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- [00:00]
A
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
B
Hello, and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I'm very pleased today to be speaking with Dr. Ignacio Sanchez Prado about his book titled Taco, published by Bloomsbury in 2025 as part of the Object Lesson series. And really the book does exactly what you'd expect, giving us a deep dive into an incredibly iconic food. In fact, that's probably something we're going to talk about. Why is it so prevalent? Why is it so iconic? What are some of the variations in different places? The book is, as I said, part of the Object Lesson series. So it's not 800 pages. It's in fact, almost hand sized. I mean, my hands are small, but there's so much packed into it, kind of in some ways like a taco. So I think we've got a lot to discuss. Nacho, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [01:57]
C
Thank you for having me.
- [01:59]
B
Could we start off with you introducing yourself a little bit and then tell us why you decided to write an Object Lessons book and on tacos?
- [02:07]
C
Yes. So I'm a professor of Mexican Studies at Washington University in St. Louis, where I've been for almost 20 years. My research covers literature, cinema and art and other forms of culture. More broadly. So the gastronomy studies in my work is sort of an arrival point after many years. I think that I like it because I like process and I like the study of material, social life. And food is a very good instrument for both. You can study objects in their histories, in the way they're used in everyday life, right in the way we load them with signification. So Foodstuys is very exciting in that regard. I started writing a couple essays about people who have a very good, strong presence in the Mexican culinary world, like Enrico Olvera and Diana Kennedy. And at some point I wanted to write this book. I did not want it to be like a monograph because I think that most scholars of Mexico would know what I'm saying. Right. I wanted to be able to be something for readers. So I came up with the Object Lesson series. And it so happened that when I was going to pitch, the two editors, Chris Schaberg and Ian Bost, were having succession by Washu by my institution. So I had to wait until all of that was done. But in the end I approached them and I decided to do it. And because of this confluence of circumstances, I have to say that the series is not only edited now by Juana and my colleagues, but also Washington University has provided some support to the Object Lexion series on the side. I also have a working relationship with Bloomsbury, so this is my third book with the press. So I think it was just a good alignment of circumstances to write about something that I wanted to write in a series that has a lot of projection, but also with people that I have worked with very comfortably for many years.
- [04:13]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of reasons, clearly, to be part of the series. And I think all of your points about food and the things it lets us investigate are really well taken. But of course, food is a really big topic. So why tacos?
- [04:27]
C
I mean, I think that is an interesting object because it's invested with the idea of very, very Mexican. And at the same time, you go to the US and there are tacos that are very common in the US but they don't exist in Mexico. It is also true that the taco is not one object, but there are many things that are called tacos. So that allows me to think of the taco as a social object. The other thing is one has a lot of common sense ideas about things, and I like to go against that. I like to really test whether the common sense ideas are true. So tacos are not pre Columbian, for example, which many people believe they are. Tacos are not. There is no such thing as an authentic taco, which is something that I strongly write about in the book, but rather there are varieties of tacos that have differing histories. So it allows me to challenge the ways in which people approach food in an accessible form, but also being able to track some of the histories that challenge accepted, received notions.
- [05:42]
B
So this is something I loved about the book because I'm always fascinated by books that do myth busting, right? Take things we think we know and go. Hang on a second.
- [05:50]
A
Right.
- [05:51]
B
So I'd love to pick up on both of those myths you just mentioned there. The first one about being pre Columbian. What is the myth and what's the actual story of the origins of tacos?
- [06:01]
C
So the tortilla is a pre Columbian food, right. And there is no question that people write stuff in them back since time immemorial, like any flatbread from any culture around the world. But the thing is that there is no indication, and I here build on the work of historians like Jeffrey Pilcher and people like the Chicano writer David Bose, who had done legwork on this. We don't know of any word in Nahuatl before the 19th century that actually called a food wrapped in a tortilla, something. The vocabularies in Nahuatl don't appear to have any such word. So if you wrap a food in a tortilla, it's only a taco if you have a social concept of the taco. Jeffrey Pilcher, who I think has the most rigorous work on the matter, argues that it probably originated with minor communities in the 19th century. And for those who are speakers of English, the word taco in Spanish means cylinder, is a word used for a number of cylindrical objects. So the word that navigates the object is in Spanish, which led us to believe that the people who made the food were Spanish speakers. And in fact, the taquasa food is not really prevalent until the rest of cities in the 20th century. So it is more of a modern food. And to me, that is really the onus of the book, is to say it's a food that rises with modernity. So whenever you are tying it to pre Columbian identities or ancestrality or indigeneity, you are missing the point of a food that really has to do more with urban life. Even if you look at the GIS map that the geographer Baruch Sankhines did of taquerias, the taquerias are concentrated in urban areas.
- [07:58]
B
And that's not a coincidence. Right? Let's make sure we don't sort of fall into another trap of just, well, modern. That kind of means recent. Right. There's a reason tacos show up in the 19th and 20th century. What's going on sort of technologically and with urbanization that makes them so prevalent.
- [08:15]
C
So it's a confluence of two things. I think that on the one hand, urbanization and industrialization create the need of portable foods, which is a phenomenon that happens all over the world. And street food economies emerge. Right. So that means that people really want it on the go. And you know, as someone who grew up in Mexico City, most of the tacos I ate when I was a teenager was commuting in the subway. Outside the subway stations you have stands. But it's not, it's not only tacos. That's another thing that we have to challenge. You can buy hot dogs and burgers and sandwiches and, you know, marucha noodle soups with like lime and chili sauce. So it's part of an ecosystem of portability. But the other thing is making tortillas by hand is very laborious. You need to nixtamalize corn, you need to grind it. You need to grind it right. You need to know how to cook it. So we would not have tacos as a prevalent modern food without an automatization of these processes. So the emergence of a mechanized nixtamal meal and then followed by a machine that actually shapes and cooks the tortillas in mass work, essential conditions for the taquerias to be viable businesses. Because you cannot have this process by hand unless your tacos are very expensive.
- [09:38]
B
Yeah, those are definitely two key elements there. But I want to stop in that kind of just outside the subway for a moment because you write about it so evocatively in the book. And along with the range of different foods available, as you've mentioned, there's also a range of different tacos. And not just sort of this seller does that or that one. You talk in the book that there's sort of a variation throughout the course of the day. So can you give us a sense of kind of what are morning tacos, afternoon tacos? Like what are the options here?
- [10:07]
C
Yes. So you have to think the fact that tacos are either street food or they are a casual food. They're not as prevalent in our main meal. The main meal in Mexico is from 2 to 4pm and if you do it in a sit down place, it will be a three to four course meal. And tacos are not in that. And I think that one of the stereotypes that I implicitly try to poke is we don't only eat tacos. Right. In most places in Mexico, tacos is not even the most important food. And if you ask a Mexican what is the most Mexican of us, you are more likely to get mole as an answer than tacos. But in any case, tacos, the feeling of the taco has to do with both the function of the taco, the time of the day, in the morning, a lot of protein, heavy tacos like carnitas. You don't really want to eat at taco de carnitas at like 2 in the morning because you wouldn't sleep. Some taquerias only open from 6pm to 6am they tend to have their peak of business between midnight and three in the morning. They tend to be smaller tacos, but the taco al pastor very much exists in that. And you know these are not like written in stone. Right. You can basically find everything at any time in such a bustling city. There are tacos de guisado. Guisados are our main courses. And if you have that three course meal, the guisado will be the centerpiece of that. But essentially by putting it in two tortillas, the portaville, it makes them portable, but those are endless. Right. And those tend to be midday tacos for people who don't have a long time to sit down and have that meal. So they just go out and basically the same thing wrapped into tortillas.
- [11:54]
B
Yeah. It's all very practical when you explain it that way. You know, making sure you can sleep, making sure you can have lunch.
- [11:59]
C
So you see that it is all about the social practice of the taco. What defines which tacos, at what time, what are they, how are they prepared? It's all about the complexity of the social place where they're prepared and consumed. It makes a difference if it's a restaurant, if it's in the street, if it's an upper or lower class restaurant. Right. All of the elements of the taco change in such a way that that's how you account for the diversity. The diversity is a matter of social uses.
- [12:31]
B
Yeah, no, of course it is. We're all human and that's how we interact. And the other myth you mentioned earlier, I want to make sure we don't forget, which is the idea of authenticity, which is something you pick up a number of times in the book. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?
- [12:45]
C
So when you migrate to the US from Mexico, like I did 25 years ago, you are confronted with the no. With a Mexican food that is unrecognizable. And nevertheless it's very prominent, not only in the US but in the rest of the world. So you think about the chain Taco Bell. They sell with Mexican names like Chalupa Taco and so Gordir and so on. Fruits that are completely different than the fruits with the same name in Mexico, including the Harshell Taco, which I describe in the book. Then you go to. I went to Norway, and that's the taco that people in Norway know, because the corporations of the US have the ability to bring that, whereas there is not a diaspora that brings sort of the Mexican versions of Mexican food. So it's very easy to try to claim authenticity, right. And say this is not authentic Mexican food until you trace the history. And even the most processed and industrialized Taco Bell product has origins in the migration of Mexicans because tortillas were fried and are fried insofar as the access to fresh mass is limited. So if you want to distill a tortilla, what you do is fry it. They have cheddar cheese and canned black olives and things that you won't put in attack with Mexico because you can start thinking that maybe those are the foods that you get through welfare and food stamps. Right? So I always say, who are we to judge that? And the other thing is that there is a very problematic use of authenticity from Mexico because it has been deployed historically to demean the Mexican diaspora as less Mexican than us. And I think that we're at a point where we have to stop doing that. We have to really recognize that Mexicanidad belongs to this very large diaspora as much as it belongs to those of us born in the territory, that those divisions are discriminatory. And therefore the Mexican food from the US has to be thought as a regional food that is naturally going to be different because it has a different supply chain, a different set of social conditions. And then you can, on top of that, judge whether it's good or bad. So I like Harshell Tacos, but I don't like Taco Bell. Right. So you can make that distinction. And I also add, besides the diaspora, there are non Mexican chefs around the world that embrace Mexican food in the US have this chef called Rick Bayless who has restaurants in Chicago. One of my controversial opinions is I think his restaurants are the best Mexican restaurants in Chicago because he goes and does research and he brings his team. This is a white man from Oklahoma who just studied linguistic anthropology and then went to Mexico and learned about it. Why not? Right? This multicultural possessiveness is problematic too, because I think that there is such a thing as stealing. And again, Taco Bell was stealing because the founder, Glenn Bell, went to a Mexican restaurant and then appropriated that recipe. But someone who actually does the homework, I don't think that is the same level of value. And I think that we had to really confront the objects that we have with a more aesthetic and quality judgment without getting so caught up on the origin of them.
- [16:01]
B
Yeah, no, that definitely makes a lot of sense and can be applied, as you mentioned, to the kind of hard shell tacos. But another regional difference that you talk about in the book is between flour or corn tortillas. So can we add that to our discussion?
- [16:16]
C
There is this nonsense idea from people who are from Mesoamerica, Mesoamerica, meaning mid Mexico, all the way to Central America, that somehow the col tortilla is more authentic than the flour tortilla. In northern Mexico they grow wheat, which was brought by the Spanish. Right. So there's an authenticity, meaning that corn is from the Americas and wheat is from the Old World. Right. But also corn is believed to be this indigenous food, whereas wheat is not. So that. And when migrants came from Mexico to the U.S. northern migrants came first. So the flora tortilla was adopted earlier than the corn tortilla. But it is mistaken because again, it is a supply chain matter. If they have flour tortillas because they have wheat and they make tacos with that, why are we going to police that? Right. They can be good too. I think they can be excellent with certain kinds of foods. So in the book I bring this restaurant that is in Mexico City called Latonina, which was founded by a northern Mexican wrestler who was nostalgic for the food. And they made the flora tortillas by hand and they filled them with northern Mexican guisados and they're absolutely exceptional. And to me, that's the kind of thing that I don't wanna validate any kind of claim that somehow those of us from Central Mexic are more Mexican than northern Mexicans, because that's a ridiculous thing to say.
- [17:47]
B
Yeah, and it goes back to your claims earlier around, kind of hang on, what's going on with this authenticity discourse and actually where we might want to shift our thinking and attention instead. And so I wonder if one of the places maybe we do want to talk about more when it comes to tacos is less this question of who gets to decide what's authentic and instead look at some of These things around gentrification and kind of class and economic change, that maybe isn't what we usually talk about with tacos. Why should it be?
- [18:16]
C
The amplification is a very complicated matter in food. There is this assortment of restaurants and taquerias popping up in Mexico, especially Mexico City. And I'm sorry to go back to Mexico City, but I ground myself in place because that's where I'm from. It does have a problem that I do, disclosing the world, which is Mexico is a centralist country and Mexico City, sometimes it raises other parts of Mexico. So I don't want it to be read that way. But in any case, Mexican food is cool. Mexico City is full of migrants, middle and upper class migrants who come live in Mexico because it's a cool city, right? That means that neighborhoods are becoming expensive, rents are rising. Airbnb has destroyed the rental market for many Mexicans and that affects the food because all this trend of global fine dining and all of these expectations of Mexicanida from the new migrants change the culinary landscape. If you go to the new taquerias, what they do is that instead of using industrial corn, they use harum corn. That is sort of the non GMO corn. And there's a whole politics of that that we can discuss in a minute, if you wish. They cook very high end things, but Instead of paying 10 Mexican pesos, which are like 20 cents for a taco, you are paying 100, right? This is a complicated issue because there is displacement, no question about that. And at the same time, one of the most important political causes in Mexico is the preservation of peasant economies when the onslaught of agribusiness. And it so happens that this gentrified economy has created in turn an economy to sustain traditional production because it can be paid at a premium that allows peasants and traditional producers to not have to participate in the agro business market at a disadvantage. Right? So there is this thing where this, on the one hand, people are being displaced by this and on the other hand is preventing displacement in another place. So to me, what we have to do is we have to grasp that contradiction rather than making sort of a moral judgment in either direction. The food is great, the politics behind it are, you know, ambiguous. And I think that as people who aspire to have a critical relationship with the world, this kind of quick jump, social media esque moral judgment doesn't allow you to think this phenomena. So I am against gentrification as a displacement, but I'm also in favor of the valuing of traditional products in a way that allows people who carry them forward to make a living.
- [21:08]
B
When we talk about traditional products, you mentioned the sort of heirloom corn aspect, and in the book you talk more about indigenous food ways. Do we want to discuss that a bit?
- [21:17]
C
Yes. So heirloom corn is actually not quite a product of nature. It was developed by indigenous peoples in Mesoamerica in many, many centuries ago when, through selection and agriculture, you know, what we now call generic engineering. They developed a nutritious crop out of grass. If you grow these, like the potatoes in the Andes, if you grow them without any kind of interference, they tend to develop into various species that have different nutritional qualities. When the green revolution came back in the 1960s, the Mexican state participated in this industrialization of masa, which also required the mass production of homogeneous corn in order to sustain that as a staple. And this is where you have to be careful, right? Because corn is a staple, because we have agro business and I think Mexico would suffer nutritionally without a degree of agribusiness and technologization. So we don't have. That's where we have. It's murky, right? At the same time, especially after winter nafta, there is a mass production of corn in the Midwest of the US that is conducted with patented seeds by companies like Bayer, which was formerly Monsanto, including forms of maize that are grown, for instance, for corn syrup. So they have more sugar. Right. And they don't have the same nutritional qualities of the corn that is eaten as a vegetable in Mexico. So the heirloom corn matter right now is political because the government of Mexico has elevated the prohibition of GMOs to the Constitution. And it is not playing out in the World Trade Organization as a controversy with Canada and the U.S. because they want to flood our market with their low quality corn, which, for instance, has contributed to the rise of diabetes in Mexico. I would like to recommend Gerardo Terro's the Neoliberal Diet and Alicia Galvez, NAFTA sources for this discussion. But it's playing out in court. So to me, the gentrified economy that has put a value on heirloom maize and that has allowed traditional producers to sell their product outside of the agribusiness market is also contributing to this fight for our food sovereignty in Mexico. It's not an ideal way to fight for it, but it's the one we have. So we had to really try to navigate around that. And that's why all of this moral thing or who gets to cook and everything, I don't think it's a good way to study food. It's a falsification of the history of food.
- [24:13]
B
Well, going from those very important, but also sometimes philosophical or theoretical questions down to the actual level of the human on the street. Can I ask, when you give taco tours in Mexico City, where you're from, where do you start those tours and why?
- [24:31]
C
So Mexico City is very neighborhoodly, which people don't think, because it's such a huge city, right? But you can actually live in a Mexico City neighborhood and have a full ecosystem of everything you need in a walking distance. And if you go, I go to Colonia San Rafael, which has a good number of tequilas that are adjacent to each other, but in like a three block radius. And it includes El Califa de Leon, which is a very simple taco that is made from beef tenderloin. And it actually got a Michelin star, which in fact has detracted from its quality because the guy that used to make them left because he wanted to make his own business. And then they have a huge line. I don't know if they are able to get the traditional supply at the same scale as they're doing now. But in any case, it's sort of a very quintessential steak taco made in agrido. And then you go to Latonina, which is around the corner is the northern Mexican tacos. And there's another stand down the road that makes, which is brisket coating cooked in confit is a very traditional street taco. So you can build these geographies, but it is embedded that you are walking on a city that has physical characteristics, that has cultural characteristics. So a taco tour like that allows you to see the correlation between the object and the space. I have grown in writing this book, very interested about the material specialty of. Of social objects. Because it's not only that the object has a history of certain characteristics, but the way you consume or use an object. I can give you an example with a book, right? I cannot read in silence because I became a reader in public transportation. So I was either wearing a Walkman to put some music sewn out, or I was just learning to read with all the bustling of the city. And that's a form of reading that is different than the bourgeois sitting back in your couch in a private space. So the taco works in a similar way, right? Because it's so integrated to the textures of the city. That's sitting in an upscale restaurant where you have a waiter, where you have A woman in front of the kitchen making tortillas by hand. And then you can order a champagne if you want. It's not the same experience of sitting in the outside drinking a Coca Cola with one hand and the taco with the other, and then having to eat them while people are walking behind you because they're shopping in Americado. Right. That speciality is interesting to me, that as a part of the definition of the food objects.
- [27:04]
B
Yeah, I definitely think the object part of it comes through with that sort of thinking.
- [27:09]
C
And that was a good challenge of object lessons because the editors don't want you to write around the object, they want you to write about the object. And the objectual quality of the taco is socially constructed. So you go back and forth between the material object and the material social space around it.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah, no, and that comes through in the book. Kind of back and forth throughout. Now, I've asked you to do a number of things in our conversation that might be controversial.
- [27:36]
C
Right.
- [27:37]
B
We started off with a bunch of myth busting of things people think they know. Then we tackled some topics like gentrification. That is very political. But I think I've saved my most controversial question for the last one on the book, which is, what is the best taco you have ever had so far?
- [27:57]
C
I mean, it's an apples and oranges question.
- [27:59]
B
Yes.
- [28:00]
C
I can tell you the worst. The worst is the French. The worst is the French taco in Paris. It's a particular kind of thing that they call a taco, but it's like more like a burrito that you put together, like in a McDonald's like screen. And then, you know, they have some undecipherable things, like they have a sauce called Samurai that nobody knew when I asked, nobody knew what it was. Or, you know, you can put curry and you can put. And then you can also cover it with bridges. So when I was sitting there, I was you know, reconsidering my life choices almost. Now, to me, in terms of the best experience is because it's so experiential. Like to me, the taco al pastor at night in my favorite place in Mexico City, which is Elcito, which was unfortunately discovered by Netflix, so it had a wave of tourists just showing all the spectacle. It seems to have died down. But this is a car repair shop during the day that closes and then they put three tacos al pastor, which are like shawarmas, and then they just sell them overnight. And they are such an amazingly done quality taco. But also in the kind of form and social context that I enjoy. And to me, that combination is what makes them.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah, no, that is obviously very subjective, but still good to get a sense.
- [29:27]
C
Of some of the things that I favor. The taco el pastora, my favorite kind. And then there's a place that I have an effective connection because it was a neighborhood I used to spend a lot of time with. And it's also a kind of form and experience that I really yearn because it doesn't exist in the U.S. the U.S. especially. I live in the Midwest of the U.S. and these are cities with very little public space. It's very difficult to work in them. There's very little street food, economies because of regulation. And I think that that leads to an impoverished social experience. So going back to this bustling city like Mexico City or Seoul or Beijing or whatever, any city that actually has this kind of economy is very. I enjoy the Full Moon because it's like that.
- [30:14]
B
Well, and that goes back to what we've been saying throughout. Right. Part of what's happening here is the object. Part of it is the emotion and the social connection, and part of it is the space. So that answer kind of brings it all together.
- [30:27]
C
But that is why the unidimensional judgments. I keep going back to this, but the unidimensional judgments of X person made this. So it's disqualified. Right. Or this is great because it was done by a marginalized person. All of that kind of statement misses layering that are very important in understanding not only cacos, but almost every social. Every social object. Right. And another thing to say to that, just because why not? We can be a little bit more controversial. That is a mode of thinking race that comes from the US which is a very segregated society. So I think it makes sense in the US because the idea that there is a stark color line and then there are robberies from one side of the color line to the other in music and everything. It makes sense that it's spoken in that language. But Mexico constructed its identity to racial mixture. This is not to say that there's a lot of racism and appropriation and everything, but the sense of ownership of the culture in such a mixed culture works in different terms. And I also think that there's some kind of cognitive imperialism when you try to apply American vocabulary to Latin American reality. So that's embedded in. Because it's written in English. And I presume a very large part of the race is going to be people in the U.S. i have to get them out from the understanding of culture from the US and really think how those inequalities of power are thought about in Latin America, where race is mixed. So it's on a spectrum rather than a set of boxes. And it's also intertwined in complicated ways with economic class and with geographical inequality, which in Mexico, the rural urban divide is very stark.
- [32:14]
B
There's a lot of things in this book, but as I said, it's not 800 pages. Like, it is actually quite readable.
- [32:21]
C
It's 30,000 words. It's 30,000 words, and I was bound to them. Bound. So you can read it in a sitting. It's very narrative, too. Even though I'm a scholar, I really have always liked to write narratively. So academics have to do better with storytelling, I think, as a matter of style, because it really does. You can convey a lot of information through storytelling in ways that sort of the traditional academic prose gatekeeps from readers.
- [32:53]
B
Well, that makes me even more curious then, if you have any current or upcoming projects that you want to give us a sneak preview of, Is it also storytelling?
- [33:01]
C
Yes. I just signed yesterday a contract with Cambridge University Press.
- [33:05]
B
Congratulations.
- [33:06]
C
They have a series called Imagining Cities. And essentially they are geographical accounts of individual cities through their literature. So they have the city center. His name is Christopher Morris. He has a really wonderful book about Dublin that is called Dublin a Writer City. And I am writing the Mexico City version of this, which is gonna be like a layer. I'm gonna grab spaces of Mexico City and then layer them with literary histories and the different layers of each space, from the palaces and the sort of high art all the way down to, like, the undergrounds and the night cultures. So the taco book sort of grows into this kind of. Because it's more of a method of dealing with culture in space, which, of course, I mean, if we were to get wonky for your academic listeners, it ties to the long history of people like the Birmingham School of Cultural Studies. I also a big reader of Pierre Bourdieu. I'm also a big reader of Walter Benjamin and also a big reader of Henri Lefebvre. But it tries to make more of a pragmatics of it rather than. I think that sometimes we read those things as theorists, and in reality, they all were interested in the pragmatics of society. So sometimes a better application of their work is not to regurgitate their concepts, but rather to just actually do what the concepts tell you to do as a researcher.
- [34:36]
B
Well, that certainly sounds very interesting and related to the book. We've been talking about. So while you're working on that, listeners can go read Taco, published by Bloomsbury in 2025 as part of the Object Lesson series. Nacho, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [34:51]
C
Thank you for having me.