Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: June Wei Li
Guest: Hélène Landemore, Yale University
Book: Politics Without Politicians: The Case for Citizen Rule (Penguin, 2026)
Date: February 12, 2026

In this engaging episode, June Wei Li interviews Professor Hélène Landemore about her new book, Politics Without Politicians, which champions a transformative vision for democratic governance—one in which ordinary citizens, rather than professional politicians, are at the center of decision-making. Landemore discusses the theoretical lineage of her ideas, insights from real-world citizens' assemblies, the emotional and human aspects of participatory democracy, and prospects for expanding this model across sectors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Landemore’s Intellectual Trajectory & Book Rationale

• Development from Theory to Practice

  • Landemore explains how her first book (Democratic Reason) explored the epistemic (knowledge-based) strengths of democracy and theorized that randomly selecting representatives (sortition) maximizes cognitive diversity.

    "If we cared about maximizing the epistemic properties of democracy, we would probably need to select our representatives differently in order to maximize the cognitive diversity." — Landemore [01:23]

• From ‘Open Democracy’ to Emotional Dimensions

  • Her second book, Open Democracy, answered practical questions by observing real-world experiments, like Iceland's crowdsourced constitution and citizens' conventions in France.
  • Politics Without Politicians moves beyond theory to examine emotional and human aspects of civic participation:

    "If the two books before provided a form of skeleton, I think with this book I start providing the flesh on the skeleton." — Landemore [11:20]

Redefining Democracy and the ‘Shy’

• Core Arguments of the Book

  • Landemore foregrounds the inclusion of 'the shy'—a stand-in for citizens traditionally sidelined by competitive, elite-driven politics. She draws inspiration from a G.K. Chesterton quote:

    "All real democracy is an attempt, like that of a jolly hostess, to bring the shy people out." — cited by Landemore [10:57]

  • She contrasts professional politicians (who often are bold, privileged, and not representative) with ordinary citizens, many of whom are excluded:

    "Politicians are different from ordinary citizens ... They see politics as a job ... And ... are not a random sample of the population. They are typically wealthier, more educated, more male, more white, less shy and bolder." — Landemore [13:32]

Historical Roots of Elitist Democracy

• Why We Accept Professional Politicians
  • The host asks why democracy became synonymous with professional politicians:

    "Why is this association between politicians and democracy so strong in our current climate?" — Li [16:49]

  • Landemore points to the origins of modern democracies where ‘natural aristocracies’ were entrusted to rule and discusses the persistence of this elitism:

    "Genealogically, so to speak, we anchored our understanding of democracy in a very elitist and oligarchic sort of terrain." — Landemore [17:04]
    "I think that we could say that we are in hybrid democracies. Hybrid oligarchies ... It's very constrained because ... we really have a limited choice to begin with." — Landemore [17:51]

How Lotteries/Sortition Work in Practice

• Blueprint of Citizens' Assemblies
  • Landemore describes the practical mechanics, advocating for random selection (with or without demographic quotas) to mirror the diversity of society:

    "The initial intuition is very simple. It's one person, one lottery ticket. ... As long as you're a member of the Demos, you have an equal chance of being selected." — Landemore [20:33]

  • She notes ongoing debates: while some, like Alex Guerrero, argue for purely random selection, Landemore supports stratified sampling for representativeness. Recent computational tools even aim to optimize both fairness and diversity.

    "In practice ... you define categories like gender ... education level ... rural versus urban ... and fill your assembly ... to satisfy those predefined quotas ... a variation of the simple principle." — Landemore [21:39]

Real-World Experiences with Citizens' Assemblies

• Inspiring Cases: France’s Climate and End-of-Life Conventions

  • Landemore’s theoretical work became grounded through her direct involvement in two French citizens’ assemblies.
    • French Climate Convention (2019-2020): Sparked by the Yellow Vest protests as a democratic solution to political discontent; inspired by Irish precedents.

      "He [Macron] said, I'm going to convene...a Citizens Convention for climate, inspired by the Irish president." — Landemore [25:33]

• Personal Transformations

  • She describes how participants, initially skeptical or disempowered, experienced profound civic connection, empowerment, and transformation:

    "He [Jules] said, well, when I feel loved and there are a lot of people who love me in this assembly...he went from disgruntled to happy and feeling recognized as a human being." — Landemore [29:07]

  • Assemblies foster friendship, civic bonding, and even “patriotism”—a sense of purpose rarely found in normal political life.

    "Given the dire state of our democracies, I don't see why we wouldn't leverage this potential to mend the social fabric, cure loneliness ... and give dignity to people who feel very diminished and ignored." — Landemore [30:13]

• Governance Lessons: Power and Capture

  • From her deeper involvement in the End-of-Life Convention, Landemore became aware of both the danger of expert capture (organizers having too much influence) and the resilience of citizen self-assertion.

    "The current design of the citizen assemblies is too vulnerable to capture ... We could totally shape the outcome ... But ... the citizens push back ... once you tell them it's your convention, you're the one in charge, they take you very seriously." — Landemore [33:06]

    • She advocates for future assemblies to be more self-governing, with citizens rotating into leadership roles to protect procedural justice and autonomy.

      "I do think the next iteration of the citizens assemblies need to basically be self governed ... rotating ... to make the key decision that are about process ... truly self governing." — Landemore [34:28]

• Memorable Deliberations

  • Landemore recounts an emotionally resonant moment when citizens debated how to select delegates to meet President Macron:

    "There was a discussion about ... who is going to represent the group ... Some said ... people who can measure up to President Macron ... huge pushback ... He needs to be brought down to our level ... we should use [random] selection ... And so that's what they did." — Landemore [36:49]

Technocracy, Expertise, and New Possibilities

• Changing the Expert/Citizen Dynamic

  • Citizens’ assemblies even transform technocrats, making them more open to new perspectives and less arrogant.

    "It's not just the transformation of the citizen participants. It's a transformation of the experts and the technocrats..." — Landemore [43:27]

  • She describes how experts at first used technical jargon and were paternalistic, but soon learned to value citizens' competence and shifted roles from decision-maker to advisor.

    "You’re a public servant, you’re a civil servant. You're at the service of ordinary citizens, the public ... So your job is to advise, enlighten ... your job is not to decide." — Landemore [46:54]

• Applicability Beyond Government

  • Landemore discusses potential beyond government—to bureaucracies (for regulatory feedback) and even corporate governance:

    "It's really a building block ... you can use in many contexts where you're not happy with the representation you're getting ..." — Landemore [50:17]

  • She references ongoing experiments with citizen juries in Dutch and British pension funds (Emily Cooper’s work) and her own collaboration with Luigi Zingales and Oliver Hart on how citizen assemblies could help investment funds incorporate shareholder values beyond profit.

    "In our model ... how much money you have invested actually matters ... I tend to think that ... it should be one shareholder, one lottery ticket, not one share, one lottery ticket ..." — Landemore [52:43]

Looking Ahead: Future Projects and AI

• What’s Next For Landemore

  • A new citizens’ assembly project is launching in Connecticut, with focus on citizen self-governance.

    "This Citizen's assembly on local public services in Connecticut ... I'm particularly excited about trying to bring about a self governing assembly from the beginning." — Landemore [54:18]

  • Landemore wants to explore the relationship between AI and epistemic democracy, particularly whether advanced AI could challenge democracy's knowledge-aggregation advantages.

    "Now of course comes in this...powerful new entity called artificial intelligence. And what if it turns out to be so much smarter than humans ... I have some objections ... but I haven't really taken the time to write it down." — Landemore [55:02]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Spirit of Real Democracy:

  "All real democracy is an attempt, like that of a jolly hostess, to bring the shy people out." — G.K. Chesterton via Landemore [10:57]

• On the Transformative Power of Civic Participation:

  "When I feel loved, and there are a lot of people who love me in this assembly." — 'Jules,' French Citizen Assembly Participant, retold by Landemore [29:07]

• On the Need for Citizen Self-Governance:

  "I do think the next iteration of the citizens assemblies need to basically be self governed ... [with] citizens ... rotating ... to make the key decision[s] ..." — Landemore [34:28]

• On Power Dynamics with Experts:

  "You’re at the service of ordinary citizens, the public. So your job is to advise, enlighten ... your job is not to decide." — Landemore [46:54]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:08] — Landemore’s summary of past work and how it led to Politics Without Politicians
• [10:57] — Introduction of “the shy” and the Chesterton quote
• [13:18] — Definition and critique of politicians vs. ordinary citizens
• [17:04] — Historical root of oligarchic elements in democracy
• [20:31] — Blueprint for sortition (lottery-based selection)
• [24:55] — Landemore’s involvement in French citizens’ assemblies
• [29:07] — Story of 'Jules' and emotional transformation in assemblies
• [33:06] — Dangers of process capture by experts and how citizens self-assert
• [36:49] — Citizens debate selection methods for meeting with President Macron
• [43:27] — Effects of citizens’ assemblies on technocrats and application beyond government
• [50:17] — Application to investment funds and pension funds
• [52:43] — Representation dilemmas in shareholder democracy
• [54:14] — Landemore’s upcoming projects and reflections on AI

Character & Tone

Throughout, Landemore speaks with clarity and humility—frank about both the promise and the challenges of citizens’ assemblies. She weaves theory with lived stories, using humor and candid reflection, and consistently frames bold proposals with practical awareness.

Takeaway

Hélène Landemore’s Politics Without Politicians invites us to imagine, with both evidence and empathy, a democracy in which anyone—especially the quiet, the excluded, the "shy"—can help steer our collective fate. Her research, personal participation, and the moving stories she shares on this episode illuminate not only a new blueprint for politics, but its deep human heart: belonging, recognition, and shared purpose.