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- [00:00]
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Farzana Dr.
Welcome to the New Books Network hello and welcome to the New Books Network. I am your guest Host today, Farzana Dr. And I will be speaking with Hale Ghattory about her new novel The Unraveling of Ooo, which was released by Palimpsest Press in 2026. Here's the book's description. Moving on is hard. It's even harder when it's from a make believe friend, someone, or in this instance, something who's been your strongest source of support on what should be the happiest day ever. The day her granddaughter is born, Minou is faced with a terrible choice. Make a clean break from her constant companion, a sock puppet named Ecology Paul, or lose her daughter and granddaughter and maybe all of the people she loves. On an emotional drive home from the hospital, Ecology Paul shares the story of how Minnu got to this point, recalling Minnu's early teenage pregnancy in Iran, her exile to Canada, her questions about her sexuality, and how a ragtag sock puppet came to her when she desperately needed to be seen. Full of imagination, whimsy and heart, the Unraveling of U follows Minnu's struggles to justify the puppet's existence and untended entangle herself from her dependence on it and reconnect with the people she loves. And here's the author's bio. Hale Ghattari is a multi genre writer living in Ontario on Anishnabiland she has her MFA in Creative Writing from the University of Guelph. Fuse. Her memoir of mixed race, identity and mental health, was released by Guernica Editions in 2021 and won the 2023 Canadian Book Club Award for nonfiction memoir. Her collection of poetry, Rebellion Box, was released by Radiant Press in 2023, and her collection of short fiction, Widow Fantasies, was released with Gordon Hill Press in fall 2024 and was long listed for the Toronto Book Award. Her debut novel, the Unraveling of Ooo is out now, right? It's out. Holly is a host on the New Books Network as well as co host on Howl on CIUT 89.5 FM. She's also a the regional Chair of the League of Canadian Poets and a co chair of the League's BIPOC Committee, as well as the Poet Laureate of Scugog Township. You can find out more about her@holegattery.com welcome Holly, I'm so thrilled to be able to interview you. Your book was my first read of 2026 and I have a feeling that it will be one of my favorites because of its blend of emotional depth, magical realism, and humor.
- [03:57]
Holly Ghattari
Thank you so much. I'm so honored that you're interviewing me because, well, you know I'm a huge fan of your work, so I'm delighted. Thank you.
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Farzana Dr.
Thank you. It's fun to be on this side of the mic, so why don't we start with the obvious? Ecology Paul the sock puppet. The gender pronoun for Ecology Paul is a Farsi non gendered one. OO to explain to the audience the OO in the title, can you talk a little bit about how this unique and original narrator came to be? And also, can you share your process for developing Oo's voice?
- [04:37]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah, thank you so much for that question. So oo is a Farsi pronoun that just means he or she. There's not a gendered pronoun for either of them. There is of course, like a group pronoun, like they. They do have a word for they use, but ooh is just a really delightful little piece of knowledge I picked up when I was trying to reacquaint myself as far as C, but that part didn't come in. The idea of oo didn't come in until much later. This started with me thinking about creating things to cope with difficult times. Whether it's art, whether it's a craft, you know, a snowman outside when you're having a bad day, but the act of creation to cope with tragedy or just uncomfortable feelings, whatever it is. So that's where this idea came from. I was reading Adele Wiseman's incredible memoir of creativity and motherhood, Old Woman at Play, which is about her mother's prolific doll making. And her mother made a whole bunch of dolls and around the house and just with stuff that she had around the house, like onion netting and bleached fishbones and scraps of fabric. And it was. Was really bizarre, but just whimsical and lovely endeavor that her mother had. And Adele was watching it and commenting on it and commenting on creativity and how mothers are creative and, I mean, in the ways in which women are creative. And I was just absorbed in this book, which is out of print. So if anybody is listening, wants to put it in print, this is a really good time to do it. And I was thinking about that. And I'm raising young daughters, and, I mean, they're not as young anymore, but my oldest has just entered teenagehood. And I was just this confluence of things and thoughts and feelings in my head about the world and female shame and what it means to be in these bodies and the experience of being queer, but being a woman who is.
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Queer and so ashamed of your body.
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That you cannot even acknowledge that you would be attracted to a body like yours. So there's a whole bunch going on in my head at once. And I've always felt a lot of shame around my body and kind of a detachment from my body. I've lived with eating disorders, and I was someone who didn't really acknowledge my queerness until maybe my mid-30s because I was so ashamed of who I was. I've since learned I am not alone in this. It's very common for women. But at that point, I felt very alone. So all this stuff was going on, and a puppet seemed like the. Now it seems like the most natural thing I could have done at the time. I had other voices that I was trying to work into this novel, but I couldn't help it. The puppet, like ecology Paul, was just.
- [07:33]
So sweet and affable and endearing and kind, and it was.
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I kept on trying to write the puppet a little bit meaner, but every time I did, like, a little bit, like, more tough love than he ended up or oo ended up being. And it was so weird because every time I did it, it just seemed. Felt disingenuous. So I always heard novelists say things about, oh, the character took me here, the character took me there. And I'd never really written long fiction before. Just flash fiction. And I wasn't really getting. Picking up what people were putting down when they said that. But then when I started writing those, I'm like, oh, they're right. They're not just like, bananas. Actually, characters do tell you what to do. And ecology poll very much just came into my head. And every time I tried to make the puppet a little bit harder, a little bit more stern, with me knew that was just not like, they just wouldn't do it. The puppet would not do it. The puppet is the soft place in the world that I think we all need so badly.
- [08:31]
Farzana Dr.
And did you start. When you were starting to write the book, did you say, this is going to be my narrator? Or did that evolve?
- [08:41]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah, it evolved. I had different perspectives. I think at one point there was like, sisters in the book. But I constantly hear people saying, write what obsesses you? So what happened was, I guess I just got obsessed with the puppet and the puppet's voice, and I just went with that. And everything else fell away. I wasn't interested in anybody else except the puppet. And I realized at the time that it was a little bit, perhaps strange that I was going to have to pull this off as convincingly as possible. But I. For the first draft, all I was thinking was, I'm just gonna have fun with this and see where it goes, and then I'll work on making it convincing later.
- [09:25]
Farzana Dr.
Right. Wonderful. Do you want to read a short excerpt to give people a feeling for this narrator?
- [09:33]
Holly Ghattari
Sure, sure.
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So I'm thinking I will read from the first chapter of the book, which.
- [09:39]
Is short, and I won't read the whole thing.
- [09:41]
I'll just read a little bit because we're kind of thrown into the action. It's not every day a sock puppet visits a maternity ward.
- [09:48]
Minu and I fly down the hall, the anticipated squeak of hospital vinyl absent from under our feet. We are weightless shoes barely touching the ground. A reflection of Minu's form glides beneath.
- [10:00]
Us, wraith like we are darkly mirrored.
- [10:03]
In the freshly waxed floor. And Minu, she stares ahead, unseeing, not seeing me. I mean, as conspicuous as I am to everyone else, my existence is as natural to her as the weight of her tongue in her mouth or the air filling the lungs in her chest. She doesn't see the nurse who jumps out of our way either, flattening her body to the wall, Blue eyes large with shock. I know Minu would rather cut off her arm than look at me. I can feel it.
- [10:30]
Her hand.
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Her hand with the soft palm and short nails is less of a hand now and more of a fist. Its metacarpal tension curls in my body. Minu. I try to say her name but she won't let me open my mouth. Minu, listen to me. Ahead, the elevator doors slide open and.
- [10:49]
A boy emerges with a bouquet of balloons.
- [10:51]
He looks at us as we pass, then turns to look again, a smile tickling the corner of his mouth. The boy's cola colored eyes sparkle, registering my absurdity, my static gray skin and yellow pipe cleaner curls bursting wildly from the top of my head, my lolling red felt tongue. My eyes, one round, flat and green and placed half an inch lower than the left, which is smaller and black and not flat but domed like half a gumdrop. Me, a handmade toy perched dumbly on the hand of a frazzled and frizzy haired middle aged woman. A woman who would look a lot more pulled together, even pretty, if she put on a little lip gloss and massage some serum through her hair like I suggested. She has been going to meet her.
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Grandbaby for the first time and while.
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The baby wouldn't have cared how she looked, her daughter did. Roya would have cared if she made the effort and Roya had cared a lot. I see me as the boy must, a crudely made toy. I admit my appearance is more primitive than Minnu's later creations, but my simplicity has served me well. Out of all of us, I'm the only one still here. The boy stands under his rainbow balloon umbrella, smiling. He is the last thing I see before the elevator doors close and Mino slams me into the steel panel, slams.
- [12:06]
Me again and again until our bodies.
- [12:09]
Vibrate with the force of her pain, our sadness. Because I may be the stuff of stuffing and nonsense, but I can feel as much as Minu. And of course I'm the reason Raya shouted at us to leave. Leave now and take that thing with you. She called me a thing, but Rhea knows my name. She could recognize my face before she recognized her own. She's known it almost as long as she's known Minu's, though I don't claim she's studied mine with as much devotion. Mothers are gods first true loves. Minou falls forward, chest heaving. She rests her head beside mine on the panel. The cool shock of steel is calming and her breath slows. My body relaxes. She rolls her forehead so her eyes meet mine. It's okay, Mino. My voice, which has always been high, is tight now too. I clear my throat and try to relax my pitch It'll be okay. Let's talk.
- [13:04]
Farzana Dr.
Thank you so much. It's such a great opening scene.
- [13:08]
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- [13:23]
Holly Ghattari
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- [13:37]
Farzana Dr.
See terms and let me. Let's ask a little bit more about ecology. Paul. So, ooh, says I was here because Minnu was scared to be. Minnu has experienced a lot of hardship in her life, including her mother's rejection. And the theme of mothers and daughters is very present in this book. I think on page eight you write, let's talk about how our mothers are gods, all knowing, but unknowable. Can you talk about this theme and what it meant to you?
- [14:10]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah. Thank you for this.
- [14:12]
I. I was thinking a lot about.
- [14:16]
You know, mothers and daughters, not just.
- [14:17]
Because I am a mother and I am a daughter and I was reading Old Women at Play, but because I'm endlessly fascinated by and frustrated by the way that women uphold the patriarchy. And then I was really honed in on how mothers can pass that legacy of internalized misogyny onto their daughters, often without intent. I was thinking about how, you know, my teenage daughter, who was, now she's a teenager at the time, she's a preteen. I would sometimes say things to her, not say things or just want to say things to her that I'd have to check myself with and interrogate. And there were things that were said to me as a girl about maybe what I was, how I was behaving or what I was wearing and that pressure that we have as young girls to be at once everything to everyone and also make ourselves very small and, you know, just, again, things that, you know, my mother had said to me and not with any, again, malicious intent. I don't believe that most mothers are trying to do harm. I think that again, we've been passed on these legacies of shame and fear and we pass those on just because that's, that's what we've been taught. Will is supposed to make us safe.
- [15:39]
And it doesn't make us safe at all. It makes us small and scared and powerless.
- [15:43]
So I was really interested in exploring that. And as I was checking myself and, you know, don't comment on, you know, what your daughter's wearing and, you know, just. Just things like that. I mean, I even still remember reading your. For your. No. Well, the first book I read of yours, which was seven and that. Seven, sticking with me about shame and sexual shame and. And the shame we feel about our bodies. And so this is something that's been swirling. This idea has been swirling around in my head in a very, like, cloud, like, nebulous fashion with no clear, you know, purpose for. For years before I conceived of even writing a novel, I never thought I'd write a novel. It seemed too unwieldy for me. But I think once you have enough of these nebulous thoughts and they kind of start building and building and building, there's kind of a storm that just needs to be released. And that's what happened here. And the themes of mothers and daughters was always on my mind because you look at this world right now and you see the way that women are passively and very actively upholding the patriarchy. And it kind of makes me angry a little bit. I guess there's a lot of rage in my life. And it's like, you know, if every woman just said, you know, we're not going to do this. We are not going to be catty, critical or competitive with other women. We are not going to slut shame women. We are going to uplift women. Sure. Like, we can, you know, we can engage with community correction, we can help each other, but we. We should support each other more. I mean, I think so. So much could be solved just by women coming together and not being pitted against each other by external and internal forces. So that's where that all came from.
- [17:27]
Farzana Dr.
And Minnu would have had such a different trajectory if she had a mother who could have paused just a little bit and questioned her own values. And, you know, one of the things that we learn about in the book is that both Minou and someone she's close to experiences a form of exile by parents from Iran to Canada as kind of like, I guess the parents thought that this was protecting the kids or maybe a kind of course correction. And I was interested and curious about both the use of this as a literary device, but also as a human experience. Can you talk about that? Like, is this something that happens in families? And then also, what was, I guess, the purpose of it as a literary device for you.
- [18:19]
Holly Ghattari
I started reading this book and I remember thinking to myself, I don't want anyone to pass away. Like, it's not that there isn't anyone who's passed away off screen, but I, I sometimes feel like in books that like, these immense cosmic existential tragedies have to happen to drive plot forward. And the truth is I, I think that sometimes, like just life living, the, the everyday petty grievances are enough to. To, you know, hurt us and damage us. And we don't need the existential crisis to, to drive our lives and into plots forward. So there was definitely that with me, like, the idea of different kinds of exiles and absences and trying to not have like, you know, like there's always, like, you see movies and even books. So it's like, okay, the mother passes away and that changes the course of this teenager's life, you know? And I was like, no, no, no, we're not, we're not going to do that. I have intent not to do that because we. It doesn't need to happen to, to move live. And then there was also the fact that of, of powerlessness that I wanted to check in because, you know, growing up again, loving my parents very much, but I always felt very powerless, like I had no say in my life. And I think that there's certain generations.
- [19:43]
Perhaps that.
- [19:46]
I remember hearing someone say that childism is one of the last acceptable isms. So childism, like viewing children as like proto humans, as not quite fully human beings and not giving them their autonomy, which of course it's not the same as saying, here are the keys to my car and here's like a 2, 4 of beer. Have at her. That's not it. It's like, it's not nothing about like not protecting or guiding your children, but just not actually seeing them as human and not giving them, if not choice, the illusion of choice, you know, like, okay, well, you know, you don't have to do. You don't have to go to school today if you're, if you say you're not feeling well. But if you stay home, we're not. There's going to be no screens. You can rest and read books. So that's giving them the illusion of choice even though you're guiding their choices. Especially with my kids, who I doubt are sick half the time, so. But I don't want to force them to go to school. As someone, as a kid who was forced to go to school and I was legitimately sick and that your voice not being believed. And I think that that was very much part of this powerlessness of exile that I was trying to explore, that, you know, Minou had no say in what happened to her. Somebody made a decision about her life, and she needed her parents so much, especially her mother, and she was powerless.
- [21:14]
She didn't even.
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Like, she. She didn't have the language. She didn't have the words. She didn't have the knowledge about herself or her body or her world. She had nothing, and she was pushed away. So I. I wanted to explore that frustration that I felt feeling so powerless over everything that happened in my life.
- [21:35]
Farzana Dr.
Thank you for that. Let's. Let's turn to a craft question. So I noticed all the multiple and varied ways you describe people's eyes. And I noticed these kinds of things as a writer and a reader, because I have an almost irrational dislike for repetitive language. And you never repeated any of these descriptions? For examp, there are caviar eyes and liquid walnuts, and there's so many. And I assumed that this was intentional, a particular interest to the sock puppet narrator who has, you know, different eyes. But I've since learned that it wasn't intentional. It was just something that happened. So I wonder if you could talk about that, but also any prose tips for writers about how to come up with lively descriptions of appearance?
- [22:27]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah, I had no idea I did that at all. But, Farzana, you're a poet, too. I think you'd agree. Prose writers need to read more poetry. Read poetry, read it widely. And in poetry, repeating a metaphor is like a cardinal sin. Right? You can have an entire book of poems. Do not use the same metaphor ever. But of course, in prosecution, I've recently gone through a stint of reading Romantasy. I felt the need for something just like. Just lovely and escapist. A lot of romantic. Not all of them, but a lot of romantasy. Authors, I found, like, repeat metaphors or ways of describing someone's eyes or someone's hair. Like, it's the same way every time. And like you, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, language isn't perfect, but, like, you can do a lot, stretch it, play. And I think poetry encourages you to play. So I consider myself a poet probably before anything else. So I. I don't think. I wasn't conscious of the fact that I was using different descriptions every time. It's just something that I do because I consider it lazy. And, I mean, that's kind of cruel. I know there's, like, a pejorative weight to lazy But I, I think there's a lack of curiosity about what you can do with language to use the same metaphor more than once.
- [23:49]
Farzana Dr.
So this is just a muscle you have, and it came just naturally, I guess. Yeah. Or not naturally. It's like well practiced at this point.
- [23:59]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah, I think it's more well practiced than natural, as I can look at some of my earlier work and my metaphors have a little bit lazy, that's for sure.
- [24:09]
Farzana Dr.
Okay, here's another craft question. There's a lot of non linear storytelling and it weaves really gracefully back and forth in time without time markers. Like at the beginning of a chapter, for example. And this is something that I find challenging to do as a writer is to not fill the beginning of the pages with the time marker. So did you have any strategies that you're aware of of how you shifted in time, but it wasn't unclear to the reader where we were?
- [24:44]
Holly Ghattari
Well, I'm glad that it wasn't unclear to you, because I did fret about that in subsequent drafts. In the first draft, I didn't think about it, I didn't care. I just did what felt organic. But in subsequent drafts, I did worry. So the chapter headings were a way of gently orienting the reader, though not necessarily in time, sometimes just thematically with what was going to be discussed. Um, I, I really, I was. I have trouble with chronological order for anything.
- [25:14]
My memoir wasn't chronological.
- [25:16]
Um, I, I don't think chronologically. Like, I feel like feeling is just like everything at once. Everything is now there's a simultaneous nature to experience where you're feeling everything at once. Um, you know, like I, you know, I see a tulip and I'm not just seeing the tulip that's here now. I'm seeing every tulip. The tulip, you know, that were in my hospital room when I gave birth to my son, that somebody brought. Like, it's this multitude of experience. So I just did what felt natural. And then I went through and tried to give anchors, sometimes with the help of Beta readers and sometimes with my help of my editor. Once this was accepted, but by that point I think I had it fairly well honed. But from a craft level, it's really just giving the readers like, like a space, an extra space between something and, you know, noticing a detail of the scene that you're taking them back to that you maybe touched on before. Like, let's say that tractor. When Mimi was driving through town, you mentioned the tractor before. And then when you come back to the tractor, you're trying to guide them back to the present scene from the past. Talking about that tractor again, you know, just making use of the details you noticed before and then not being repetitive about them, but expanding on them. And what would somebody be noticing? What would the puppet be noticing about that tractor? Now, that informs the mood and the direction of the narrative.
- [26:48]
Farzana Dr.
That's really smart. Thank you. Okay, so let me just ask you a little bit about your presence in the world. You are so involved in Canlit, both as a volunteer and literary citizen and as a publicist writer, a poet laureate. You've also written posts urging other readers to get better about their literary citizenship. And, you know, on Facebook, I see you. I mean, this might just be perception, but it looks like you are out every single night attending a literary event, which probably isn't true. Can you speak just about this literary citizenship, this getting involved, and how do you manage to do so much? I'm such an introvert that for me, if I go to one literary event in a week, I'm like, okay, that was my quota.
- [27:42]
Holly Ghattari
Yeah, I'm not. I don't think I'm at as many literary events I used to be at.
- [27:47]
Farzana Dr.
More.
- [27:48]
Holly Ghattari
I'm not at as many literary events as I'd like to be. I don't even live in one of the metropolises, so I don't live in Toronto. I don't live. I live out in rural Ontario. Like, I'm nowhere around where events are happening. I'm everywhere from my heart and soul, but nowhere that events are happening.
- [28:08]
But.
- [28:10]
It'S a lot. But I was like a nerdy little kid. And to be clear, I'm just a nerdy bigger kid now that. That hasn't changed. But I didn't have what I felt like a lot of community or closeness or understanding growing up. And books were everything. Books were my life. I still remember the feeling of reading Frenchman's Creek by Daphne du Maurier for the first time and how it changed my life. Or Cracking India by Babsi Sidwa. Like, I just. I remember where I was. I remember feeling myself and feeling that community and connection. So to me, it's. There's like two parts going on. There's me just genuinely doing what I feel like is who I am, which is being with my friends who are. I'm not necessarily the writers, although they're lovely too. But like the books, literature, something that feels organic to me is supporting something I truly love and is part of who I am. But as a publicist, there's also this Part of me who understands that the our culture is suffering. There's not as many opportunities for writers. You know, the Globe and Mail in Toronto used to have like this multi page book section and it's just dwindled down to almost nothing. Now you can't find a single place that will even touch poetry for reviews, except for the Winnipeg Free Press. Shout out to the Winnipeg Free Press, who is like a standalone book section, which is wonderful, but that's basically it in Canada. And I'm really aware of the fact that if there's not this movement of just the community and of readers and.
- [29:43]
Of people who love culture and literature.
- [29:45]
Uplifting these things, it is not going to exist. And while I would love to sit in my ivory tower and just create and read and just have other people do this work, I mean that's not how it is now if it's ever been. But I don't have a reference for how it was before I entered the world as a writer. So I've only known that I've had to work really hard to get anyone to pay attention to forget about my books, forget about them. I find other people's books more interesting. The books I love. I want everyone to read them. I want everyone to have empathy and to learn to cultivate their empathy through the perspectives of others. I want people to not comment some snarky remark on a post on TikTok or Instagram, instead, read a poem. I want people to understand that your life will be better for immersing yourself in art and culture. I mean, not literature, yes, but everything. Go to the ballet, listen to some music, you know, you know, go to an art gallery, even just your local art galleries. You don't have to go to the big ones. I mean, just I, I, I'm passionate about that because I feel like our souls are starving for it. I feel like we as a people and a society and a world are starving for it. So I have this kind of endless source of energy. But that doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated or sometimes like rage walk or go for a run and just like, oh, get really angry at everything. And I do feel burnt out a lot. And I really hope more people do what they can. Of course we all have different abilities and different resources and we can't do everything. But if like Everybody did like 10% more, I think, I think we'd be as a culture and as a community of writers in a much better place.
- [31:36]
Farzana Dr.
What's one thing that a reader or a writer who wants to do. Maybe they're not. They're not very involved. But what's one thing that someone could do to help nurture this literary landscape a bit more?
- [31:49]
Holly Ghattari
I would just say to talk about books. Just talk about them. It doesn't have to be online, although you could do that too, of course. Talk about them in your communities. Join a bulk book club, especially if you have a local library. Book club like this is something that's free for you. Request that they carry books published by Canadian publishers specifically. No disrespect to multinational presses, they publish.
- [32:11]
A lot of good books.
- [32:12]
But the ones who publish books that are completely made in Canada by Canadian and indigenous authors, I think, you know.
- [32:20]
That'S a really easy way to do it.
- [32:22]
And of course, the post about it on social media, if you can interview an author on a blog for a literary platform, if you want to review a book. I understand not everyone likes reviewing books. It's a lot of labor. But that is a good idea, too.
- [32:37]
Farzana Dr.
Wonderful. I think we have to wrap up here. Thank you, Holly. And big thanks to everyone who are listening. That's also a way to nurture the literary landscape is to support these kinds of interviews and podcasts. And I encourage everyone to go out and buy the book. Buy the Unraveling of OO and wherever it's available, wherever books are sold. But also think about placing a hold or requesting or borrowing it from your local library. Thanks again, Holly.
- [33:09]
Holly Ghattari
Thank you so much, Farzana.