Podcast Summary: “Ham’s Heaven with Ori Gersht”
New Books Network — September 11, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of the New Books Network features a deep, searching conversation between host Uli Baer and celebrated photographer and visual artist Ori Gersht, who has just published his debut novel, Ham’s Heaven. The novel is a fictionalized account of Ham, the first chimpanzee sent into space by NASA in the early 1960s, and the emotionally charged, ambiguous relationship between Ham and his handler, Bradley. The conversation weaves together history, ethics, art, the boundaries between species, and the implications of progress. Gersht discusses his transition from photography to fiction, the philosophical and visceral foundations of his writing, and the broader questions his novel raises about empathy, memory, and the human condition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin of Ham’s Heaven

• Genesis of the Book (04:17–08:30):
  • Gersht unexpectedly began writing the novel while working on a VR project. Daily writing exercises led him to research the story of Ham the chimpanzee.
  • Gersht describes a chilling detail from Ham’s training: copper wires woven into shoes that deliver electric shocks as a training method. This lingered in his mind, raising questions about how we evaluate others’ pain and the educational use of punishment.
  • “Something really caught my attention and refused to let go... How do we really evaluate the pain of others?” – Ori Gersht (05:00)
  • His background in conceptual and documentary photography shaped his cold, observational narrative approach.

2. Historical and Narrative Context

• The Space Race and Human Ambition (09:49–12:36):
  • The novel situates Ham’s story against the backdrop of the Cold War and the US-Soviet space race.
  • Gersht examines how ambition, fear, and the desire for dominance created an environment where “in the name of progress, we sacrifice the things we love.”
  • Discussion of Hannah Arendt’s concept of the “banality of evil”—people complying with bureaucratic or institutional directives without awareness of the larger ethical implications.
  • “The fear of the Soviet Union... mixed with great ambition and national pride are driving the whole thing.” – Ori Gersht (13:54)

3. The Human–Animal Relationship

• Bridging Empathy and the Limits of Understanding (17:01–24:22):
  • The relationship between Bradley and Ham is central: Bradley finds a deep affinity with the animal, believing he can nurture and protect him in an environment of relentless technical training.
  • Gersht deliberately avoids anthropomorphizing Ham or assuming direct access to the animal’s subjectivity—he writes from observation, physical experience, and reflection, avoiding emotional manipulation.
  • “We can never assume or imagine what goes on in the chimp’s mind.” – Ori Gersht (18:22)
  • The narrative continuously interrogates the abyss—the unbridgeable gap—between animal and human, suggesting that all relationships (not just cross-species) are shaped by such gaps.

4. The Motif of Separation and Loss

• On the Abyss Between Selves and Species (24:22–28:26):
  • Gersht connects the impossibility of returning to an unselfconscious, shared animal existence to the biblical expulsion from Eden, and the tragic desire to reconnect.
  • The story becomes an allegory for all relationships: attempts to bridge existential divides—whether with animals or other humans—often end in tragedy or frustration.
  • “At the center is not a relationship, but a gap or an abyss that we cannot bridge...” – Uli Baer (24:23)

5. Childhood, Empathy, and Transformation

• The Loss of Innocent Identification (28:26–31:03):
  • Both Gersht and his protagonist Bradley recall childhood experiences of imagining themselves as animals, only to lose this innocence with age.
  • There is a mournful ambivalence about “false empathy”—the inability of adults to fully inhabit the experience of the other, animal or human.
  • “The beauty of that is more than just fantasy. It’s actually an ability to lose yourself in the name of loving something so much rather than dominating it.” – Uli Baer (29:14)

6. Literary and Philosophical Influences

• Kafka’s “Report to an Academy” and the Tragedy of Adaptation (30:50–32:43):
  • Gersht draws significant inspiration from Kafka’s story of an ape who transforms himself into a human as a means of survival—an allegory for adaptation at the cost of one’s origin.
  • “There are no other options... all the doors are closed. This is the only way to make his life bearable.” – Ori Gersht referencing Kafka (31:47)

7. Fame, Disposability, and Aftermath

• The Rise and Fall of Ham (37:00–44:00):
  • The conversation parallels Ham’s brief national heroism—being on the cover of Life magazine—to the tendency of societies to discard those who have served their purpose, both human and animal.
  • The novel’s realism shines a light on the constructed, often absurd nature of fame and disposability.
  • Gersht relates this to the present media landscape: “It’s also very relevant to the time we live in today with... the end-all idea of fame.” (36:15)
  • The harrowing aftermath: Ham’s years in isolation, unfit for relationships with other chimps after his ordeal—a metaphor for trauma and alienation following extraordinary or damaging events.

8. The Subtle Magic in Human Violence

• The Ambivalence of Progress and Transcendence (44:00–47:33):
  • The “sublime wish” for transcendence that underlies humanity’s greatest (and often most violent) achievements is acknowledged, held in tension with their cost.
  • Gersht’s artistic sensibility recognizes the brutal absurdity and magic in such dreams—sending a chimpanzee to space is both perverse and inspired.

9. Writing Trauma and Afterlives

• After the Spotlight: Post-Trauma and Disconnection (51:02–56:11):
  • After his ordeal, Ham—like many traumatized individuals—cannot return to “normal,” unable to connect with others or form relationships.
  • The novel’s second half is built largely on imaginative reconstruction, filling the archival silences with fiction to “remember this ape in a different way that has been forgotten.”
  • “When you go through an experience that is so extreme... most people are screwed for life if they’ve been through those extreme situations.” – Ori Gersht (53:45)

10. Literature, Empathy, and Morality

• Fiction as a Space of Uncertainty and Compassion (59:03–64:06):
  • Baer suggests that literature’s virtue is creating space for attention, empathy, and not-knowing, rather than enforcing simple moral prescriptions.
  • Gersht emphasizes that his novel is not a plea for animal rights or moral condemnation, but an exploration of “tragedy, violence, misfortune,” and the entanglement of noble aspiration and harm.
  • “There is something about the ruthlessness and brutality that is part of the gentleness... all part of the fabric...” – Ori Gersht (60:28)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Analyzing Pain and Training:

  • “I was thinking about places like Guantanamo Bay... everything is happening behind closed doors and we hear about something, but we have no way to access them.” — Ori Gersht (06:20)

• On Empathy’s Limits:

  • “I try to be as much as I could consistent... not to overstep. Our emotions as human readers always somehow come from outside.” — Ori Gersht (18:22)

• On the Illusion of Understanding:

  • “There is a famous photo of Ham... there is a big smile on his face. In newspapers that’s described as proud... but actually for chimpanzees this is a sign of real anxiety.” — Ori Gersht (21:42)

• On Progress and Origin:

  • “The missile that Ham is going into space is a Mercury Redstone... based on the V2 missile... developed by slave labor... now they represent advancement and human achievement. A chimp, caught inside this whole thing... is sent into space.” — Ori Gersht (39:00–43:30)

• On Trauma’s Aftermath:

  • “It’s not just that you’ve been forgotten... you don’t have the capability to engage with anyone.” — Ori Gersht (53:45)

• On Writing as Witness:

  • “My writing is a little bit of an effort to remember this ape in a different way that has been forgotten, that was famous for a brief moment... But your book is saying, let's not forget too quickly...” — Uli Baer (52:36)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:41] Introduction of Ori Gersht and Ham’s Heaven
• [04:17] Gersht explains the origin of the novel
• [09:49] Detailing the narrative’s historical backdrop
• [13:54] Fear, ambition, and the machine of progress
• [17:01] The psychology of Bradley and his bond with Ham
• [21:42] Empathy, animal personhood, and anthropomorphism
• [24:22] The tragic, unbridgeable gap at the heart of all relationships
• [28:26] Childhood and the fleeting ability to become “the other”
• [31:03–32:43] Kafka’s influence and the tragedy of adaptation
• [37:00] Fame, disposability, and the aftermath for Ham
• [44:00] The dual forces of human destruction and aspiration
• [51:02] Solitude, trauma, and the impossibility of returning to normal
• [59:03] Literature’s role in cultivating empathy and uncertainty
• [62:39] Competing desires, tragedy in love and power

Closing Reflections

Gersht’s Ham's Heaven and this insightful conversation stand as an invitation to witness rather than to judge. The tragedy is not only Ham’s or Bradley’s but is embedded in the human condition and our endless striving—sometimes for transcendence, sometimes power—often at a terrible cost. The episode – and the book – leave listeners with a profound meditation on the gaps between beings, the price of progress, and the fragile, ambiguous nature of empathy itself.