Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Ivan Franceschini et al., "Scam: Inside Southeast Asia’s Cybercrime Compounds" (Verso Books, 2025)
Date: November 20, 2025
Participants:

• Host: Bing ("B")
• Ivan Franceschini ("C") – Lecturer at Asia Institute, University of Melbourne
• Ling Li ("D") – PhD candidate, University of Venice, anti-human trafficking practitioner

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode explores the book Scam: Inside Southeast Asia’s Cybercrime Compounds, co-authored by Ivan Franceschini, Ling Li, and Mark Po. The discussion provides an in-depth analysis of the inner workings, history, and human cost of Southeast Asia’s cyber scam compounds. It addresses the intersection of technology, human trafficking, labor exploitation, and organized crime—with a focus on how these compounds operate, how victims are recruited and managed, and the broader societal and policy implications.

Meet the Authors: Backgrounds and Expertise

Timestamp: 02:15–03:29

• Ivan Franceschini ("C")

  • Background in labor rights in China, social mobilization, and labor NGOs.
  • Recent focus on Chinese transnational crime and the online scam industry, especially in Cambodia.

• Ling Li ("D")

  • PhD student researching technology’s role in modern slavery and human trafficking in East and Southeast Asia.
  • Practical experience supporting human trafficking victims in Cambodia and Thailand.

Motivation and Origins of the Book

Timestamp: 03:47–06:21

• The idea emerged post-COVID (mid-2022), as Ivan revisited Cambodia and witnessed drastic changes around Sihanoukville.
• Ivan met Ling by chance; their shared interests and complementary expertise (research, fieldwork, data triangulation) led to the collaborative project.
• Mark Po, the third co-author, brought deep experience on Chinese investment in Cambodia and tracking criminal groups.
• "The idea was not framed as a book at the beginning...We decided to work together, begin to collect information, look around, try to understand what was going on..." (C, 05:20)

Collaboration and Division of Labor

Timestamp: 07:01–10:11

• Ling: Primary contact with survivors and NGOs; built trust, collected firsthand testimonies.

  “Her access, her work on the ground...that’s, I think, what makes our work stand out.” (C, 08:17)

• Mark: Expert in connecting dots between data sources, identifying criminal networks, and rigorous fact-checking.
• Ivan: Coordinated writing, provided academic analysis, and synthesized large volumes of scattered, raw information.

Methodological Challenges

Timestamp: 11:03–14:18

• Main Challenge: Gaining trust from traumatized survivors wary of outsiders and fearing criminalization.
• Required patience, long-term relationships, and strict ethical standards.
• Cross-verified survivor accounts with NGO records, police contacts, and other sources.

  “Survivors are the key. They hold the most crucial information and without them, this book simply wouldn’t exist.” (D, 11:13)

• Another major hurdle: Navigating overwhelming, contradictory information online and filtering credible evidence.

  “Methodological challenge...was really to select what to follow, where to dig and stuff.” (C, 14:51)

Rethinking Victimhood: Beyond Simple Categories

Timestamp: 15:19–20:23

• Challenge to “Ideal Victim” Mythos:
  • Public and media favor the image of innocent, passive, and helpless victims (e.g., minors, elderly).
  • Most scam compound victims are young, physically capable, and sometimes initially complicit—often recruited by acquaintances.
• Victim–Perpetrator Overlap:
  • Many victims are forced to commit crimes themselves as a survival mechanism.
  • Recruiting others is sometimes their only path to freedom.

  “The majority people win it are actually these two types (victim then criminal, or vice versa)...the real criminals are invisible.” (D, 19:52)

• Complexity Implications: Complicates rescue efforts, victim identification, and societal/police perceptions.

“Compound Capitalism”: The Scam Compound Model

Timestamp: 21:25–24:44

• Concept: Compounds reflect a type of “predatory capitalism”—not entirely new, but rooted in historical forms of extraterritorial, highly exploitative labor control.
• Key Features:
  1. Spatial Exception: Compounds act as “extraterritorial units”—bosses wield unchecked authority, mirroring but exceeding special economic or free trade zones.
  2. Extreme Labor Control: Inspired by historical mine compounds, Chinese dormitory regimes, etc.—with forced labor, militarized discipline, and psychological coercion.
  3. Surveillance & Data Extraction: Intensive data monitoring, manipulation, and personal information theft—paralleling aspects of modern surveillance capitalism.
  4. Disposable Workforce: Compounds prey on marginalized, impoverished, and desperate individuals, many destabilized by COVID-19.

  “Scam compounds are a new phenomenon, but the roots...can be found in other places and in other histories.” (C, 24:27)

Recruitment: Methods and Adaptation

Timestamp: 24:44–29:07

• Deceptive Job Ads Remain Prevalent:
  • Victims lured by offers only slightly better than what's typical—avoiding outright suspicion.
  • Ads increasingly sophisticated, targeting even for positions such as construction workers.

  “The level of sophistication at this point is such that it’s very difficult to be able to distinguish between a deceptive ad and a real one...” (C, 27:12)

• Expanding Tactics:
  • Fake offers of assistance with starting businesses, debt relief, or even legal help.
  • Victims sometimes verify offers through professionals and still fall prey.

  “We got this this year...people are having debt... scammers will tell them...we can help you open companies...they came to Cambodia and then got kidnapped in the airport.” (D, 28:22)

Compound Structure: Organization and Control

Timestamp: 30:10–34:03

• Corporate-Military Hybrid Management:
  • Compounds structured like factories with teams, leaders, trainers, quotas, and even motivational slogans.
  • “Extreme productivity” achieved through fear (public beatings, psychological manipulation), debt bondage, and reward systems.

  “Labor is pretty magnetized. So hierarchy, civilian, and punishment...it kind of creates like...the standard illusion of choice. So if you comply, you have this; if not, you’re going to die.” (D, 31:12)

• End Result: Close-to-zero labor costs, relentless output, and sustained captive labor through coerced competition among victims.

Why So Hard to Prosecute and Prevent?

Timestamp: 34:03–39:21

• Legal & Political Barriers:
  • Fragmented definitions and inconsistent identification of victims versus offenders across ASEAN.
• Recommended Regional Policy:

  “Creation of a standardized ASEAN-wide Victim Identification and referral protocol...recognize people forced into scamming as victims of trafficking rather than offenders.” (D, 35:17)

  • Would prevent criminalization of victims, standardize screening, and facilitate cross-border cooperation.
• Emphasis: Not a lack of laws, but lack of consistent implementation and political will.

Beyond Law: Societal and Structural Roots

Timestamp: 39:21–43:28

• Deep Societal Precarity:
  • Economic desperation, loneliness, and lack of opportunity drive both perpetrators and victims into the scam industry.
• Necessity of Broader Change:
  • Genuine progress requires rethinking the socio-economic model, boosting inclusive growth, education (digital, financial literacy), and social solidarity.

  “Scams are not going to go away...They are grounded in...bigger societal issues...If we don’t start that kind of reflection...we are always trying to put out fires. It’s not a systemic solution.” (C, 41:10)

• Role of Technology:
  • Technology both fulfills and distorts aspirations; building ethical and digital resilience is key, especially for youth.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Victim Complexity:

  “Knowing what they might involve...doesn't mean knowing the reality. They are not aware of the violence, surveillance, and debt bondage that await them..." (D, 18:55)

• On Methodology:

  “Without them, this book simply wouldn’t exist...[building trust]...require patience, trust, and consistency.” (D, 11:17)

• On Broader Change:

  “Unless we change broader dynamics...this kind of exploitation...is going to be here for a long time and they're only going to get worse.” (C, 41:20)

What’s Next? Future Research Directions

Timestamp: 44:24–46:40

• Ivan: Will continue monitoring the evolving scam industry as it migrates and adapts.
• Ling: Aims to study roles of multiple sectors (tech, finance, ISPs), gender dimensions, and to bring underrepresented voices (especially women) to light.

  “Female dynamics are quite different from how male experience in compound. So I also want to pick out more and then let their voice to be heard by the public." (D, 46:09)

Conclusion

The episode peels back the layers of Southeast Asia’s cyber scam compounds, revealing the deep complexities that blur lines between victim and perpetrator, the adaptability of predatory organizations, and the failures of both policy and social structures to address root causes. The authors call for comprehensive action—policy reform, social change, and deeper reflection on what creates vulnerability in modern societies.