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Ivan Franceschini et al., "Scam: Inside Southeast Asia's Cybercrime Compounds" (Verso Books, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:07]
B
Hello everybody and welcome back to New Books in East Asian Studies, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. I'm Bing, one of the hosts of the channel. Today we'll be talking to Ling Li and Ivan Franceschini to talk about their book scam Inside Southeast Asia Cybercrime Compounds. This book was published fairly recently in this July and takes an in depth look at the history and inner dynamics of the region's online scan industry. Among the authors, Lin Li is currently pursuing a PhD at Cafoskerry University of Venice on the role of technology in enabling modern slavery and human trafficking in east and southeast Asia, while Dr. Ivan Franceschini is a lecturer at the Asia Institute, University of Melbourne whose research focuses on ethnic Chinese transnational crime. Lin and Yuvan, welcome to the show.
- [02:12]
C
Thank you. Thank you.
- [02:16]
B
At first, please introduce a bit about yourself to the audience, although some of them may have known you from other episodes of yours.
- [02:25]
C
Okay, I will introduce myself first. Yeah, I'm Ivan and I'm currently at the University of Melbourne and I'm a lecturer in Chinese studies. My work for many years was about labor rights in China, social mobilization and labor NGOs, but over the past 10 years or so I've been working more and more about on global China, especially seen from the vantage point of Southeast Asia, especially Cambodia. And over the past couple of years or a bit more now, I've been working on transnational crime and special expertise online scam industry.
- [02:58]
D
So I'm Ling and as you've already mentioned, I'm a peer student at Kafoska University of Venice. But at the same time I have been in the sector of anti human trafficking for years, mainly in the NGO side. So from 2022 I have been providing support to the human trafficking victims of post criminality, basically for scamming in Cambodia and in Thailand.
- [03:29]
B
Thank you. Introduction of yourself. These are really amazing work from my perspective because. Well, we just talk about a book. What is the motivation for you to publish this work, Yvonne?
- [03:48]
D
I think it's your idea first.
- [03:50]
C
I mean like the book. The idea of the book came to us I think in mid 2022 and it was right after Covid and then I was in Cambodia after a couple of years away and you know, my work in the past was mostly about, I mean, Chinese investment in Cambodia and construction sites and my work was on Sihanoukville. And so after Covid happened and I was stuck in Australia for a couple of years at this chance to go back to Cambodia and I realized what had been happening in Sanukville and other places. I had already heard about it, but of course seeing it with my own eyes was another thing. And so in mid-2022, as I was in Cambodia by accident, I met Lynn and then I heard she. We met and then she told me that she was doing this, she was having these encounters with survivors of the scam compounds. And I realized that what she was doing aligned perfectly with me, what I was trying to do at that time. And also there was a third person in Cambodia, our third author, Mark Po. And he had been in Cambodia longer than either of us. He had been there for many, many years. And he had been tracking Chinese investment and the impact of Chinese investment on the ground. And he was a friend. And of course he was also interested in working on t. He had been monitoring this kind of situation, scams, criminal operations for several years already. Not in a systematic way probably, but. But basically in, I would say June, July 2022, we came together and then we decided to start working together, combining our expertise, our interests, our different experiences. And it was not framed as a book at the beginning. We didn't sit down and say, oh, we are going to write a book now. But that's when we decided to work together, begin to collect information, look around, trying to understand what was going on and that is the beginning of the idea that will become the book, I would say.
- [05:46]
D
Yeah, for me. Well, the, the most surprising part is I have been doing it in anti human trafficking. As I mentioned, the research is always about Southeast and Asian people that got trafficked to different countries like in the Middle east or in China. And so when I heard the first case of victim, a Chinese victim in Stamp compound, that shocked me. I never heard something like that. That's why I started digging in. And then I met Yvonne and then, yeah, we come up with idea.
- [06:22]
B
It's a fascinating encounter to bring three of you together. As you mentioned, there's still another author whose name is Mark Bo. And that's why it could be not very easy to structure your collaboration, I would guess, but it's also beneficial. For example, can you tell us a bit, how did you collaborate together? For example, which author primarily led the analysis of the survivors interviews or who is doing what in this collaboration?
- [07:01]
C
Yeah, sure, I can tell you. I mean like, I think our expertise, our background, our experience are quite complementary. That's why our collaboration works, I think. So the interviews, the people on the ground, the survivors. That part comes from Lynn. Lynn has been the one who had been engaging constantly and consistently with these victims of the scam compounds over the years. She had been very much involved with them, with all the civil society effort, them assist these people to get out of the compounds, go back home. So she had amazing access. She managed to establish very strong bonds of trust with the people she was meeting and interviewing later. So that part is all to her credit, I would say. And that's, I think, what makes our work stand out. Her access, her work on the ground. Then Mark, I would say is, is amazing at connecting the dots. I don't think I know anyone like Mark who can just collect information from all sorts of sources and then, you know, like connect the dots, really trying to understand who is behind what operation. You know, it's like Mark is like a working encyclopedia. So Mark is the one who has been like providing this kind of very grounded information about criminal groups and how they are connected to certain operations and compounds. And you know, Mark has been also amazing at fact checking. Like, I mean like there is the market and amazing, I would say a bullshit detector. It can really catch any, any inconsistency, any mistake, any affirmation, any statement that is not grounded is amazing at that. So I would say Mark has given this great contribution. As for myself, I, my, I'm more of an academic and so I think I'm the first order because basically I coordinated the work and wrote the book, most of it at least. And then based on this mater collaboration constant discussion over several years with Mark and link. My experience, my background is in China studies, Global China studies. So I tried to make sense of this huge amount of information that was coming from Mark Link, social media, online sources, not so much academic literature because at that time there wasn't much. Even today there isn't much. But it was like me, my job I think was more to analyze and frame the thing. Trying to situate funding, trying to make sense of again of something that was really, I think underexplored. It still is under explored but I mean like it's something that on a topic, an issue on which we can find really a lot of material but is really not systematic. It's really like scattered on social media websites and you know, business registers and stuff. So it's really my job, I think was more to try to make sense of this host. This big amount of stuff that is out there in a very scattered way. I don't know if Liam wants to add anything.
- [10:08]
D
No, no, that's quite. Pretty much everything.
- [10:11]
B
Well, this is really. I was quite impressed by this work because I understand it's a very sensitive subject matter to investigate. And you've mentioned the methodology that you used to compile the whole work. Given the sensitive nature of interviewing survivors and the necessity of navigating dangerous and these criminal networks, what was the single biggest methodological challenge your team faced when you're doing fieldwork? Gathering credible evidence for this book to make sure is authentic to and to present in front of the authors, in front of the audience.
- [11:04]
D
Thank you for the question. Actually, well, everybody know that. Well, scam compound, they. Not everybody, but then most of us scam compound offers like a private prison. If I can say, like it's a war off like heavily guarded and embedded in will stop corruption and organized crime. So yes, you cannot just walk in with notebook and start asking questions. So very early on we realized that survivors are the key. They hold the most crucial information and without them, this book simply wouldn't exist. But yeah, the challenges come to talking to them. So first, building trust was extremely difficult. Many people were deceived into or sold into these compounds by someone they know, sometimes even their friend or relatives. So naturally, they are deeply cautious about outsiders. They were hurt, they are traumatized, they don't trust people. And then another layer is some have been forced to commit illegal acts like scam scam others or helping recruit new victims. So that creates an enormous sense of shame and fear. They worry about being judged or criminalized. So opening up takes time. Plus as I mentioned, the trauma, you cannot just rush into the interview when someone is still in crisis. We work very closely with NGOs providing on the ground support. So we want to make sure that our first priority was always safety and recovery, making sure survivors could return home and stabilize. And only later, when they feel ready and they still willing to talk to us, we can start this in depth conversation. And that's why this research took time. One of the reasons, well, we started in 2022 and the book come out in 2025. In several cases we had known survivors for months or even years before a formal interview ever took place. But it's just a process that require patient trust and consistency. And when we also passed about the verification. So in terms of that, we didn't treat survivors as witness on trial. So we understand that memory on the trauma can be fragmented. So what we do is that's current expertise of all of us. Right. We cross check the accounts with e.g. nGO records, scam compound data, police contacts and testimony from best teams from a lot of people that are working like make this book happen. So that process combining with the experience with multiple sources is how we try to build credible evidence in that deeply opaque environment while still keep ethics and humanity at the center of our work.
- [14:18]
B
Okay, Ivan has anything else to add about this?
- [14:24]
C
No, no, I think Lynn covered it very well. No, I wouldn't. I mean like maybe one thing, I mean like is linked to what I said before. Basically that there is a big amount of information out there about scam compound, the scam industry between telegram channels, social media recruitment, job ads and stuff like that. I mean like it's really a lot of things. So I think a methodological challenge would be trying to make sense of this huge amount of contradictory and really scattered material that is out there. Is not, I would say one expected crime is something difficult to investigate because there is not enough information. In this case we have even too much. So the methodological challenge, one of the methodological challenges besides engaging with the victims would be really to select what to follow, where to dig and stuff. So that's quite an important challenge, I think.
- [15:20]
B
Yes, since Lin just mentioned about the victims. Because the book also discuss a very complex idea about of victimhood and it touch upon the victim offender overlap. Since you mentioned the shame and the ideal victim stereotype. How do these nuanced perspectives challenge conventional anti trafficking narratives and the ways authorities or the Public perceive those trapped in scan compounds.
- [15:58]
D
So the. Well the two things. So the first like is about the ideal victims. So in both at least Chinese and Vietnamese context. So that's where we did the in depth like research or like we also find therapies. So we found that there's a strong construct between the public image of an ideal victim and actual profile of those exported in scam compound. So an ideal victim in the eyes of the public and media is someone who's visibly vulnerable. Like perhaps a woman, an elderly person, some or minor. And especially like essentially is someone like perceived to be above real approach. So this figure is imaged as innocent, passive and harmed by a stranger of in the context of early like they're clearly like evil criminal actors. But that the victims in STEM compound do not match this profile at all. Mostly are very young, healthy and physically capable. Many were recruited by people they know. And it. Well it is also mentioned that many Chinese might might have some general idea of what they are going to work probably like in a casino or call center or something like not that legal like in a great industry. And then talking about that it brought up another thing. Another layer of this complicity of a victim is the perpetrator victim overlap. So we have in this spectrum to the very extreme end. We have to like the ideal victim as what I said the minor they don't know have. They don't know anything about what's going to happen. And then the another ant is they are the criminals. They know they are going to do the scam and they want to profit. And then they want to maybe go back to their country of origin. Right. But then in between there are two types. And then so the first type are they might. Well they might know involve something like not completely like legal. But then when once they are in the scam compound inside and then they were bitten, they were tortured and so they asked for help. But they're they're identity coming from kind of if you can say criminal and then two victim and then that's another type is the victims they are so they were trafficked. They don't know what's going on. But they want in the scam compound they have to do crime. And in some cases we know that the scam boss will ask the VPN that if you recruit five people can replace you and we can release you. And then they do that and they got punished for that. So the majority people win it are actually these two types. And this is crucial like especially for those criminal turn to big team knowing what they might involve are not completely legal, doesn't mean knowing the reality. So they are not aware of the violence, surveillance and debt bondage that awakened them. And they didn't know that they would be locked in the compound or working 16 hour shifts on the threat of beating, electric shocks or even sexual harassment or assault. Well, and I'm not trying to undermine the suffer from the scam victim and that even another layer of complicity. During my work, I always think about the question I got asked by a police officer and he requests me to consider the victim in another side. I remember he asked me like, if we give support to the victim of human trafficking for first criminality, how we can face the victim that lost their life or their life savings, how to balance it is a dilemma. So all this complicity added, they make the rescue effort, the victim identification, the support after care support super difficult. And the sad thing is the victims are on both ends and the real criminals are invisible.
- [20:24]
B
Yeah, from what you describe, I think it's quite closely connected to the concept of the compound capitalism that you discussed or you coined it or erased in the book. Because yes, it's not just about victims or a scam, it's more about. Because he's already established as a capitalist mindset. Could you elaborate on what makes this form of predatory capitalism distinct, particularly regarding its combination of spatial exception, extreme labor control and data extraction? As you said, how they use the headcounts to recall new members to exchange for their freedoms compared to historical or other contemporary forms of exploitation.
- [21:26]
C
Yeah, sure, I can take this question. I think, I mean like a lot of people, journalists especially, and we also use the term sometimes. I've been talking about cyber slavery to discuss the scam compounds. So this is the new term that has come to be used in reference to the scam compounds in Southeast Asia. And we also use the term sometime and we do not object to that. I mean like we think is a catchy term that has some analytical use. But when we use cyber slavery, there is a risk that we look at this phenomenon as something completely new and we do not think that's the case by coining the idea of the concept of compound capitalism, Basically we're trying to highlight some continuities. We were trying to highlight some elements of this phenomenon that have a long history. So as you mentioned, the four elements, basically the first one is extraterritoriality. That is the way the scam compounds operate is like they are like extraterritorial unit where the scam bosses and compound managers they basically decide what goes and what doesn't go. Basically, they have absolute power and it's like an error of exception. So very much similar to Special Economic Zone, but much, much more extreme. And the second element is the idea of the. The idea of extreme exploitation, labor exploitation. And we look back at some example in history about, for instance, the mining the mine compounds in Southern Africa during apartheid and before we look at this kind of situation, we look at the dormitory regime in China. Of course, the distinction is not exactly the same, obviously, because here in the compound, we are talking about slavery, but we are looking at other forms of labor exploitation that in some ways mirror some aspect of the slave. The economic dynamics and labor dynamics. We find the compounds. And then, of course, surveillance capitalism, the idea of data extraction. We see these operations as another manifestation, again, very extreme, of the dynamics that we can see with other tech companies, like how they manipulate, filling and they extract data from people for profit. Of course, again, is not exactly the same, but there are some continuities, there are some similarities. And finally, the last element is the reliance on a class of dispossessed people. People who have been immiserated during COVID many of them at least, people who cannot find other ways to make a living, which is what we found with many of the workers in the compounds. They are not this new type of slaves. They're not educated. They're not rich people who are greedy. They are not simply looking for money. Many of them, I'm not saying all, but many of them, they are really impoverished people who are tricked into the compounds because they do not have identities or. Yeah, so this is basically to say again that, yeah, sky compounds are a new phenomenon, but the roots of this kind of extreme exploitation can be found in other places and in other histories.
- [24:45]
B
Yes, from what Ivan was saying, like this kind of compound capitalist was actually not new. I think what changes is with the advancement of technology, because you talk about it, the changes happen in the recruitment methods and other forms of any forms. Like in chapter two, it details numerous recruitment methods, from deceptive job ads to exploitation of personal relationships. Especially based on your research, which methods are currently most prevalent and how have recruitment strategies adapted as public awareness of this pandemic has grown?
- [25:35]
C
I think there are still several channels through which people are recruited into the compounds. We don't have to forget that many people enter willingly. So that's something that we always need to keep in mind. If we are looking instead of the people who are tricked into the compounds, I think the main channel, I would say is deceptive job ads that still remain quite preponderant. It's quite common for people to see a job advertised online and then apply for it and maybe sometimes even go through a whole series of interviews and checks and then finding out after they are hired that this is actually a trick and they find themselves in the compound. That's still quite common. And if we look at how things change, I think scammers, of course, are very smart. And you know, like, it's not that common to find these job ads that promise you an amazing job with such a high wage that is to be so high that it is unbelievable. A lot of these job ads, they are maybe a bit better than the job they propose, are a bit better than the average maybe, maybe they're a bit better than what we will find normally on the market, but not that much. So you can easily be deceived and believe this is a legitimate offer. So that's how they scam you. I mean, like, and also there is this idea that, okay, the job offer, this kind of ads, they're all in the IT sector and they have the same kind of characteristics. For instance, you need to be able to type, you need to have some basic literacy. You are not required to have any experience. But it's not exactly like that. We have evidence, we have stories of people who have been doing, who have been recruited into the compounds, who have been tricked into the compounds simply by applying for jobs as construction workers. Normal, ordinary construction workers from China applying for a job in China and then ending up in the compounds. So it literally can be anyone and the job are deceptive. Yes, but I mean, the level of sophistication at this point is such that it's very difficult to be able to distinguish between a deceptive ad and a real one, which makes it very challenging for the people who fall for them, but also for platforms to deal with them. It's not that it's so easy that you can develop an algorithm and then immediately flag what are the that are deceptive. So that's still, I would say still very important as an area of action for platforms working together with NGOs, Civic Socioc and victims to try to understand how to deal with I would say. Lynn, do you have anything to add?
- [28:11]
D
No, it's basically everything. Maybe I just add some examples to let people know how it can. The ad varies. So we got this this year. A lot of cases that they. It's actually not job job ad. They are. These people are having debt in their own country and then so the, the scammers will tell them that oh you are. If you come to Thailand or Cambodia, we can help you open companies. And then with the company you can take, you can get loan in your country of origin. So some of the people took the opportunity and then they checked even with like maybe lawyer or like professionals like to. To see if it's legitimate and then they found it's okay. So they came to Cambodia and then got kidnapped in the airport. That's what we are finding these days. So it really can be anyone.
- [29:07]
B
Well from. From your description on the explanation is it. It does seems like like a very kind of well organized a network for. And it's hard for people to really notice what they're getting into. I think in your chapters three and four the narratives just move from detailing the experiences of individuals involved in cyber scans to examining the organizational structures that sustain these operations. How does this progression help readers understand the tension between personal choice? I say I want to make money, I want to have a business. And systematic coercions within these criminal networks. How would you look at the organizational structures that sustain these operations?
- [30:10]
D
Okay, so basically the scam companies when we talk about first of when we talk about scam compound like it just probably like a complex like the hosting different companies and the big one can. Can have like 20, 30 like 50 companies inside. So those scam companies are functioning as a kind of like corporate style factory if I can say. So these operations borrow heavily from like corporate management system or military management system that combine these two. So labor is pretty magnetized. So hierarchy civilian and punishment. And workers are divided to like teams, leaders and trainers. And so with like N style like roll calls they will do in the morning go run around the the compound. And then they have a daily quota and even motivational like slogans that you probably can find in some media they are saying yeah, in the morning they will shout out the slogan of some companies will do. And people like violated the company rules will be punished or even field. The idea is to extract maximum productivity through discipline and fear. And this is physical part like abuse and punishment. But at the same time like psychological control is just as powerful as the physical control. So traffic workers are told they own enormous debt for their recruitment, transport and accommodation. And their debts are growing each day. If they don't do GAM successfully the company will also tell bitgam that they're already criminals so they cannot go back to their own country of origin. So just to make them comply. And then they're also using published beating like public Beating, sorry, public punishment. So we got testimonies a lot saying that if they fail to meet their quota, you'll be asked to be in front of the whole company, normally the 100, 200 people and beat heavily like almost death. And then that's the message sent to the other co workers that if you don't obey then this is, this will be your result. And at the same time there is a manipulation through reward. So like they will give you small privileges. You can go for example, go out to eat with the management team, good restaurant or phone access. Sometimes they will also offer like pursuit and gambling opportunities. Those were offered to those who perform well. It kind of creates like it picks victims against each other and the standard illusion of, of choice. So if you comply you will have this and if not, then you're going to die. So it's a management technique that mirror well of course the foundation is criminal and then if you don't do that in company then you won't die. But then it really mirror the corporate incentive. It's just in an environment of extreme coercion. So all of this maximize profit in these two ways like it keeps labor costs near zero and these workers are unpaid or paid off and endless debt. So it maintains the constant output of fair competition and civilian.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah, I think people the for anyone who would be shocked or it feel unbelievable, unbelievable that such a large scale scam network never really or get attention from the government or any authorities because it's become a scandemic, it's growing so big and so deep, it's so complex in some sense. But in chapter five you also highlight the structural barriers like weak laws and the restrictive political climate. And because asean, because they have so many different, many countries has different political climate as well. If advising ASEAN policymakers, what one regional law or coordinated policy would you think it's helpful to prioritize to address these challenges?
- [35:09]
D
That's a difficult one. I think from my perspective if I had to highlight one single regional measure because I'm doing survivor support. So it would be the creation of a standardized ASEAN wide Victim Identification and referral protocol. One that specifically recognize people forced into gaining all criminality in general as like victim of trafficking rather than like offenders. So right now the biggest obstacle isn't a lack of law, but a lack of consistency. So each country, and then many include China, that they have signed the Parliament Convention, which is the anti Human Trafficking Convention, but then they applies its own definition procedures and then the way of identification and the criteria identification. So that means someone rescued in Thailand might be recognized as a victim while someone in Cambodia or Myanmar is treated as an immigration violator or criminal suspect. But we do have this kind of cases that that was a victim from Zimbabwe. I can give this case. And he was officially identified by his own country at the him of human trafficking. And then the embassy is also giving the document back up the statement. But then he was trafficked to Southeast Asia. I won't name the country. But then that country's government just denied and then instead he is an immigration violator and sent him to immigration detention. So these are very sad. And he already lost the money and then he has to stay in detention and have criminal record. That shouldn't happen. So a regional framework changed that by setting a standard for identification screening and a referral backed up by data sharing mechanism and independent monitoring with others within the region and beyond the region. This would also help depoliticize the process. So once there's an ASEAN indoors protocol, national entrepreneur would have a shared reference point that transit domestic pressure to elite interest. I mean it won't solve every problem, but it would make it much harder for government to deny protection on political grounds. So anyway, in summary, just like a regional rights based identification system could be a turning point, one of the turning points. So it was shifted the response from criminalization to protection and giving civil society and online responders the legitimacy they need to act.
- [38:12]
B
Yes, of course things won't change overnight and we do hope there are more kind of laws and changes to be able to help to improve the environment. However, on the other hand, beyond law enforcement and policy changes, it's not just about having the law of policy because it's also about deeper societal conditions like the bad economy at the moment, desperation and lack of opportunity, especially for young peoples and the loneliness that makes both scammers and victims vulnerable. Yes, even there's scammers, there's still victims. Like what we discussed before on the victim offender overlap, what broader societal shifts might be still needed to address the root causes exploited by this industry, you think?
- [39:21]
C
Well, I mean like when we say it is about the underlying desperation, loneliness and everything, we point at a broader situation that is typical of this late state of capitalism. So of course we don't. We wish we had a solution, we wish things were different. But sadly at this stage it's very difficult to see an alternative given the current political situation in not only Saudi state, but globally. It would require rethinking our societies. Our point here is that scams are not going to go away. They are Grounded in this kind of bigger societal issues that are typical of our time. Loneliness, isolation, atomization are trends that are not going to go away unless we rethink what it means to be people in our society. But the way things are going seems not to be very positive for this kind of reflection. At the moment we were just pointing out how unless we change broader dynamics and the way our society works, this kind of exploitation, this kind of desperation, this kind of criminal actions are going to be here for a long time and they're only going to get worse. So that's my point. There need to be a broader reflection on the root causes. It's not about cracking down, it's not only about arresting a few campaigns. That's very important. I'm not saying it isn't, but it's not only that. We also need to reflect on why so many people fall for these scammers. We need to reflect why so many people fall for these kind of jobs that bring them to the scam compounds. If we don't have that kind of reflection, if we don't start that kind of reflection, I mean we are always trying to put out fires. It's not a systemic solution. Like for instance, right now it is old fashioned to do crackdowns, to shut down on one compound or another. But we see that that never works. I mean like it's good on the short term, but we see that simply scammers move around, the industry is very mobile, so they move around. So if we don't start thinking altogether all the people who have a stake in this industry situation, which is basically everyone, everyone at this stage, if we don't start thinking how to deal with that on a longer term, it's just like we are not going anywhere. And that connects also to what Lynn said before. I mean we need to maybe depoliticize in some ways. In some ways, of course we need to remember the responsibility, political responsibility of certain government elites, protective umbrellas in these countries or others. But if we don't deep politicize and we don't realize that this is a common challenge for everyone that requires a common reflection on where we are going as societies, as people, as human beings, we are really going to get stuck in a loop here. So that's basically what we wrote was an invitation to start this kind of reflection again. I wish we had solutions, but it's like, yeah, more is like a wish at this point. I don't know if Lynn wants to add something.
- [42:34]
D
No, it's quite good. I mean, yeah, we need Further societal shift, like things like inclusive economic policy that create faith, the inside of education systems that teach digital and financial literacy. I think at this point very important as a prevention and community network that reduce social isolation, both online, offline. But then one thing probably I can add is about my research focus on technology. So I would love to. We need to rethink how technology shapes aspiration. Many of the victims and even the recruiters are people who believed the Internet could change their lives. So building digital resilience and ethical awareness, especially among young people, has to be part of the prevention strategy.
- [43:29]
B
Thank you. Thank you both for today and thank you for the book because I think it's really timely and I hope this just the beginning or, you know, you won't. And then more and more people would get involved to examine it and to learn the deep logics behind it and to discover other sides of the society to really help us understand us a bit more. I think Ling just mentioned a bit about her research project, but I still want to ask, would you mind telling us what's the next for you regarding your own research or regarding this research? Will you continue doing more works on it or anything else?
- [44:25]
C
Well, I would say that, I mean like four for me, I think also for us, the book is not the end of the project. It's not the culmination of the project, just the beginning. This book lays out the land. It tries to explain the industry, where it came from and what we have been dealing with, what civil society, what victims, what families of the survivors have been dealing with. And we have been trying to again, systematize and contextualize the information that we, we could find. But to me, I think to us, this is a starting point. The industry, the online scamming industry keeps changing, keeps adapting, keeps moving. So we look at Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and the Philippines. But as we all know, they're spreading. These kind of operations are branching out. They're moving in a lot of new locations, they're adopting new technologies. Everything is shifting on a daily basis. So is not at a book like ours. Yeah, we captured the picture of the situation, I would say even now. But things are changing and people need to keep following. And in my case, my perspective, I plan to continue to do this if I'm allowed to do so.
- [45:37]
D
Yeah, for me, the theme, like it doesn't start and we, we have been like calling different sectors to work together. We are researcher and I part of NGO sector. But then what about the tech companies, blockchain analysis companies like Financial Institute, like Internet Service providers. Those people, we haven't researched enough what they can do to help combating this crime. So I'm definitely going to do more research on this. And also my research has a gender angle. I think in both English and Chinese media most of the testimony are from male, but female dynamics are quite different from how male experience in compound. So I also want to pick out more and then let their voice to be heard by the public.
- [46:40]
B
It all sounds really great and it's really what academia needs right now to work with communities to know what's happening in the society and what's wrong with it. And I think for me personally I will hope that you can get more new works done in various or but I know it takes ages to collect data and stuff. I do hope can advise you again if you have new works out. Thank you for being on the show today. It's a very deep or sad topic to talk about, but it's also very timely. I had a great time listening to the stories that you had during the work, during the whole process. I want to just say thank you and but now we must say goodbye to our audience now. Goodbye.
- [47:35]
C
Thank you.
- [47:36]
D
Thank you.
- [47:37]
C
It.