregory Wilson
Yeah, my pleasure.
- [70:58]
Matthew Powell
Thank you, everyone else, for tuning in for another episode of New Books Network.
- [71:09]
Sam.