Human Leadership for Humane Technology

Summary

Podcast Summary: Human Leadership for Humane Technology

New Books Network – Liminal Library
Host: Nicholas McKay
Guest: Cornelia C. Walther
Date: September 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Liminal Library on the New Books Network, host Nicholas McKay interviews author and humanitarian Cornelia C. Walther. The conversation explores Walther's journey from humanitarian work with UNICEF to academia and authorship. They delve into her recent books on technology, social change, human leadership, and the concept of "pro social AI." The episode provides insights into how technology both connects and divides, how values influence design and use of technology, and the critical role of human leadership in shaping humane technology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cornelia C. Walther's Journey: From Humanitarian Work to Academia

• Background (02:06): Walther describes her 20 years with UNICEF working globally in humanitarian operations, later moving into academia and writing to explore how individual transformation fuels social change.
• On the Shift:
  • “I wouldn't really consider it as a switch... It seemed like an organic continuum where one piece is just building onto the others.” (06:05)
• Motivation for Writing:
  • “I don't like writing... every single time when I'm once again in the middle of a book, I'm thinking, and why did I take this on?... It helps me to discipline my own thinking...” (07:58)

Reflections on Human Interconnectedness and Technology

COVID-19 and Exposing Digital Divides

• Main Idea:
  • Technology made new forms of connection possible during the COVID pandemic, but also revealed and deepened inequalities.
  • “Everything that can become a door can also be a wall in the moment where you don't have the necessary tool to access it.” (11:08–13:43)
• On Digital Exclusion:
  • “The Internet can be an amazing tool… but… in the moment where the person either does not have a computer or… doesn't have Internet… that door might just as well be a glass wall.” (11:08–13:43)

The Posy Paradigm: Framework for Understanding Human Experience

• Explanation: Posy stands for peace in Haitian Creole, with Walther conceptualizing it around four human dimensions—soul (aspirations), heart (emotions), mind (thoughts), and body (sensations/behavior).
  • “The quest for meaning is not something you can delegate to a ChatGPT, but… only you yourself can give.” (16:00)
• Systems View: Individual and collective transformation requires attention to these interwoven dimensions.
  • “We need to not only look at each of these dimensions, but start to recognize and systematically influence their interplays.” (09:57)

Technology: Not Neutral – Values and Intent Matter

• Reflects Designer and User Mindsets:
  • “We can't expect the technology of tomorrow to be better than the humans of today… garbage in, garbage out versus values in, values out.” (23:13)
• On Aspirational Algorithms and Prosocial AI:
  • “If we want good outcomes for humanity… we need to build that intent into the algorithm and into the design.” (23:13)
• Call for Broader Stakeholder Involvement:
  • “We cannot leave it in the hands of the private sector alone.” (23:13)

Amplified (Hybrid) Humanity: Human and AI Collaboration

• Beyond Cyborgs:
  • “To make the best out of our artificial tools, we need to have a holistic understanding of our natural tools.” (25:25)
  • Proposes "amplified humanity" via hybrid intelligence—complementing artificial and natural intelligence.

Technology’s Diverse Global Paths

• Anecdotes of Local Innovation:
  • Story of Turkish market vendor using phone translation:
    • “For him that was like, duh, obviously.” (28:32)
• Emergence of Localized AI:
  • Discusses Malaysia’s approach with the ILMU large language model as an alternative to Western tech dominance:
    • “...there is an alternative to mainstream and that can potentially also be a way to go beyond efficiency and effectiveness and lead with values, as the Prime Minister here has said very clearly.” (28:43–30:44)

Values in Technology: Micro, Meso, Macro, and Meta Levels

• Multi-level Values Model:
  • Micro (individual), Meso (community), Macro (country), Meta (planet).
  • Proposes the “four As”: Awareness, Appreciation, Acceptance, Accountability (37:44)
• Universal Value Starting Point:
  • The Golden Rule and Platinum Rule are proposed as universal ethical foundations.
    • “Do to others what you want to have done to yourself... consider that what the other person needs is not really what you need...” (37:44–40:10)
• Foundational Values:
  • “Curiosity, compassion, creativity and courage… are very helpful in our interplay with technology.” (41:12)

Critique of Economic-First AI and the Role of Moral Courage

• On the Dangers of Agency Decay:
  • “We’re currently navigating a very dangerous transition... to full blown addiction... That’s what I call the scale of agency decay.” (42:17)
• Need for Moral Courage:
  • “Moral courage sounds so grandiose, but it’s also moral courage to look ourselves into the face and to pull out the white elephants that we have shoed underneath the table because they are uncomfortable to look at.” (43:30)

Looking Forward: Hopeful Alternative Futures

• Two Scenarios:
  1. Emergence of countries pioneering pro social AI for the common good.
  2. Awakening to the magic and sufficiency of human life, perhaps even stepping back from technology.
  • “If we inject enough intent, [these] might come to fruition... Garbage in, garbage out. Values in, values out.” (44:23–46:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Luck and Human Frailty:
  • “Being at the right time at the right place is sometimes the only thing that matters... five minutes that you might spend... waiting for a bus... makes such a big difference.” (03:38)
• On Writing:
  • “I hate it. And every single time... in the middle of a book, I'm thinking, and why did I take this on?” (07:58)
• On Tech as Both Door and Wall:
  • "Everything that can become a door can also be a wall in the moment where you don't have the necessary tool to access it." (11:08)
• On Intent and AI:
  • “We can’t expect the technology of tomorrow to be better than the humans of today… We have a choice and we need to make it.” (23:13)
• On Universal Ethical Principles:
  • "The golden rule... and maybe the platinum rule... consider that what the other person needs is not really what you need..." (37:44–40:10)
• On Agency Decay:
  • “...a scale of agency decay... We might not realize what stage we're in until it is too late.” (42:17)
• On Alternative AI Futures:
  • “I hope... there will be one or maybe more countries that will emerge as pioneers that actually embrace pro social AI and show that an alternative path... is possible...” (44:23)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:06] – Cornelia C. Walther’s background and shift to academia
• [03:38] – Life and death in the humanitarian field: “five minutes” story
• [06:05] – Writing motivations and process
• [09:57] – The Posy paradigm explained (four human dimensions)
• [11:08–13:43] – COVID-19, technology as connector and divider
• [23:13] – Aspirational algorithms, pro social AI, values in/values out
• [25:25] – Amplified humanity and hybrid intelligence
• [28:32] – Turkish market anecdote: local adaptation of technology
• [30:44] – Discussion on Malaysia’s alternative AI development model
• [37:44] – Four As for individual and collective values
• [42:17] – Moral courage, agency decay, individual responsibility
• [44:23–46:22] – Two positive scenarios for the future with technology

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Tone and Language

The episode is insightful and reflective, matching the tone of thoughtful academic and humanitarian inquiry. Walther blends practical humanitarian anecdotes with deep, often philosophical critiques concerning technology and society, consistently emphasizing humility, individual responsibility, and collective well-being.

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Concluding Thoughts

Cornelia C. Walther’s perspective invites listeners to deeply consider the interplay between humanity and technology, emphasizing that human leadership and values must guide the development and deployment of technology. Her optimism for pro social AI and value-driven innovation is anchored in a belief that change begins from within and radiates outward through intentional action and collective agency.

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For more on Cornelia C. Walther’s work or to connect on pro social AI, she encourages listeners to reach out.

Transcript

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[New Books Network Announcer]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Nicholas McKay]

Hello, I'm Nicholas McKay. Welcome to the Liminal Library podcast hosted on the New Books Network. Today we are joined by Cornelia C. Walther. Cornelia is the author of several books, including a few we will Talk About Today Development and Connection in the time of COVID 19 technology, social change and Human Behavior and Human Leadership for Humane Technology. Welcome Cornelia.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Thank you for having me, Nicholas.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yes. So can you give us a brief introduction for our audience members who may not know who you are? Where do you come from, what have you been up to, and where are you now?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I have been working for 20 years with UNICEF around the world in humanitarian operations, then worked in headquarters and then decided it's time for radical change. Left wrote a bunch of books about social change via individual transformation, including starting in 2021, about aspirational algorithms and the potential of technology for positive social change at scale. So wrote a book about that in 2021 before ChatGPT became the name of every game, then became more interested in inspiring leadership, wrote about that and then have been from 2023 a senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania, in particular the school the Wharton Initiative for Neuroscience, where I'm now in addition, also a fellow at the McNulty Leadership Center. And presently I'm in Kuala Lumpur working at the the Sunway center for Planetary Health on Pro Social AI.

[Nicholas McKay]

Amazing.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And my next book that is coming out in the fall is also on Pro Social AI.

[Nicholas McKay]

Okay, well, it seems like you've had quite an eclectic journey. You've been on the edges of things. Can you tell me maybe one anecdote or cool favorite story while working in UNICEF or, you know, these kind of food pro the humanitarian world? Do you have like a favorite story or an anecdote?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I think the whole journey of 20 years is this organically evolving kaleidoscope where every single place is its own cluster of interwoven stories. There is one story which maybe sticks out just because it was such an acute reminder that being at the right time at the right place is sometimes the only thing that matters. And so I arrived. I was at an internal trip in Kandahar, which is one of the provinces in Afghanistan. And I remember I arrive at the airport and the driver picks me up and says, oh, but we can't leave now. We have to wait because the road between the airport and the city is blocked because there has been an attack, because there has just been a car bomb that has gone off. And now it happened to happen at that day that my train had been. My. My plane had been late. So had I arrived in time, we would have driven just that road at the time where the car bomb went off. So it's basically like five minutes that made the difference. Yeah, five minutes that you might spend on another day in another place waiting for a bus, being annoyed that something is late, or five minutes that you might be late and you miss your train. But so it's sometimes these minute aspect that makes such a big difference.

[Nicholas McKay]

That's a way. Well put, well put. Because the little things in life and how the interconnectedness and interdependencies. I like that. So when I. When I think about this, you have an interesting story because one of the things that I've noticed is like, you've kind of switched into academia from being. In the practical sense. Why, why is that? Why were. Why were you so keen on making the switch from, like, being in a humanitarian world to the academia switch? Usually it seems like people want more practical experience from the academic world, and then they go get the practical experience. And so, like, how. How did you make that switch? Why did you make that switch?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

So I wouldn't really consider it as a switch. I did my two masters In a university in France, very much at the beginning. And then, however, my master's were in humanitarian assistance and that then set me on the path to go to Africa. And then one, one employment just led to the other one. However, after 10 years in the field, I did my PhD whilst working in Congo with UNICEF with a university in France. So in sense, if you like, I did that PhD. However, I did not want to do a PhD immediately in continuation of my studies because I felt that I don't have anything new to contribute. I can just regurgitate what I'm reading in books and I did not feel much added value to that. And so somehow, after having done those 20 years in the field and, and the Ph.D. and remaining very much intrigued by the questions that I had raised in that PhD, it seemed like again, this organic continuum where one piece is just building onto the others.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah, no, that's well put. And so when you did, did you have any writing inspirations? Did you have any people that like, you kind of looked up to or thought that you wanted to kind of emulate? Or was this kind of more, as you said, this organic process that you found out that you liked writing or better at it, et cetera? Because it seems like you're quite prolific in your output nowadays, being a contributor with Forbes.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

So the straightforward answer is I did not really have any. Anybody to. To look out to or to to think. This is the kind of writer that I want to emulate. Besides, I don't consider myself as a writer, nor do I consider myself as an academic, I must admit. And I don't like writing also, to be very transparent about that, I hate it. And every single time when I'm once again in the middle of a book, I'm thinking, and why did I take this on? It's now really not necessary. And I think the reason why I'm doing it, and I just accepted another contract, is simply that it helps me to discipline my own thinking and that it forces me to chew the way my brain processes information and that it. Yeah, that you're just canalized to focus. And especially nowadays when there's so much abundance of everything, of information, of inputs, of tools, of channels. I find that very helpful.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yep, it's very. Because I, I've. I've had that happen with some essays of mine of just like thinking and then once you distill it, it helps you out to think through it. So let's, let's kind of go through. One of the first ones that you did was development and connection in the time of COVID 19, or at least when I, when I saw this. And you basically talk about how there's a deep interconnectedness, but also deep inequalities, this kind of double edged sword. Can you tell us how like the pandemic, like really showed how technology connected us? You know, Zoom calls digital platforms, but also expose who gets left behind in the digital divides. What, what was kind of your process when thinking about this book? And then what was your kind of what core idea, et cetera?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Yeah, thank you for that. A couple of things. So a, this was the third book. So first one was just to establish a solid scientific foundation about social change. Starts from the inside out, which for me is kind of the basic principle of everything, if we think about social transformation. And so that book led to a second one that applied this interconnected logic to institutions. And all of it was anchored in the Posey paradigm, which looks at human existence as a composition of twice four dimensions, with aspirations, emotions, thoughts and sensations at the individual level, and individuals as part of communities, countries and the planet at the collective level. And that if you want to bring about sustainable social change or individual transformation, we need to not only look at each of these dimensions, but start to recognize and systematically influence their interplays.

[Nicholas McKay]

Nice.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And that was for me the answer to. And that comes back to your previous question about my PhD, which was about making the responsibility for children's rights come true, which is not enough to just write it into the laws, but we need to move beyond telling people what they have to do towards making them want to do it. And so this whole cluster of thought, if you like, is the underpinning that I took into the COVID book. And the COVID pandemic for me was another big impulse to think that if we want to take society to a better place, then we need to look beyond the world as a patchwork and people as checklists towards seeing the bigger picture and starting to connect the dots. And to your question on connected versus Isolated, I think in many ways technology has shown that access can be accessible or can be made, or tools can be made available to everyone, everywhere. But the flip side of that is that you need to lower the entry threshold, because everything that can become a door can also be a wall in the moment where you don't have the necessary tool to access it. So what I mean by that is, for example, the Internet can be an amazing tool for, for somebody who cannot leave their house, for example, an elderly person, to get to order medicine, to order food, to have entertainment, to speak to loved ones, to get information, all of that amazing 24. 7 free door. But in the moment where the person either does not have a computer or. Or doesn't have Internet or simply does not have the skills or the familiarity, that door might just as well be a glass wall.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And I think Covid has made that very, very clear.

[Nicholas McKay]

And then, so you say, when in a lot of this stuff is design principles or basically is that it reflects the mindset of those who design and use the technology. After Covid, can we talk about how people felt, I guess you could say, with social media, Felt for mostly connected to everyone and everywhere, but then also felt very isolated. I think that's one thing that. That I think technology is interesting in that, like today's day and age, there's a lot of research, like Jonathan Haidt's book about, you know, isolation with teenagers and mental health, et cetera. What are your thoughts on how Covid has changed our perspective till now? Because now it's five years after you wrote the book. Has your perspective changed at all or is it more. The more the same of. It's just stronger the case that we were isolated but then connected at the same time.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Yeah, I think it's still the same very much. And maybe it's sharpening more and more, also because our bubbles are becoming smaller and also because we're retrenching ever more into it.

[Nicholas McKay]

Mm.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

So, yeah, I. I would say that that phenomenon is not getting better. It's not going away.

[Nicholas McKay]

Right.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Yeah.

[Nicholas McKay]

Well, let's go back to your pose. The. The pose paradigm. So together we pursue perspective to life, optimization of living zenith throughout life, exposure to life as it is. So can you kind of break down that as a little bit? You. You briefly mentioned it a second ago. The four human dimensions, aspirations, emotions, thoughts, and. But when the crisis hits, don't governments and institutions and tech companies have a lot more. They decide what matters most, not regular people. How do you kind of talk or think about that with the pose framework or posed paradigm, if you will. Yeah, Posy. Sorry, sorry, sorry. You tell me how to pronounce it.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

It's posi, and it stands for peace in Haitian Creole, where I initially prototyped it.

[Nicholas McKay]

Okay.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And I think if we take what's happening or what has been happening with the isolation versus the access piece and link it to the four dimensions. So if you break it down into soul, heart, mind, body. The soul is this quest for a meaning. The heart is the emotional, relational piece. The thought is making rational sense of your environment. And the body or the behavior is the physical interplay with the world. Now, the aspirational piece, this quest for a why, something that matters to us individually and collectively as a species is I think, that compass that is drawing us forward and that is maybe the star that guides every life. And in that sense, I think it's also what is driving us to engage in whatever activity it is. And I think that's maybe what's missing the most in a lot of modern technology that we're looking for something that we're never going to find. Because the quest for a meaning is not something that you can delegate to a ChatGPT, but it's something that you need to search through the uncomfortable answers that only you yourself can give. The emotional piece, again, we might look for it on social media platforms, but the emotional connection to another human being is something that technology cannot replace. The thought aspect. Well, thinking is thinking and I very much like the distinction between NI and AI. So natural intelligence and artificial intelligence. And natural intelligence is just this multidimensional composition. And it's yes, AI can simulate it, but that's exactly that. It's a simulation. It's not more, it's not less. And the physical interplay is our sensorial contact or our interface with the world. And technology is not going to replace that. So.

[Nicholas McKay]

But technology, you said, go ahead. Well, technology, you can say that it optimized human capacities, but then. But how can we decide who gets optimal, I guess you could say, or optimal for whom? That's, I guess my biggest question is when you talk about access to tool technology and then the adage of like the wall, I think that's a brilliant analogy because then it shows how different, just little components, just switching little things can, can make things accessible or not. So when you, how do you optimize for human capacities through technology? And was Covid one of those instances where we saw it, we were going down the wrong, wrong road, I guess you could say, in that optimizing for human capacity.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I don't think we went down the wrong path. I think humanity keeps on learning, right? And Covid was in a way, another stage. And I would argue that the current generative AI era has been made possible because of the COVID flush towards the Internet and towards the online era. Because think about the dramatic increase in people who all of a sudden had no other way but to use the Internet and the data that derived from that. I'm pretty certain that this flush in data has vastly accelerated the training of the models that then led to the rise of ChatGPT and other large language models in 2022.

[Nicholas McKay]

That's very good point. Very good point. Go ahead.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

So yeah, I think we can't really think about it was a mistake at the time the way technology was handled during COVID we I think humans just didn't know what they know today, right?

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[Nicholas McKay]

Very, very well put. So after this, the second book I wanted to talk to you about is Technology, Social Change and human behavior in 20 was this right after the COVID one. Okay, okay. And then so basically I. I thought from this or got from this, that technology isn't good or bad on its own, and it's not neither neutral. Right. It reflects the mindset of those who design and use it. And then can you talk about how you introduce aspirational algorithms and then kind of bring out that to, you know, kind of thought thoughts?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Yeah, thank you. Aspirational algorithms basically comes back to the fact that is also very much underpinning what I'm currently doing in terms of pro social AI, which is that intent matters and that we can't expect the technology of tomorrow to be better than the humans of today. So basically the old MIT saying, garbage in, garbage out versus values in, values out. We have a choice and we need to make it. And that seems so obvious and so simple, but I think it's falling a bit between the cracks of our current AI excitement, but also the hype around the doom and gloom. And if we want good outcomes for humanity, but then we need to build that intent into the algorithm and into the design. And if we are honest, then the first, second and third industrial revolution and the technologies that came out of them were driven by commercial interests. Well, I would argue we can't leave it at that. And in particular in this fourth industrial revolution, which has such dramatic impact not only on our infrastructure and our society, but also on what makes us human. On the way think, on the way we make decisions, on the way we interact with each other, and on the way in which we interact with ourselves, that we cannot leave it in the hands of the private sector alone.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah. And then, so when you talk about shifting from an AI culture to like an augmented humanity, how do you envision this? Because, like, when I think about augmented humanity, I think that we're already kind of cyborgs with our phones or, you know, the blurring of humanity. And machine is already getting there with, you know, if my grandmother gets a hip replacement, you know, that, well, that's a titanium hip instead of a bone, you know, and so, like, that's an augmented human. But when we talk about this. How are you talking about an augmented humanity?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I would. In the meantime, I have been thinking, and I would say it's amplified humanity because, okay, this hybrid intelligence cluster that I'm currently working on, it looks at the deliberate complementarity of AI and Ni so artificial and natural intelligence. And I would argue that to make the best out of our artificial tools, we need to have a holistic understanding of our natural tools. And that means to really come to amplified humanity, we first need to take a step back and actually look that humanity in and by itself into the face what makes us humans, who are we, both individually and as a species. And to recognize also the uncomfortable components in that, our quirks and caveats on what makes us unique as human beings. And once we have seen that, then in consequence, we can harness the technology not as a replacement, but in an alliance.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah. And then so when you, when you've kind of traveled across all of your travels and experiences, how did kind of local communities like own their own tech technology and, and kind of challenge Western assumptions about development? Because I think that's one of the interesting things that I'm maybe if you have any anecdotes or stories about how local communities use their own technology. Right, because I'm assuming the cultural differences across the world are vast and how people use technology in some ways, but then maybe they, they have through lines in how they use it as well. What are your thoughts on that?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I think again, there's like this tapestry of anecdotes, but maybe two. So a, a couple of years ago, I think 10 years ago or something, I went to Turkey and I was in a small market in Ankara. And coming with the Western perspective, the hopeful understanding that somebody would speak English, but in the middle of Turkey in a small market, even if it's a big city like Ankara, not happening. But. So I went into that shop and tried to understand what that nut was that they were offering. And the gentleman looks at me, listens to me, smiles, pulls out his phone, holds it over to me and speaks into it. And there comes in polished English, hello, what would you like? And so we came without much understanding of each other's languages to a very fluent conversation.

[Nicholas McKay]

That's awesome.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

But I did not make that connection that, yeah, obviously I have my translator in my phone, but for him that was like, duh, obviously.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah, of course.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And the other thing, and that's now various years later, but I'm currently in Malaysia, in Kuala Lumpur, and I was last week at the ASEAN AI Summit and I was very positively impressed that there is this huge desire and potential to, to walk an alternative path to AI. Maybe you saw my article on Forbes on that topic. I think there is a beautiful possibility over here to not follow the US model, which is private sector first, nor is it the EU model which is customer and privacy first, nor even the Swiss model with public goods AI. But it's really seemingly the possibility of a force path that is emerging and in that sense I find it very encouraging that it does not have to be a one size fits all and just because there are a couple of big companies, OpenAI, Google, Microsoft and others, but that there is an alternative to it. And for example in Malaysia they launched last week their homegrown, so to say large language model, which I find a fantastic illustration of the fact that there is an alternative to mainstream and that can potentially also be a way to go beyond efficiency and effectiveness and lead with values, as the Prime Minister here has said very clearly. So yeah, let's see where it goes.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah, I really like that, the alternative paths and the alternative futures aspect, I think that's really interesting. But as we know that the market and first mover principles and things are powerful as well, but there's, there's, there's forces happening on, on all sides. If we could talk about, I think when, when, when I was reading some of the stuff I came across like a new kind of principle or like a new tech that of like a Hippocratic oath for coders or engineer principles or like guilds and things of how they kind of create a culture of what it means to then utilize technology, say to serve a common good. Is there, is there like mandate that you would be wanting to utilize for, for all new tech? Or is it more you have to empower people first to then deal with the tech and maybe you can take that question however you want.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

So two things on that. I would argue that the ambition towards pro social AI should be a very adamant one, which basically refers to AI systems that are tailored, trained, tested and targeted to bring out the best in and for people and planet. So we need to build that ambition into our AI systems deliberately not expected as an outcome just because it happens, but to really bake it into the algorithm. That's number one. That however requires agency so the ability and the volition to take autonomous action and to not just be driven by the mainstream dynamics. That then requires hybrid intelligence, which is as I mentioned before, this complementarity of AI and ni and that requires double literacy. So a holistic understanding of ourself and society, people and planet. I would call that human literacy. And on the other hand algorithmic literacy. Not just what's the latest tool, but also how it works and why and what its limitations are. So that's number one. I think this is the underpinning that we should build systematically into any kind of discourse about what we want in terms of technological ambition. And the other aspect, and that's coming back to what kind of intent do we want our, our AI to look forward? And I think it should be regenerative intent. Because something that is very important to recognize is the fact that we have only one planet. And while there might be some plans for people to go to Mars, I don't think that it's very promising to put our eggs into the Mars pack. And if humanity continues on Mars the way it has done on planet Earth, then that will not be a sustainable strategy either. So that being said, I think regenerative intent is something that is, that is really important. One thing that I wanted to add on this aspect of how people around the world are using technology, I think something that is really, really important to remember when we are in this discussion is the fact that even though there are millions and millions who are using ChatGPT and AI and whatever else is out there, there are a couple of billions who are struggling to have clean water, electricity and food. So I think it is very important that when we're talking about digital divides, then that is also part of why that divide exists, because there are billions of people who are struggling to survive on the basic necessities. And whilst we're getting excited about our latest gadgets, actually those gadgets are tiny fractions of what are actually needed to make society better and humanity a fairer place.

[Nicholas McKay]

And you mentioned how AI is kind of a mirror of that society. So if we are going towards this kind of, or still have a society that millions are still in want, billions are still in want, then how do we kind of claw back some of that agency? Because you say values in, values out, and I love that vivo, I really enjoy that. And again, like an STS or in science and technology studies, value, you know, has a big way in design, value centered design, etc. When we think about values though, it's not just one particular person's values or a culture's values you go through in your next book, technology, human Leadership for Humane, humane technology and really talk about the individuals, the micro, the communities, meso countries, macro and the planet meta in a collective sphere. I think that's really interesting to then, you know, diagram it like that. But what are the effective ways in each, in each level to really understand the values in and values out? Because it seems to me that there has to be a comprehensive understanding of not only the values, but then agreement of some of those values. At any of those levels. So how, how do you get the values in, values out, concept? But then we have so many values.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Around, I guess, yeah, so sometimes, I guess it starts small and then you can have the ripple effect. And that's why the micro meso macro and meta logic, I think, can be helpful. And coming back to what we said at the beginning, everything starts from the inside out and everything starts from the individual and then percolates into the communities that they are part of, the countries that they are part of, and the planet that we all belong to. And in that sense, maybe the four A's can be helpful, which is awareness for us as individuals, what our own values are, what matters to us, appreciation of what makes us unique as human beings, acceptance of the limitations and accountability for the outcomes.

[Nicholas McKay]

Nice.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And this sounds now very, very basic and simple, but I think if we have that understanding at the individual level, then that is building the foundation of a different community understanding, and that percolates forward. Now, if we take that into the AI space, then this is the first point of departure of how we want to frame the dialogue around AI, because you first need to recognize what's the human side in the equation to then tackle the AI side. Now, when it comes to core values, I agree with you. There are universal values that might be different everywhere else. There maybe is one, one value that has found entry into belief systems around the world. And that is the golden rule. Do to others what you want to have done to yourself, and don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. And then maybe what came after the platinum rule, which is to consider that what the other person needs is not really what you need, and what you desire is not really what the other person wants. And I think that rule is maybe the most precious that we should consider when we think about AI systems, that we recognize that what our perspective is is not the one and only. And that's maybe also where AI can become really useful, if we train it accordingly, that it can become not just a language translator, as the example that I gave before, but a mindset TR translator. But for that, the AI must also be trained and tailored on a variety of inputs. Because if it's only trained by Western engineers who are in their mid-20s, white male, and coming from a Western culture, well, then the algorithms, and that is shown now already will be biased.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yep, 100%.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

But if we can come with culturally trained models, like the ILMU model that I mentioned before here in Malay, that was fully trained on Local language, which means language, also culture, then maybe there we have a possibility to have our cultural translator in the pocket. But all of that being said, the golden rule. And I listed four values that I think could be helpful as a point of departure in this whole value reflection, which are curiosity, compassion, creativity and courage. Now, they are certainly debatable and there are others, but what I found is that they are very helpful in our interplay with technology.

[Nicholas McKay]

It's well said. And then. But so you critique leaving AI in these purely economic spaces. And there's been a lot of, you know, kerfuffle and media headlines about, you know, poaching and how much economic, you know, stuff is going into AI. I really enjoy how you're talking about bringing AI out of these purely economic spaces and embedding it into these cultures. But then you recently wrote a piece, why Moral Courage Matters. Can you talk a little bit about that, about the individual? And why even in these moments of crises, but then also moments of stagnation, it really is going to take individuals with moral courage to stand up to some of these systems that maybe are going to, as you say, get us closer to, quote, unquote, agency decay. You know, I think there's an interesting through line there that, you know, the moral courage of individuals standing up to, you know, an unaccountability machine, as they say. Dan Davies quoted that is, is interesting. So, like, what, what do you think about that?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I think that we're currently navigating a very dangerous transition where we're moving on to experimenting with AI, towards integrating AI, towards relying on AI, towards full blown addiction. And that's what I call the scale of agency decay. And that is a very slow, but at the same time fast transition. And we might not realize what stage we're in until it is too late. And let's face it, the human being is lazy and I take myself first. We like to walk the path of least resistance. And if we can avoid effort in a particular cognitive effort, then we embrace every single opportunity. And in that sense, I think moral courage sounds so grandiose, but it's also moral courage to look ourselves into the face and to pull out the white elephants that we have shoed underneath the table because they are uncomfortable to look at.

[Nicholas McKay]

Yeah, true.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

And it's that uncomfortable looking into the mirror and facing our own dark spots that is maybe the first, the first step to a better, bigger picture.

[Nicholas McKay]

And when did, what do you say? What do you, I guess as the last question, where do you foresee this kind of going? Because I really enjoy your, your kind of fourth pass, this Malaysia's quiet AI revolution because you kind of gave this comparative analysis between the eu, the us, China and the Swiss, like in these dominant models. But then there's this other Malaysia has this AI revolution. What do you see? The. I mean, you don't have to tell me exactly what your thoughts are, but put on your futuristic caps or your futurist cap. What is that? What does the next five years look like for us in your kind of thought process?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

I hope so. I have, at the end of the new book I have actually two scenarios, but that would. But I hope that there will be one or maybe more countries that will emerge as pioneers that actually embrace pro social AI and show that an alternative path to the efficiency and effectiveness mill is possible and that one size does not fit all and that actually we can harness as a force for social good that helps people and planet to come to this possibility of abundance that is at reach and where once again we're given the tools to make that happen for a maximum of people. So that's one very positive scenario. The other positive scenario is very different. And that might be that we just step back from technology and that in a couple of years down the line there is an awakening to the fact that life is magic in and by itself. We don't need technology to make it more exciting, actually just really opening our eyes and seeing and experiencing the world with those four dimensions, with our aspirational, emotional, intellectual and sensorial capacities. 360 degree is enough magic for a lifetime. So I'm an optimist. I hope that one of those scenarios, if we inject enough intent, might come to fruition. Is not going to happen. No. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Nicholas McKay]

Values in, values out, Values in, values out. Well said. Is there anything else you'd like to say in closing, Cornelia?

[Cornelia C. Walther]

No. Thank you very much for the opportunity and I hope whoever listens to this and is interested to move towards the direction of pro social AI, feel free to reach out.

[Nicholas McKay]

Well, thanks for coming on Liminal Library, Cornelia. I really appreciate it.

[Cornelia C. Walther]

Real pleasure, Nicholas. Thank you for having me.

[Nicholas McKay]

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