Ihnji Jon, "Cities in the Anthropocene: New Ecology and Urban Politics" (Pluto Press, 2021)

Summary

Podcast Summary: New Books Network — "Cities in the Anthropocene: New Ecology and Urban Politics" with Ihnji Jon

Episode Overview
This episode features Dr. Ihnji Jon, author of Cities in the Anthropocene: New Ecology and Urban Politics (Pluto Press, 2021), interviewed by host Stentor Danielson. The conversation explores how new ecological thinking reshapes urban politics and the practice of environmentalism—especially in politically diverse or resistant city contexts. Dr. Jon shares her research on case studies in Tulsa, Oklahoma; Darwin, Australia; Cleveland, Ohio; and Cape Town, South Africa, focusing on bottom-up approaches to environmental responsibility, the pragmatics of activism, the politics of scale, and the generative power of narrative and infrastructure.

---

Main Themes and Purpose

• Integration of New Ecology and Urban Politics: The book investigates ways “more-than-human” ecological ideas influence and disrupt traditional urban planning and environmental politics.
• Local Action and Everyday Experience: Dr. Jon emphasizes how grounded, everyday interactions with urban environments shape new sustainability narratives, especially in settings where traditional “green” politics are politically fraught.
• Case Studies as Learning Sites: By focusing on under-discussed cities, the work explores the varied, creative ways inhabitants and practitioners remake environmental practice around local realities.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dr. Jon's Background and Motivation (02:29–04:53)

• Works as a lecturer in International Urban Politics, focusing on performative politics—how new identities and initiatives emerge in complex urban settings.
• Motivated by a gap in research: ecological theory’s limited application to on-the-ground urban planning.
• Challenges the traditional “Western” top-down view by focusing on the situated, plural, and evolving interactions individuals have with their environments.
  • Quote:
    “I believe in the nobility of how every single individual interact with their situated environments and reinvent their own realities through movement and action.” — Ihnji Jon (03:31)

The "New Ecology" (04:53–06:55)

• Informed by theorists like Bruno Latour, Anna Tsing, Jane Bennett, John Dewey.

• New ecology blurs the human/nature divide, focusing on entanglements and co-evolution.

• Emphasizes responsibility as a daily, grounded practice—actions like water management, waste, disaster planning become central sites of ecological citizenship.

  • Quote:
    “New ecology really asks us about the question of responsibility as a situated and grounded practice, not as a top down or universal norm that we have to accept without question.” — Ihnji Jon (05:44)

Pragmatic Environmentalism in Conservative Cities (07:53–09:51)

• Explored how practitioners sidestep ideological conflicts by using neutral, material language (e.g., “low impact development,” “native landscaping”) rather than “green” or “environment.”
• These strategies connect socioeconomic needs with environmental goals, advancing climate-conscious changes without explicit confrontation.
  • Quote:
    “It's not kind of I'm going to impose my ideas on you, but it's more like persuasion of these kinds of things are really, you know, make you feel good.” — Ihnji Jon (09:16)

Material Roots of Environmental Politics (09:51–12:34)

• Material realities—the dominance of oil and gas industries, for example—profoundly influence urban environmental conflict.
• Even pragmatic, material solutions become possible pathways to climate-conscious outcomes, sometimes without people’s explicit awareness.

Case Study Selection and Rationale (12:34–19:31)

• Tulsa: Notable for disaster resilience planning amidst a conservative, oil-and-gas economy.
• Darwin: Focuses on federal funding tied to natural gas, explores activism in resource-dependent regions.
• Cleveland: Examines how environmental initiatives intersect with stark socioeconomic and spatial divides.
• Cape Town: Looks at spatial segregation, environmental activism, and how local experts and planners frame climate issues.
• Dr. Jon reflects on the role of “inspiration”—encountering unexpected local initiatives and academic works—guiding her comparative methodology.

Bottom-Up Ethics and Policy Translation (21:33–27:13)

• Rejects universalist ethical frameworks in favor of performative, narrative practices rooted in everyday life.
• Advocates for cultural movements—art, infrastructure, story—that translate lived experiences into broader societal momentum, eventually shaping policy.
  • Quote:
    “If you build that movement, how does it translate? How can that be translated into a political action? … the building of…cultural: kind of the atmospheric approach to environmentalism.” — Ihnji Jon (26:04)

Concrete Mechanisms for Environmental Culture (27:34–30:24)

• Three methods identified:

  1. Everyday Infrastructure (e.g., sewer, stormwater systems) as sites for ecological awareness.
  2. Topological Elements: Public art and place-based events highlighting rivers, mountains, etc., foster attachment and awareness (e.g., art exhibitions celebrating the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland).
  3. Built Environment and Design: Architecture/urban space can evoke emotions and shape perceptions of environment.
  • Quote (on public art in Cleveland):
    “[They] invited this international artist … and he kind of did this performative theatrical event about Cuyahoga lighting and really making people aware how our life…is dependent on water and the Cuyahoga River…” — Ihnji Jon (28:33)

Reframing Scale: The Global and the Local (30:24–35:34)

• Argues we should understand “the global” not as an abstract, unreachable scale but as “ubiquitousness”—the pervasive, material conditions (water, air, etc.) connecting local to global.

• Quotes John Dewey: we tackle global issues by starting with our own gardens (i.e., the local).

• Stresses the importance of recognizing shared responsibilities across and between scales, invoking Nancy Fraser’s thinking on “geographies of responsibility.”

  • Quote:
    “Globalness as ubiquitousness, of the things that we interact [with], you know, like the water, air, you know, all of these things are ubiquitous…” — Ihnji Jon (33:13)

Methodological Challenges and Social Inquiry (36:53–42:06)

• Fieldwork built on identifying and connecting with well-networked local actors; snowball sampling in diverse contexts.
• Emphasizes humility and engagement—learning from those “doing the work,” not striving for objective pictures.
• Advocates for research as social inquiry, valuing interaction and the dynamic making of knowledge over static representation.
  • Quote:
    “…Knowledge making is not taking a picture, a static picture of what's going on, but more about interacting with different kinds of people. And that's how you gain the value for your knowledge making.” — Ihnji Jon (41:10)

Current and Future Research (42:20–43:53)

• Ongoing work on post-Western epistemologies (inspired by Anna Tsing), particularly how non-Western, “co-evolutionary” narratives shape urban environmentalism in the Global East and South.
• Investigating how problematic urban situations (e.g., waste, climate events) catalyze collective identity formation and public action across diverse communities.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On New Ecology:
  “It really catches the essentialist division between human or non, human or culture or nature, because it highlights how we are intricately intertwined…” — Ihnji Jon (05:32)
• On Pragmatics:
  “…they had to invent new narratives … that link the immediate socioeconomic needs with more longer term reflected social good…” — Ihnji Jon (08:17)
• On Infrastructure as Culture:
  “…really, cities are centers of intensive material movements…basic infrastructure like electricity, waste water and sewer systems [highlight] how we are dependent on the ecosystem dynamics.” — Ihnji Jon (27:51)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Jon’s Background and Book’s Genesis: [02:29–04:53]
• Definition and Significance of “New Ecology”: [04:53–06:55]
• Pragmatic Approaches in Conservative Contexts: [07:53–09:51]
• Case Study Urban Politics: [12:34–19:31]
• Everyday Ethics and Policy Change: [21:33–27:13]
• Concrete Examples of Cultural Environmentalism: [27:34–30:24]
• Rethinking Scale – Local-Global Relations: [30:24–35:34]
• Research Process and Challenges: [36:53–42:06]
• Current and Future Projects: [42:20–43:53]

---

Overall Tone and Style

The conversation is thoughtful and reflective, often exploratory, with Dr. Jon frequently pausing to clarify nuanced arguments and share her intellectual inspirations. The dialogue is collegial, occasionally self-deprecating, as both host and guest grapple with complex, evolving issues in urban environmental politics.

---

This summary offers a comprehensive overview for listeners seeking to understand Dr. Jon’s arguments and the substance of Cities in the Anthropocene, complete with timestamps and speaker-attributed quotes embedded throughout.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Go beyond the verses and achieve a deeper understanding of Scripture with the Rebind Study Bible App. An audio experience of the Bible interwoven with expert commentary. The Rebind Study Bible App reads Scripture to you, enriching your comprehension with insights from the world renowned New International commentary on the Old and the New Testament in an accessible podcast episode format. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow.

[Advertiser/Promoter]

Matthew chapter 6 each day will have its troubles, but by God's grace they can be survived.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Use the Rebind Study Bible App's chat function to ask questions and get answers in real time. That's thought provoking discussion and analysis rooted in decades of research and wisdom from more than 40 scholars at your fingertips. The Rebind Study Bible App is a new way to experience the Bible with enhanced depth at your own pace in the moments you have Search the Apple App Store for Rebind Study Bible or go to Rebind App for a free seven day trial.

[Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. It's best enjoyed over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata delivering vacation vibes anyway, or anywhere you drink it. Find out [e-mail] drink responsibly Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaaukee, Wisconsin. All rights reserved.

[Advertiser/Promoter]

Introducing Meta Ray Ban, the world's most advanced AI glasses with a full color display built into the lens of the glasses. It's there when you need it and gone when you don't. Send and receive messages, translate or caption live conversations. Collaborate with Meta AI and more. Be one of the first to try Meta Ray ban display. Visit meta.com metaraybanddisplay to book a demo and find your pair.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Stentor Danielson]

You're listening to New Books in Geography, a podcast channel in the New Books Network. I'm your host for today, Stentor Danielson from the Department of Geography, Geology and the Environment at Slippery Rock University. Today I'll be talking to Inji John, author of Cities in the Anthropocene New Ecology and Urban Politics, published this year by Pluto Press. Dr. John, welcome to the show.

[Inji John]

Hi Stentor, thank you so much for inviting me.

[Stentor Danielson]

So, to start off, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about your background and how you came to write this book.

[Inji John]

Yes, my name is Ingee and I work as a lecturer in International Urban Politics at the University of Maryborough and Maryborough center for Cities in the Land of Orange People. My work centers around how to understand politics in a more performative sense, so how new identities initiatives can emerge amidst of or despite of the existence of plurality of different groups and desires in cities. I mostly work on urban environmentalism and disaster planning, or more conceptually, what it means to plan in or plan for the uncertainties or complexities of contemporary urban life. I came to write this book for mainly two reasons. I think, first of all, I think the new ecology or more than human ideas have been around for long time, but I haven't really seen them directly being applied to urban planning context, except for the works of Robert Beauregard at Columbia or Nietzsche Mars at Warwick. So I think I wanted to extend their work through talking with planning practitioners in different cities. And secondly, I think I always struggled with the idea of what it means, what local really means, because I think a lot of academic literature talk about local social entities as kind of like puppets of larger systems that are already knowable behind our desk. But I think there is, I think this kind of approach of, you know, something that is unknowable behind our desk is a continuation of kind of the Western tradition. So I think I was more on the side of the situated understanding of the word in the sense that I believe in the nobility of how every single individual interact with their situated environments and reinvent their own realities through movement and action. So within the belief of heterogeneous and ever evolving ontologies, there is a possibility of what we call chance of space as proposed by Doreen Massey.

[Stentor Danielson]

Okay, well, you've just kind of set up some of my next few questions that I wanted to ask there. So let's start off with this concept of new ecology that's in the subtitle and you just mentioned it. And so, since there have been a lot of different ideas or concepts, concepts of ecology over the years, could you tell us what the specific type of new ecology that you're drawing on in this book is, and what are some of the major claims made in this new ecology that you think are really important?

[Inji John]

Yeah. Yes, as you mentioned before, this new modern humanism has been proposed by many people, notably Bright Otti and Anna Ching and Jane Bennett. For me, I think I learned a lot from Bruno Latour and Anna Ching, Jane Bennett and John Dewey. What I like about it is that it really catches the essentialist division between human or non, human or culture or nature, because it highlights how we are intricately intertwined with one another. Through co evolution processes. New ecology really ask us about the question of responsibility as a situated and grounded practice, not as a top down or universal norm that we have to accept without question. What's really useful for me is that how new ecology helps us pay attention to our everyday or immediate surroundings. The pro environmental actions that we do in urban setting should be fueled by and not disconnected from our everyday experiences, including water, sewer, electricity, or disaster planning or all the kind of immediate goods that we want to value in cities. This has to be connected with what we normally perceive as pro environmental initiatives.

[Stentor Danielson]

Yeah, and I think one of the interesting things you do is then you take this approach to ecology which, you know, has this aura of being really kind of radical and cutting edge. You know, when you think of many of the people that are citing some of these same, you know, theorists like Latour and so forth that you mentioned. So you take this and for you it leads into a very pragmatic approach to environmental politics and that it's kind of a way to engage people who wouldn't be interested in policies that get labeled green or environmental. So can you tell us a bit about how this connection works between this new ecology and this approach to politics that kind of gets around some of the existing conflicts about things that come with that environmental label on them?

[Inji John]

Yeah, I think I'm going on a very colloquial note here. I think what's really interesting for me to visit kinds of politically conservative cities was that they had to deal with the consequences of climate change or climate crisis, but because of their political climate, they had to invent new narratives or kinds of narratives that link the, the immediate socioeconomic needs with more longer term reflected social good. So I find it really interesting how they use, you know, purposefully, not really using the word the environment or nature. And they use kind of wording such as low impact development on site, stormwater management, flood buffer, riverside parks, native plants or landscaping. All of these things that people can sense in everyday life. And they connect that they use supposedly this kind of neutrality of material things that we find in cities as a way to advance environmental agenda. And sometimes they don't even really mention to the people they communicate with. Like their ulterior motive is the environmentalism. It's more about, you know, how we live, how we are going to live together. And it's not kind of I'm going to impose my ideas on you, but it's more like persuasion of these kind of things are really, you know, makes you feel good. So maybe this is something that you want to reflect on. And in the end, I think this kind of cultural or atmospheric approach to environmentalism can be a source of more political possibility.

[Stentor Danielson]

Yeah, there's a really interesting, I think, material dimension to what you're talking about here in terms of the types of politics that you're describing and then also in the kind of roots of why we need to do this anyway. Because as you said, you're talking about cities that are in very conservative regions. And you point out that that's not just like they have this ideology of conservatism that, that has like a real material basis. Because these are things like, you know, you're writing about Tulsa, Oklahoma, the big industry everywhere around there is oil and gas. And so people's like actual jobs are dependent on a thing that's also tied up in causing all of the climate change problems. And then so it's like a material cause of the conflict, but then you're looking to material objects as a way to create the solutions and get around the political conflict. Is that a fair summary?

[Inji John]

Yeah, I think it's a fair summary. And also, you know, the book is kind of the propositional note. So some of the things that I don't talk about, I think like, you know, I forgot to talk, not forgot, but probably, you know, I try not to emphasize too much Is this. So in environmentalism, like environmental movements in those regions, there are more assertive movements, of course, there are movements that are against oil and gas or fossil fuel industries because they are the drivers. And then there are movements that are pragmatic, the things that I just described to you about how they're using kind of common sense logic to introduce pro environmentalist imageries. And so for me, it's not really the question of whether I take one side or the other, but it's really what was interesting to me was that how people try to interject what they believe to be true or what they believe to be a right thing to do, sometimes assertive way, but sometimes in a way that is more collegial or it's not even the word that I think, I don't know, really like creative and sometimes unexpected. And so the people who receive this kind of imageries, they don't really even know what they're getting into. But eventually what happens is the kinds of outcomes that are climate conscious.

[Stentor Danielson]

Okay, so I mentioned there in my last question, one of your case studies that, such as Tulsa, Oklahoma, and then you also talk about Darwin in the Northern Territory of Australia, Cleveland, Ohio and Cape Town in South Africa. So how did you go about choosing those four cities as the ones that you are going to focus your research on? What did those specific cities illustrate for us?

[Inji John]

Yeah, so for tirsa, it's the case where I learned from disaster management and hazard mitigation. So my key research interests before this book was a lot of disaster planning. And I was reading articles of Goshak, it's kind of the core reading and he was kind of talking about Tulsa Klauma as the exemplary model for developing spatial form that is disaster resilient. For me, that was kind of interesting because it's kind of the examples that we frequently encounter. You know, we often talk about big coastal cities or the cities that we know of, but this is cities that I haven't really, you know, known much about. And I just thought that it was interesting. So I was kind of digging up more information and I ran into an article that talks about how Tulsa is preparing for climate change, but in a way that is quite different. You know, just really try to emphasize on the extreme climate events and how that affects everyday lives of people and that really becomes a source of advocating for climate conscious planning. And so I found that interesting and I tried to have more of a comparative, international comparative angle and Darwin came into my mind because it's kind of one of the least so called developed area because, because of the harsh climate and it is also dependent on natural gas industries. And there were a lot of political contentions around whether because that region recently received a big funding from the federal government and there was speculation that the reason they received the government funding, federal government funding, was that they allow the fracking. And so I thought that maybe I would go there and try to understand what environmentalists or environment activists think of this issue and how they campaign for their ideals. And so yeah, and we can talk about that a little bit more later. As for Cleveland and Cape Town, Cleveland, I was really interested in it because of the main question of my book is that how do you introduce environmental agendas in the context where it's not sometimes always obvious? For me, I found that this spatial segregation that very evident in that area and also the background problems that are occurring was a good example for me to understand what it's like to, you know, pursue climate conscious planning. And as for Cape Town, it's also kind of similar lens, like, you know, like try to understand more transnational and comparison, try to initiate more transnational comparison that I thought that maybe I could compare another city in another context and compare that with Cleveland and obviously, you know, Cape Town is really suffers a lot from spatial segregation because of its history chronicities. And I was thinking of, you know, how do I go about this as a visitor? And I decided that, okay, I would talk to the, you know, experts. What I would think is experts in the sense that, you know, the planners and environment activists and the people who are already working in that region and how they, you know, their narratives and write about it according to their narratives. And so I think that's how I came up with the cases. But it was, you know, but I want to mention that it's kind of a rent. It was a kind of a random process. It really started from Tulsa and then Darwin, and then I was kind of looking for other cases where. Other cases that haven't really been covered in the mainstream academic literature. Because I think whenever I read research articles, I read a lot about New York. I read a lot about, I don't know, big coastal cities in general, but I haven't really encountered a lot of writings on those cities. Obviously, Cape Town has been researched a lot by University of Cape Town, and there are really big, awesome initiatives there. But for me, it's just like putting different cities into the transnational comparative lens was something that I thought I could do as a transnational person. So I think that was the main motivation there. Yeah, I don't know if I'm too. I don't know.

[Stentor Danielson]

That's good. And, you know, I think you're illustrating the eternal dilemma of case study research, which is, you know, every different case you could pick could show us something interesting and unique. So how do you narrow it down to the specific ones that you choose? And, you know, sometimes you can be real systematic about it. Other. But most of the time, you know, there's a certain amount of inspiration that, you know, goes into deciding, all right, these are the cities that I'm going to write about or, you know, whatever the cases are that you're looking at.

[Inji John]

I think the inspiration is a really good point. I mean, for me, I think I was really inspired by a lot of researchers and writers in University of Cape Town, and they talk about this electricity, water, sewer, and try to connect that with citywide region resilience. So for me, I was really just inspired by that work, and therefore I decided to compare it with other cities, et cetera. So I think that the writers that I admire, the things that I just come across randomly or suddenly really affect how I choose the cases.

[Stentor Danielson]

Yep.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The holidays are coming up, and that means friends and family are going to be in your house. Is your house ready? I know mine wasn't. So I went to Wayfair to make sure that I had everything I needed to entertain and put these people up. During the holiday season, Wayfair is the place to shop for all things you need for your home, from sofas to spatulas. And listen to this. Starting October 30th, you can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. You can get up to 70% off. Wayfair will ship your items fast and free. Now, in my case, I need to do betting. My betting was shot. So what did I do? Well, I went to Wayfair and I bought some new sheets and pillowcases. I also bought a comforter simply because I thought it was beautiful. It was very easy to order them. The price was right, shipping was free, and they came well before I needed them. So don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W A Y-F A I R.com sale ends December 7th.

[Advertiser]

What I bought a new Blink Mini 2K plus smart security camera. What I got 2K clarity sharp enough to see every detail of home when I'm away. Plus audio like I'm in the room, not with my bestie traveling to another city. Plus easy plugins set up to install faster than skipping through podcast ads. But you'd never Skip ads, right? Plus, I got all of this for just $49.99. Blink Mini 2K Mini Camera Max Performance.

Shop [e-mail] Blink Join Vanguard for a moment of meditation. Take a deep breath. Picture yourself reaching your financial goals. Feel that freedom. Visit vanguard.com investinginyou to learn more. All investing is subject to risk.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Extra value meals are back for just $5. Get a savory and sweet sausage, egg and cheese McGriddles plus hash browns and.

[Advertiser/Promoter]

A coffee only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California. And for delivery.

[Stentor Danielson]

Yeah, and I think it's as important what you get out of the cases than just if you picked the right cases in the beginning. Right. Okay, so I want to now circle back around to something that you mentioned in your first answer, which is that you're using this ethical perspective that's really bottom up. So you're kind of getting away from having these overarching rules or definitions of the good or something that people then Would, you know, conform to that would tell us what to do. Like you'd have if you had, like, you know, utilitarianism or Kantian ethics or something that give this kind of, you know, big picture, universal set of rules for what we should do. So you're making an argument that we can root things in our concrete everyday experiences that we have in the world. And so I'd like you to talk a little bit about that. And then also sort of my question about it is how do we go from something that is very concrete and maybe very personal to some sort of a plan of action at the level of citywide policy or something like that? How do we make the connection between those experiences that are our ethical perspective might be rooted in to, you know, changing a city law or, you know, whatever the policy outcome might be?

[Inji John]

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And, you know, it's really the question, I think, for any social science research, how do we go about from the situated perspective to more reflected social perspective? And for me, what I want to emphasize is that probably I really hope that it comes across, but I don't know, I really wanted to emphasize the performative power of narratives and how we tell stories and how we make different kinds of articulations. And as I mentioned before, I really, you know, when we do case study research, I'm not really the expert of all cities. You know, it's impossible. I haven't really lived there for one or two years. And it's sometimes it's a choice for me to go to these places and talk to different practitioners and how they answer these questions through their practice. So this was something that I was really interested in, how they do certain kinds of things that they think they want to do and the questions that I want to ask academically or philosophically. And so by focusing on their narratives, the kinds of things that they do was for me is the possibility of linking the immediate social good with reflected social good and so creation and generation of new narratives and how we communicate with other people. I think that also is really the part of the words too. So I think the question of language and experience and how intertwined they are and if we could, if we can use that in everyday planning practice, that's something that we don't really usually talk about, I think, in planning academic literature. And so when it comes to then how do we connect that discourse, narration to more policy and action, political action, was that, I think I mentioned probably in the end bits of the chapter five, the power of Kind of the cultural movement. And it's almost, I think, now I think about it, I think it's kind of connected to whose culture or, you know, whose way of being or whose knowing really matters in the word. So if someone wants to initiate something new and they want to create some kind of movement, I think there are really just heterogeneous perspectives of being in the world and knowing the world. So that means that there are heterogeneous ways of making culture. So if you can make culture and if you can gain mainstream momentum, I think there can be a pressure on the politicians and pressure on the planning practitioners and the people who make the laws and policies. It kind of becomes this more of a social dialogue. So that's why I'm really interested in how each individual, assuming that everyone has something to contribute, something new as a person, like a unique person who wants to contribute something new, and how they try to build more popular or more mainstream movement through different kinds of creative means. And if we. If you build that movement, how does it translate? How. How can that be translated into a political action? Is something that I'm interested in. Probably in the future, maybe I should work more on it. But for me, at the moment, I was more interested in that. The building of. Of cultural. Kind of the atmospheric approach to environmentalism. I don't know if I make sense. Making sense.

[Stentor Danielson]

No, I think that makes sense. I was just going to follow up by asking if you could maybe talk about an example of that that you encountered in one of your cities that you were researching. Maybe give us a little more concrete illustration of what that might look like to build that kind of cultural atmosphere or movement around these issues.

[Inji John]

Yeah. So I think one of the ways. I think there are three ways, mainly three ways. One way is the everyday infrastructure. So, you know, the practitioners, Cape Town and practitioners in Cleveland, they talk a lot about sewer and stormwater management. So really, cities are the intensive kind of centers of intensive material movements, and they can kind of talk about this basic infrastructure like electricity, waste water and sewer systems to highlight how we are dependent on the ecosystem dynamics. So that's one way. And the other way is to talk about, like, the topology elements that people sense in the everyday urban living. Right. I mean, the mountains and rivers and things like that. And as I discussed in the case of Cleveland, said they had a big kind of art exhibition. And also there was a big art event about Cuyahoga river and celebrating Cuyahoga River. And so they invited this international artist called Chego Chung. And he kind of this performative theatrical event about Cuyahoga lighting and really making people aware how our life or, you know, leaving the city is dependent on water and the Cuyahoga river that has been existed for centuries, even before humans, I don't know, human settlement began. And so all those kind of historical elements of topology and mountain, water and rivers, hills. And I kind of talk about that in the gondolas system in Medellin, that all of those transportation infrastructure also dependent on the topological background of the city, too. So really highlighting that historical relationship between topological elements and human settlement could be also one way. Finally, the other way is really, really the agency of built environment and design. And this is where I think I'm quite inspired by kind of known representation theory, like the effect theory, and how, like a building and architecture and design that you come across or pass in cities, they can inspire you because it affects your emotion and how you feel or how you perceive you and the surrounding environment. So the agency of buildings and what that makes you feel is also one element for cities to enact on this kind of atmospheric approach to environmentalist imageries.

[Stentor Danielson]

Okay, so I now want to change gears a little bit and ask you about scale. So, you know, you're obviously not the first person to suggest that cities are a good scale at which to deal with climate change and, you know, all these other issues that get wrapped up under that label of the Anthropocene. But I think one sort of interesting thing that you do is that you reconceptualize the global scale a little bit so that it's not so much that, you know, if we are thinking at the scale of the city, then we're sort of not being global. We're setting the global part aside. You know, global is too big of a scale to work at, but you kind of connect in the global scale to the urban or city scale. So could you talk a little bit about the importance of scale and what it means to address these problems at the city scale?

[Inji John]

Yeah, I think my interest in the scale, for me, it really began with. I think that's a really great question, by the way. I think really began with, for me, trying to grapple with the ecosystem dynamics. You know, so my background is, you know, hazard mitigation and environmental planning. So I kind of think about what that means in terms of scale. That's kind of the, you know, there's a tree scale, there's a forest scale, there is a, you know, a wider ecosystem scale. You know, that there. There is a physical element. But what I found out Is that there, there is a whole different literature, a political geography literature. And it talks about the political scales of how intertwined city politicians are influenced by global politics and vice versa. And all of these networks of political scale is there too. And I try to grapple with why would that side of political geography would matter to ecosystem scale and what ecosystem scale can teach to the political geography understanding of political politics of scale. So for me, what was useful from the literature of Latour is that he kind of describes global as globally ubiquitous. So it's not really about global as in the Archimedean globe that you have on your desk, the globe, but more about the globalness of architecture. Ubiquitousness. Globalness as ubiquitousness, of the things that we interact, you know, like the water, air, you know, all of these things are ubiquitous. Internet, you know, you name it. A lot of things that we share in the world is ubiquitous. And so, and John Dewey also says that, you know, we, if we think about global problems, we have to start from our own backyard, you know, our own garden. And I think in that understanding of global as ubiquitousness, you can link what's global with local. Local in the sense that you can immediately sense what's going on. You can immediately sense what's going on in your garden, how you're going to plant something, how they're going to grow. Well, you know, there is the catchment of care. And then it also matters that that experience of carrying your back backyard can be connected to a wider perception of your responsibility, to wider forces or the things that are larger. But that's kind of the. But I think that's kind of the procedural thing. So I think the main argument is that ubiquitousness, how that helps us to understand how local can also be global. But probably what I, I think what I failed to touch on is really the connection of like the process of building that. And I think there is a new discussion right now about what's the geography of responsibility, you know, responsibility of your.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Own.

[Inji John]

Community and your own city. And that really goes to the international too. You know, all of these things that Nancy Fraser talks about, of different scales of responsibility, I think that's really up to us to talk about. I think it's a long process of talking about my responsibility to the environment here and now and the longer term responsibility of us even as human species to talk about it. But I don't know, it's a big topic, so I don't think I kind of represent it very well. I don't really know. But I think that thinking of Environmental issues as global, ubiquitous. I think it's something that helps us understand why global war can be connected with the local. I don't know. Does it make sense? I don't know.

[Stentor Danielson]

Yeah, and I was actually going to say you mentioned Latour a couple times in this interview. And I've been kind of a Latour skeptic for a long time, but your book has actually kind of sold me on Latour having some useful things to say. There are a few times when you said something, I was like, oh, that's a really good idea. Oh, hey, you're building, building on Latour with that. That's interesting. So I might have to go reread his stuff with a new eye to it after having seen what you do in your book.

[Inji John]

But I want to mention that Latour really draws a lot from John Dewey. So I think people who are interested in Latour have to read John Dewey to understand more the political side of ant. I think that's. That's what I wanted to mention.

[Stentor Danielson]

Well, so that's actually probably why your book is like selling me on the tour, because I've been a John Dewey fan for a while and so I think you're kind of showing the connections between, you know, one of my favorite and one of my least favorite writers. So maybe reevaluate things a little bit.

[Inji John]

Oh, that's awesome. It's awesome to meet a friend of Dewey. Yeah.

[Stentor Danielson]

Okay. So then I also wanted to ask about your process for doing the research for the book. So you did a whole bunch of interviews with planners and activists and other stakeholders in these four cities. So what were some of the challenges and the surprises that you encountered while doing the actual data gathering part of the research?

[Inji John]

Yeah, one of the challenges is really open to the people that I meet. Like if I meet someone who is the node of the network, he's going to introduce me or she or they will introduce me with the bunch of people that they know. So in Tulsa, I kind of, you know, try to contact one person who's a disaster planning expert who's been mentioned in newspapers several times. I try to contact him and then I try to contact the other person who's more expertise in recycling. And the recycling person helped me go to different kinds of events. So there are different events that he was going and that I was invited to and et cetera. So I was quite lucky. I think in Darwin, I think it was a bit more challenging because I think people there were try to appreciate more. I think, you know, the local, the local researchers and academics and which is really, you know, I think that's really important, you know, because I'm transnational visitors. So, you know, I'm always aware of that. But I still managed to talk to city personnel. And there was one guy who connected me to two or three environmental activists. And that was really useful too. But, you know, the all really began from the Internet research or finding who seems to be the connection in newspaper articles or the things that are happening. And Cleveland. And Cleveland. I was really lucky because the same way I kind of contacted different environmental organizations and one of them got back to me and they invited me to beat events on environmentalism. And that's how I got hooked up with different people. And. And in Cape Town, I just kind of attended one of the research meeting of a different colleague, but he introduced me to one city official and that person became the nod for me because she knew so many people on that environmental planning. So then I got hooked onto this. So I think it's. Sometimes it often begins with the newspaper article search and try to find a person who seems to be the main actor and try to, you know, follow the actors, as that says. But in case of. I think Cape Town was more about. I. It was through some connections that my colleague had and then I kind of built my connections through them. So I think what I really learned from this research is really about how all of this is human connections and interactions in general. I think I kind of took a different approach as opposed to other academic research in the sense that I tried to meet with people who are doing the work as opposed to. I mean, there are a lot of academic researchers doing that. But what I meant to say is that, you know, it's not like I'm trying to draw the objective kind of aesthetic picture of what was happening for me. I was just really interested in talking and interacting with the people who was doing the work. And so I think that really made me realize what is important in inquiry. A pragmatist, you know, try to reframe research into social inquiry. Because we. We think that knowledge making is not taking a picture, a static picture of what's going on, but more about interacting with different kinds of people. And that's how you gain the value for your knowledge making. And so I think what really taught me was that I really have to go out in the world more and my knowledge making should be intertwined with how practitioners do their work. And I think that's something that I don't do. And I think that's something that I should do more. So I think I was guilty of that myself, you know, trying to capture the objective reality. And I tried to move away from that towards more of the engagement with the real world, you know what I mean? I don't know if I'm making sense.

[Stentor Danielson]

No, I think that makes perfect sense. And so it's kind of a good segue then into our final question which is to ask what you're working on next. What kind of projects are you taking up now that this book is out?

[Inji John]

Yeah, so I'm really interested in kind of post Western epistemologies inspired by Anna Ching. So Anna Ching kind of talks about the West Western approach to environmentalism that is kind of humans are evil so we have to control their behavior. And she kind of compares that with Japanese Santonyama practice where the environmentalism is more about finding out what's nature or culture through interaction. So the kind of intertwinement of nature and culture and the co evolution process of, of learning and co inhabiting. So I'm really interested in how this kind of post Western epistemologies affects how we do contemporary urban research in global east and Global South. So I'm trying to work with different non Western urbanists who do the similar work in the sense that we value local conventions and cultures in studying different regions. And the other work that I'm doing is the relationship between identity and local politics and where environment sits in between the two. And so I talk about how problematic situations like waste management or extreme climate events become opportunities for multicultural communities to come out of their ontological bubble by collectively addressing the public issues at hand.

[Stentor Danielson]

Okay, well that all sounds really exciting and we'd love to have you back if you end up writing a book about that stuff. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

[Inji John]

Thanks so much. Denjer.

[Stentor Danielson]

So you just heard a conversation with Inji John, author of Cities in the Anthropocene New Ecology and Urban Politics published this year by Pluto Press.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

And Doug, here we have the Limu imu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.

[Stentor Danielson]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Advertiser/Promoter]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Inji John]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings.

[Advertiser/Promoter]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.