Jakub Gortat, "Remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post-war Film" (1945-1955) (Brill, 2025)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary:

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Jakub Gortat, "Remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post-war Film (1945-1955)" (Brill, 2025)
Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Jenna Pittman
Guest: Jakob Gortat

---

Overview

In this episode, Jenna Pittman interviews Jakob Gortat about his new book, Remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post-war Film (1945-1955). The conversation explores how Austrian films of the early post-war period reflected, reframed, or neglected Austria's complicity in National Socialism. Gortat examines the narratives, styles, and audience reception of these films, highlighting how popular memory and mythmaking intersected with cinema, and why Austria's post-war filmic approach to its Nazi past diverged notably from Germany's.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Jakob Gortat’s Background and Research Motivation

• Gortat has long focused on Austrian and German cinema, especially how both cultures address their Nazi pasts in film.
• He found a scholarly gap regarding Austria's cinematic engagement with its history, in contrast to the robust literature on German memory and film.
  • “No one was actually interested in the case of Austria, even though it was a country that also shared the responsibility of National Socialism.” (03:18)

Why Film? The Role of Cinema in Post-War Memory (04:05)

• Film was a vital, popular medium in Austria from 1945-1955—a social place and source of entertainment, even comfort amidst post-war hardship.
• Gortat assessed the popularity of films using archival theater records and press reviews.
• His central argument: Post-war Austrians were reluctant to confront their recent Nazi past, but a minority of films did treat these themes—albeit cautiously, with an eye not to alienate audiences still intimately connected to that era.

Core Narratives in Austrian Post-war Films (07:31)

• Most films avoided the Nazi era, instead glorifying the Habsburg monarchy and illustrious composers, promoting a nostalgic, idyllic image of the nation.
• When films did touch on Nazism, they echoed the “first victim” myth:
  • The Moscow Declaration (1943) positioned Austria as the first victim of Hitler, a notion quickly embraced for national comfort, while downplaying Austrian complicity.
  • “Austrian cultural elites, including filmmakers, didn’t want to show this co-responsibility…not to mention the Holocaust, for example.” (09:19)

Austria vs. Germany: Divergent Cinematic Memories (10:44)

• German “rubble films”: Focused on bombing aftermaths, returning soldiers, and the country’s physical and moral destruction.
• Austrian films: Avoided showing ruins or trauma, instead conveying optimism—war conceived as a fleeting catastrophe overcome by national character.
• “The Second World War was reduced to a very short event... like a catastrophe. And then thanks to the hardworking Austrians, this situation was very soon improved.” (11:40)

The Myth of Innocence and Avoidance of Complicity (13:04)

• By centering ordinary people or resistance narratives, films created distance from national responsibility and avoided depicting widespread complicity.
• Complicity and responsibility for Nazi crimes were largely ignored or only indirectly acknowledged in character choices.
  • “The best way is to focus on ordinary people… And this was possible, but still in a very, very limited way as I wanted to show in my book.” (13:40)

Post-War Divisions: Austria, West & East Germany (14:51)

• Austria remained under Allied occupation longer than Germany and prioritized neutrality.
• No war films were made in Austria between 1949-54, unlike West Germany, which produced war dramas reflecting on the Eastern Front and POW experiences.
• Two key Austrian war films in the mid-50s:
  • The Last Bridge (1954)
  • The Last Ten Days (1955)
  • “After 1955, those films weren’t made anymore because everyone was enjoying the miracle of 1955, the so-called State Treaty. Finally we are free, independent and neutral. So let's put the past on the shelf and let's focus on the future.” (17:16)

Types of Post-War Austrian Films Studied (19:45)

• Gortat classified films into three broad groups:
  1. Films with Nazi past as background only: Marginal, non-central references.
  2. Heimkehrer (Returnee) films: Focused on men returning from captivity to familial and social disruption.
  3. Anti-Nazi resistance films: Visually rich in Nazi iconography; centered on ordinary Austrians resisting the regime.
• Selection methodology: Combined historical cinema literature review with close analysis for relevant content.

Analytical Approach: Film Form, Reception, and Popularity (23:08)

• Gortat provided complex filmic analysis:

  • Narrative structure, main characters, dramaturgy

  • Attention to style: Influence of American film noir, late German expressionism, creation of atmospheres of fear and suspicion

  • Reception studies: Both box office data (theater runs) and critical reviews, finding some films easily forgotten, others widely embraced across Vienna (screened in all districts).

  • “Some of them were redolent of the American noir cinema or very, very late expressionist German cinema. So you can see, for example, a city when it's very dark... the atmosphere of fear.” (23:30)

Influence of Filmmakers’ Backgrounds (26:32)

• Many film professionals, including actors, directors, and producers, had been involved in Nazi-era cinema.
  • Example: Karl Harbel (head of Wien-Film) continued his career seamlessly after the war.
  • Example: Paola Vesseli, a prominent actress associated with Nazi propaganda films, continued acting post-war.
• Involvement of less-compromised filmmakers, like director G.W. Pabst, often led to more critical representations of the Nazi past in film.
  • “So the question is whether we are able to come to terms with the Nazi past, providing that so many of the filmmakers were involved.” (28:15)

Standout Films: Recommendations (30:01)

• Gortat’s top picks for listeners:
  1. The Last Ten Days (Letzte Tage, 1955, dir. Pabst):
     • A dramatization of Hitler’s final days. Influential on later films like Downfall (2004).
     • “It is a very, very good movie that shows the end of the war and the end of the world for the Nazis…” (30:29)
  2. Angel with the Trombone (Der Engel mit der Posaune, 1948):
     • Chronicles Austrian history from the 1880s to WWII; Nazi era is compressed into roughly 20 minutes.
     • “Although the narrative extends for about 60 years, the Nazi era is reduced to only 20 minutes.” (31:42)

Broader Historical and Cultural Contribution (32:46)

• Gortat emphasizes his book’s challenge to the “first victim” myth, highlighting Austria’s responsibility, antisemitism, and national denial.
• Points out a further misconception: some films historically considered German were actually Austrian (often due to popularity in Germany).
• “This myth is only a myth … after reading your book you might be aware that it was not the case that many were involved…” (33:06)

The Sound of Music and Popular Memory (35:31)

• Host cites The Sound of Music as the version of post-war Austria most familiar to American audiences, criticizing its perpetuation of the “first victim” narrative.
  • Gortat agrees that popular film representations deeply influence public memory and historical understanding.

Upcoming Research (36:55)

• Gortat’s new project will analyze reception of popular Austrian “Habsburg films” (including the Sissi films) in Germany and elsewhere, probing why German critics—unlike those in other countries—were captivated by “kitsch” portrayals of Austria.

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “No one was actually interested in the case of Austria, even though it was a country that also shared the responsibility of National Socialism.”
  —Jakob Gortat (03:18)
• “They very eagerly picked up the idea to present Austria as the first victim of the Nazi aggression… This conviction of being the first victim … was a myth they really believed in.”
  —Jakob Gortat (09:00; 33:06)
• “The Second World War was reduced to a very short event…like a catastrophe…thanks to the hardworking Austrians, this situation was very soon improved.”
  —Jakob Gortat (11:40)
• “Although the narrative extends for about 60 years, the Nazi era is reduced to only 20 minutes… it was possible to talk about this past, but not too long.”
  —Jakob Gortat (31:42)
• “So the question is whether we are able to come to terms with the Nazi past, providing that so many of the filmmakers were involved.”
  —Jakob Gortat (28:15)

---

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------| | 01:53 | Gortat’s background & genesis of the project | | 04:05 | Central argument & importance of film medium | | 07:31 | Construction of narrative & “first victim” myth| | 10:44 | Austria vs. Germany in post-war film narratives| | 14:51 | Comparison with East and West Germany | | 19:45 | Film selection methodology & groups | | 23:08 | Analytical approach: style, reception, popularity| | 26:32 | Filmmakers’ backgrounds and influence | | 30:01 | Recommended films | | 32:46 | Broader scholarly contribution | | 35:31 | On The Sound of Music and mythmaking | | 36:55 | Gortat's next project |

---

Tone

The episode is scholarly but accessible, with Pittman bringing warmth and personal curiosity and Gortat delivering sober, precise analysis. Both are enthusiastic about filling gaps in public and academic understanding of Austrian post-war memory and film.

---

Summary Takeaways

• Austrian post-war cinema largely perpetuated narratives of innocence, avoidance, and a glorious past, echoing political realities and societal reluctance to confront complicity in Nazi crimes.
• A handful of films, often with international connections or critical directors (notably G.W. Pabst), offer more nuanced or critical perspectives.
• The myth of Austria as “first victim” of Nazism was both domestically convenient and fostered by Allied policy—not just a product of local denial.
• Gortat’s work fills a vital gap in both film studies and memory studies, challenging German-centric narratives and revealing how Austria crafted its post-war self-image through film.

---

Transcript

[Jenna Pittman]

Hello, everybody.

[Marshall Po]

This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Jenna Pittman]

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the New Books Network. I'm Jenna Pittman, a host for the Network. Today we'll be talking to Jakob Gortat about his new book, Remembering National Socialism, An Austrian post war film, 1945-1955, published by Brill in 2025. In remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post War Film, Jacob Port Hat Extension explores the narrative and memory of Austrian elites in the emergence, development and consequences of National Socialism. Jakob, I'm so excited to welcome you to the show.

[Jakob Gortat]

Hello. Thank you for the invitation.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. I wonder if you could begin the episode just by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you came to write Remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post War Film.

[Jakob Gortat]

All right. So I've been working for a long time on Austrian cinema and German cinema. I've been always interested in how those countries dealt with the Nazi past, with the Holocaust, with the Nazi atrocities, how they shape the memory of those events, and particularly in cinema. So this project results from my very long interest in Austrian culture, in German culture, too, and the way those countries came to terms with the past. So the book that we are going to talk about is actually a result of a very long project that started approximately in 2018. I was always interested in German culture and German film, and then I realized that not very much was written on the same issues regarding the Nazi past in the Austrian context. There are a lot of articles, books, any other sources that are dedicated to the German memory, German cinema, many directors, many films. But in comparison to the great amount of films made in Germany and to the amount of literature that has been written until now, I noticed a kind of gap that no one was actually interested in the case of Austria, even though it was a country that also shared the responsibility of National Socialism. So this was the time that I came up with project in. And it ended. Yeah. Now in 2025, with the. With the book.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. Thank you. That's very interesting. And it must be very relieving to have this book completed, knowing that it's been such a. Such a long project. Kind of diving into the book a little bit, would you mind describing your argument in Remembering National Socialism and why film is such an effective way to approach memory and the historical narratives that have emerged from that film?

[Jakob Gortat]

Sure. So film is a very important medium, especially in the 1950s, 1940s, when the films that I analyzed were made. Everyone goes to the cinema. That's a very popular medium. And in the case of the very early post war reality cinema is also a place for social media, for entertainment. You can still notice the traces of the recent war. And sometimes people simply went to cinema just to get warm, because in the winter, with some cities bumped, it was also a very nice place to go and to stay warm for a while. So the films that I examined were made between 1945 and 1955, and some of them were very successful in terms of the box office and the number of moviegoers. I was able to reconstruct the popularity of those films on the basis of Archewell movie theater programs. So I studied archival press to see how popular those films were, how long they were screened, and then I could estimate whether they found their audience or not. And the argument is that even though the Austrians didn't want to talk about the recent past, because they would prefer to concentrate on contemporary issues on how to cope with the war and how to go on, how to move on after the war and how to later in the early 50s, how to enjoy the results of the economic growth, just like in West Germany, you could say there was a kind of an economic miracle. So no one was particularly interested in discovering or rediscovering this very recent past, because also due to the fact that a lot of people were involved in Nazi crimes, they were members of the Nazi party, nsdap, so they weren't very eager to talk about it. But still there were some filmmakers that found the topic interesting. They, they touched upon those issues. So the question was how those filmmakers dealt with this chapter of history, how to talk about it at the same time, not discouraging the potential audience. Yeah. From watching those movies.

[Jenna Pittman]

Not. That's very interesting. And I guess I've never considered that. I've watched a little bit of us like World War II era and post World War II films, but not so much in the Austrian and German case. And definitely not really paying attention to the detail of what topics they're focusing on. And maybe kind of creating some distance between the memory of war and the present moments. That's definitely very interesting. What is the narrative of historical film discourse in the case of post war Austria and what really shapes these discussions and where do these narratives come from?

[Jakob Gortat]

Okay, so the films that I examined were quite exceptional because there weren't many productions dedicated to the memory of the Nazi past. So when the Austrians, the Austrian filmmakers first of all wanted to show some interesting things related to the past, they picked up different topics, how to talk about, for example, more distant past. So they focused above all on the Habsburg Monarchy, on Franz Joseph and his wife Elisabeth, colloquially called Sisi. They made a number of films about famous composers like Schubert, Beethoven or Strauss. And they wanted to show the late 19th century or early 20th century as the most beautiful and the most splendid time in the history of Austria. So when they finally discovered that it is possible to talk about National Socialism, they didn't want to present their country or their nation as very involved in those atrocities in the reality. So according to this official conviction that was also politically motivated by the Allies, they very eagerly picked up the idea to present Austria as the first victim of the Nazi aggression. This was officially formulated in 1943 in the so called Moscow Declaration. So the Allied met in Moscow and they formulated some very important documents relating to the particular European countries. And in the case of Austria, they decided that Austria should be declared as the first victim of Hitler. At the same time, however, they reminded that Austria should bear responsibility for participation in the war at the side of Nazi Germany. So the second part was very soon forgotten and Austrian cultural elites, including filmmakers, didn't want to show this co responsibility. So according to this discourse, even if they talked about the Nazi time, there were some taboo topics not to talk too much, not to show some things, not to mention the Holocaust, for example. So it was allowed to talk about some persecution and the oppression of some Jewish people living in Vienna. But the involvement of ordinary people in this persecution or the events leading to the Holocaust were actually for maybe not forbidden, but weren't very popular.

[Jenna Pittman]

What Narado emerges in the very immediate post war period and how does that narrative differ from Austrian film to German film?

[Jakob Gortat]

It is a very good question because those two countries have a lot of things in common. But still you could notice some differences. And the first essential difference is that in Germany at the same time there were plenty of so called rubble films, films that showed the immediate results of the air war. So the Germans, the German filmmakers showed the ruins, the conditions of people living in those ruins and very, very sad stories about soldiers or prisoners of war returning from the captivity to Germany and destruction of both the country itself and the population. The Austrians didn't want to show this, they didn't show the ruins. There were only few films about those returnees or displaced persons and the topic was very marginally dealt with. So this is the first difference. And on the other hand we can see still a very optimistic message of those films that even if we suffer from the current situation, there is always hope and the relations between people among the families are going to be re established very soon. So the Second World War was reduced to a very short event that took a kind of. That resembled a natural force, that it showed up very suddenly like a catastrophe. And then thanks to the eagerness, thanks to the hardworking Austrians, this situation was very soon improved. And this is so interesting to see the cinema precisely in this very short period in the afterwar times, how to catch this very, very particular moment in history, when we still see some results of this war, but we want to forget it as soon as possible.

[Jenna Pittman]

That is very interesting. And thinking about the narrative, it slowly, just almost naturally kind of appears that all of a sudden there's war when there's in fact this very long history which kind of set those conditions. It's very interesting to kind of think about how just that alone is almost an element of Austrians kind of creating some distance between complicity and enabling the Nazi National Socialism to have power. Would you agree?

[Jakob Gortat]

Yeah, sure. The aspect of co responsibility is very interesting in this regard because we see the great history, the Second World War, the Holocaust, the deportations, the persecution and how to tell about it. So the best way is to focus on ordinary people, on various ordinary characters who must face those events. And then we see the decisions that they have to make, sometimes very difficult decisions. Is it worthy to help somebody that needs that help? And this was possible, but still in a very, very limited Way as I wanted to show in my book.

[Jenna Pittman]

Sure. Yeah. Well that's very interesting. I know the divided Germany and the two narratives in both of those places is not the focus of your book, but I guess I am curious and I think some of our listeners might be as well as to if the narrative that comes out of that Archie and GDR differed and how that differed from Austrian post war film as well. Yeah.

[Jakob Gortat]

We can see first of all some differences in the political situation of Austria and West Germany. Although both countries were divided into four occupation zones, the situation began to change because in 1949 two German countries emerged, the GDR and the FRG. On the other hand, in Austria this division was continued. It lasted until 1955, so it lasted about 10 years, the Division into occupation zones and the Austrians were very interested in becoming a neutral country. So you can see some differences in the 1950s, how those paths in the approach to the past begin to diverge. The Germans very soon re established the army and joined the NATO in 1955. So you can see that many films produced in the 1950s in West Germany are actually war dramas. They take place on the Eastern Front. They show the plight of the German soldiers and the captivity. And the Austrians on the other hand, didn't want to talk about it yet because they believed they are going to be neutral. So they weren't interested in becoming involved in the world politics and they wanted to stay away from the Cold War that just started. So you can see even in the number of films produced in the late 1940s and then 1950s, I write about it in one of the chapters that between 1949 and 1954, so it's about five years, no single film about war or National Socialism was made in Austria. Then two films, very important titles were made. 1954, the last, the Last Bridge. It was a very. It was an international co production between Austria and Yugoslavia. One of the best war movies ever made in my opinion. And then it was soon followed by 1955, the last 10, the last days of Pabst, Very, very renowned Austrian German director. And then after 1955 those films weren't made anymore because everyone was enjoying the miracle of 1955, the so called State treaty. Finally we are free, independent and neutral. So let's put the past on the shelf and let's focus on the future. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and Pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Advertisement/Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toe. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.

[Jenna Pittman]

That's very interesting. Kind of the difference in all of those different areas from plus four period. So earlier in our conversation, in our conversation you mentioned that the films that you examine in the study are exceptional. What films do you analyze and how did you choose the films that you studied? And I guess now I'm also curious, like what was your process in watching these films? And you know, how did you, how did you approach that?

[Jakob Gortat]

Yeah, there were a number of films that I occupied myself with and I tried to divide. Well, some, I tried to order them according to the. To some groups. So the first group consists of films where the Nazi past is only touched upon. It's only mentioned on the margins, is only a part of background and it doesn't play a very important role in the narrative. And there were some films that made, that were made between 1947 and 49. Then the second group was about films showing those men returning from captivity. I call them Heimkehara films. Heimkeyhrer means a returnee. It means a man who spent a war time on the front or in the captivity and now returns to see the country destroyed and his relations with his wife or friends damaged. And those films show how to restore those relations. And the second and the third largest group are the films about the anti Nazi resistance. And these are the films that I found most interesting because they show on the visual layer, you can see all the symbols, for example, of the Nazis. You can See the swastikas or the Nazis, the black cars that were used by Gestapo, the Gestapo policemen themselves in their long black coats, and all of those visual icons that we associate very easily with National Socialism. And then we see the story of ordinary people, how they are resisting the Nazis and how they are organized. So it was not very difficult between 12 or 15 such productions. So my first step was to study very carefully the existing literature on the Austrian film, a history of Austrian cinema. And there were only a few books, one written in English and 3 or 4 written in German by the Austrian film scholars. So I studied very carefully the whole history of Sun Cinema. And they. I tried to trace, bless you. To trace those films that might fit, that might include a narrative of the Nazi past that might be set in those times.

[Jenna Pittman]

What was different for your study about studying these very exceptional film representations as opposed to looking at like, maybe a more broad. Like, broad representation, because it seems like you focused a lot on this. This narrative, this film genre of resistance and these ordinary people resisting. And I guess I'm wonder, wondering what is different about that specifically and how that kind of. Is representative of Austrian film in this era a little bit more broadly.

[Jakob Gortat]

Okay. My intention was to. To conduct a very complex analysis of those films. So I focused on the narratives, of course, to distinguish some. The most important characters in those films and the dramaturgy, the structure of those films. And at the same time, not forgetting about the style, because those resistant films were very interest due to the very specific style that they were produced in. Some of them were redolent of the American noir cinema or very, very late expressionist German cinema. So you can see, for example, a city when it's very dark and you can discern the elements, background. And then you have this atmosphere of.

[Marshall Po]

Fear.

[Jakob Gortat]

That the characters move in places that look very suspicious. And then we have some intrigues, sometimes very melodramatic affairs taking place in those narratives. So it was the first element to focus on the style and the narrative. And on the other hand, I wanted to examine the reception. So I availed myself of two kinds of data. On the one hand, I examined the popularity the already mentioned movie theater programs. I wanted to see how long those films were distributed. Sometimes they were very soon forgotten. Like one of the films about the Resistance. It was only screened for about 30 or 40 days, something like that. While on the other hand, you could see some films that were screened for about 400 days. So it was more than a year. They were extremely popular. They reappeared after short breaks, and they were screened in all or literally all movie theaters in Vienna, regardless of the district, because Vienna was divided into four districts too. So you could see that they were popular everywhere. And on the other hand, I was obviously interested in the press reviews. I wanted to see how the press critics received those films, what were the aspects that they focused on, if they found those narratives comfortable, if they found it innovative. So I hope that I managed to do it, that the readers that maybe will read this book will notice that they have some precise information on every possible aspect of those films.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that does come across. It's a very, very thorough, very comprehensive and well written study. My question is also, did you. Did you find that the director's maybe background or personal beliefs seemed to influence the narrative in any way?

[Jakob Gortat]

It was also a very, very important aspect. Some of those directors of the filmmakers, I mean, actors, actresses, even music composers or directors of photography, many of them were involved in National Socialists. So the German film industry just took over the Austrian film industry in 1938. They created even a kind of company Vin film, and it was controlled by the Nazi politicians. So the head of this Wien film, Karl Harbel, continued his career after the war. So he wasn't harmed in any way by the Nazification. And after a short break, he just resumed film production. And he engaged also some actors that were very prominent before World War II or during World War II. The most prominent example is Paola Vesseli, a very good actress that was active already in the 1920s. Then she continued her career in 1930s, 1940s. She played in very notorious propaganda film Heimker in 1941 that showed the alleged persecution of German civilians by the Poles during the Nazi occupation Poland. So there were plenty of people who continued their careers after 1945. So the question is whether we are able to come to terms with the Nazi past, providing that so many of the filmmakers were involved. And you could see that in the films where not so many filmmakers were involved in National Socialism, the narrative was a bit different. A very good example is the aforementioned Pabst director that made his name already in the 1920s in Weimar cinema. He continued to shoot films after 1945. And the films that are most critical in dealing with National Socialism were made by him. Either he was the director of those movies or he was the author of the script. So this personal background of the filmmakers was also an aspect that I wanted to include in the book.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's. That's so important. You kind of brought up the Point of. Are we fully, you know, reconciling with this path if we're. If these movies are being produced and heavily influenced by people who were connected with National Socialism and very much bear responsibility in that regard? I guess I'm very curious. Out of the 12 or so films that you focus on here, which one would you recommend our listeners watch before reading National Socialism in Austrian Post War Film? Are there any that were particularly interesting to you or you think a listener of this podcast who wants to read your book might enjoy watching?

[Jakob Gortat]

I think that a film that should be definitely watched by anyone who is interested in European cinema or war dramas and the history of Second World War is the last film that I examine. The let's Stay act by Pabst made in 1950. Some of viewers might find it familiar if they watched the Downfall, a very important film made in Germany in 2004. The Untergank or the Downfall shows the last 10 days of Adolf Hitler in his bunker in Berlin just at the eve of the end of the war, and the problem of his fanaticism and losing control and sanity. So this film made in 2004 was probably, couldn't have been made probably without the first one, May 1955. That was an Austrian production with Austrian actors, with the Austrian crew. And it is a very, very good movie that shows the end of the war and the end of the world for the Nazis, how anything that they worked for is going to collapse within a couple of days. So it is definitely a good film to watch. And anyone interested how those events were put into the background. I think that the film made in 1948, the angel with the Anger mit Pozone. I forgot the English title. I guess it's the angel of the Trombone. And it shows a kind of very long chapter of the Austrian history starting in the 80s of the 19th century. And then you can see that although the narrative extends for about 60 years, the Nazi era is reduced to only 20 minutes. And it is a film that. That shows you precisely that it was possible to talk about this past, but not too long.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah.

[Jakob Gortat]

So definitely those two.

[Jenna Pittman]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's going to be my weekend plan, so I'm just going to get cozy. The weather's getting cold, so that sounds perfect. Those are going to be my movies for the weekend, so thank you. How does this study, Remembering, Remembering National Socialism in Austrian Post War Film contribute to our understanding of memory of National Socialism a little bit more broadly?

[Jakob Gortat]

I think that not everyone is aware of the fact that Austria is really correspondable for the emergence and the development and the results of National Socialism. And we still, I guess the popular view there is that Austria is such a cozy, nice, beautiful country inhabited by so lovely people. And it was a kind of myth that the Austrians created after the war that they didn't want to show those dark chapters of the history and this conviction of being the first victim of Hitler's aggression that was a gift from the Allies, actually from Britain, from the Soviet Union and from the US it was a myth that they really believed in. So I think that after reading your book you might be aware that it was not the case that many were involved, that there was a problem of antisemitism in the pre war Austria. Even though those things are only marginally touched upon, you can discern the problem that being a Jew in the 1930s, especially after the annexation after the Anschlussen in 1938, it was a very difficult situation. So you could probably change your mind about Austria and realize that it was not the case. This myth is only a myth. Actron and I think that the second contribution to the debate on the cinema is that some scholars analyzed the films like for example, Dilett Stabrecker, the Last Bridge or the last 10 days as German productions simply because they were very popular in Germany or they were screened in Germany and they were commented on among the critics. They have functioned as German productions and it is not the case because they were either co productions or they were made entirely in Austria. So you could see that even some prominent films that are now that are good known and exist in the literature, they are actually not German. So it is the kind of contribution to these relations between Austria and Germany and the Austrian film market at all.

[Jenna Pittman]

That's very interesting. Thank you for that. And that really makes me think about. And definitely, probably the most popular film about Austria in the post war period in the US is the musical film the Sound of Music. And I never, I think I watched it as a kid. I had a vague idea of what the film was. And I then I never thought about it again until I got to grad school. And it came up in a conversation with my advisor. And he was like, I hate that movie. And he kind of went into this whole kind of what you just said, how there's this narrative of Austria being the first victim and it just being. It's just a very misrepresentative narrative of maybe the reality and that narrative becomes part of the popular memory. So it does really matter when you kind of look at these representations that come across in film. I think you've identified a really important niche in the scholarship where the Austrian filmmaking aspect really just needs to be explored much more in depth. And hopefully this book fills some of those gaps and creates some space for further scholarship to come. Come forward. So I always like to ask what you're working on now, now that this big long project is behind you, what are kind of your next steps?

[Jakob Gortat]

Currently, I think I'm starting a new project that is related to the Austrian German film relations. I'd like to see how those most famous and most popular films were received in Germany. And from the perspective of precisely this effort of the Austrians to present themselves as a very attractive country that had nothing to do with the Nazis. It relates to the Sisi films, the Habsburg films made in 1950s and early 60s. And the conviction is that the German critics didn't like those movies. But in fact, as my initial research indicates, they were fascinated. They were enchanted to see the beautiful mountains like the pictures that you mentioned in the film, the Sound of Music. And it was kitsch. It was a very beautiful, of a very bad quality, but still the critics were enchanted. So I'd like to analyze this reception in a very careful way. What were the aspects that the German critics found so interesting? Even though the critics in other countries, like for example, in Switzerland or in France, they just called the spade a spade and they claimed those films are terrible now in the terms of quality, but the Germans were enchanted. So I'd like to find the reasons for it. And it is the project that I'm going to focus on in the next couple of years, I guess.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, that's very fascinating and I think that's a very exciting next study to begin. So I definitely look forward to seeing more as that develops for our listeners. Remembering National Socialism and Austrian Post War Film, published by Braille in 2025, is available now. Jakob, thank you again so much for being on the show today. I really enjoy chatting with you.

[Jakob Gortat]

Thank you. It was a pleasure.