Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Jamal J. Elias, "After Rumi: The Mevlevis and Their World" (Harvard UP, 2025)

Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Shobana Xavier
Guest: Jamal J. Elias, Professor of Islamic History and Visual Culture, University of Pennsylvania

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive interview with scholar Jamal J. Elias on his new book, After Rumi: The Mevlevis and Their World. The conversation explores the historical development of the Mevlevi Sufi community after the death of Jalaluddin Rumi, examining themes of community, emotion, charismatic authority, gender, orthodoxy/heterodoxy, language, and textual legacy. Elias and Xavier discuss key turning points in Mevlevi history, especially the roles of Rumi’s son and grandson, expansion throughout Anatolia and the Ottoman Empire, and debates over the Masnavi’s centrality—including the legendary “book seven.”

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Genesis and Motivation for the Book

• Jamal J. Elias’s Background:

  • Transitioned from science to medieval political philosophy, then to Islamic studies in undergrad and graduate school ([04:52]).
  • Previous work focused on Sufi metaphysical thought and visual/material culture; this book represents a return “home” to Sufi textual and historical studies.

• Contemporary Resonance of Rumi:

  • Rumi is ubiquitous globally and especially in Turkey, both as a spiritual icon and as a cultural symbol (“Rumi kitsch”) ([05:52]).
  • Motivation: To explore the historical Mevlevi community beyond the present-day “feel good” image of Rumi.

2. Framing the Mevlevis as Emotional Communities

• Defining Emotional Communities ([07:51]):

  • Pushback against labeling Sufi groups as “orders” (which implies rigid, Catholic monastic-like structure).
  • Emphasizes religion’s affective appeal: “People are frequently religious for emotional reasons … because it makes them feel something.”
  • Charismatic, hereditary leadership is central in Mevlevi communities, not meritocratic selection.

• Quote ([08:45]):

  “We trust that they're special as human beings because of that—not because they have great learning, not because [of] some other merit-based system.”
  — Jamal J. Elias

3. Historical Context After Rumi’s Death

• 13th-14th Century Anatolia ([11:41-14:10]):

  • Anatolia was ethnically and religiously diverse, with principalities under Mongol influence and Christian Muslim mixes; scholarly class was primarily Persian-speaking immigrants.

• Succession After Rumi ([15:32]):

  • Rumi had two sons: Sultan Walad (not particularly favored; “I feel bad for Sultan Walad”) and Alauddin (likely involved in the murder of Rumi’s companion, Shams).
  • Rumi’s grandson, Ulu Arif Chalebi, emerges as the charismatic leader and community expander, spreading Mevlevi influence into Azerbaijan and Georgia.

4. Miracles and Religious Authority

• Miracles Attributed to Ulu Arif Chalebi ([19:11]):

  • Anecdotes include moments reminiscent of Jesus’ miracles and accounts that may have appealed particularly to Christians and women.
  • The story of Arif tucking his knees to fit into his coffin symbolizes his special spiritual status.

• Role of Miracles:

  • Suggests miracles served an integrative function with local Christian communities and provided narrative evidence for sanctity ([20:45]).

5. The Place of Women in Mevlevi History

• Visibility in Early Biographies ([21:10-25:35]):

  • Women—wives, daughters, sisters—play named and active roles in early Mevlevi biographies, notably in Aflaqi’s texts.
  • Example: Rumi’s explicit support for his daughter-in-law in marital disputes.
  • Female disciples are also visible, sometimes lauded, sometimes problematized as being “inappropriately enamored.”

• Quote ([25:35]):

  “In this early community … women are being treated as actors in certain kinds of ways. … This notion that Uru Arav has a miracle, it involves a bunch of roses. He gives the roses to his mom and then his mom ... keeps giving a petal now and again to some special lady and it remains fresh and fragrant with her for all her life.”
  — Jamal J. Elias

6. Orthodoxy, Heterodoxy, and Antinomianism

• Destabilizing Categories ([26:11]):

  • Orthodoxy and heterodoxy are fluid, shifting, and contingent.
  • Mevlevi practices span ‘antinomian’ (rule-breaking) and ‘normative’ behaviors, complicating simple binaries.

• Quote ([27:00]):

  “These notions are moving targets and they're highly judgmental ... people center themselves as being the right kind of person and others are wrong.”
  — Jamal J. Elias

7. Mevlevis and the Ottoman Empire

• Integration with State Power ([29:01]):

  • Mevlevis navigated Ottoman power politics skillfully, expanding with new urban centers in Istanbul and beyond.
  • Developed close ties with ruling elites for endowments and support.
  • Competition and interplay with other Sufi and ‘chivalric’ fraternal groups (like the Bektashis).

• Rise of Scholarly Class and Debates on Orthodoxy ([31:30-34:00]):

  • 17th-century rise of madrasas and ulama led to intensifying debates over Sufi legitimacy and practices (e.g., dhikr, music, ritual), but boundaries were porous.

8. Scholarly Texts, Key Figures, and the Persian-Turkish Transition

• Key Biographical Sources & Figures ([35:03]):
  • Saqib Zadeh’s 18th-century three-volume Mevlevi biographical dictionary (notable for its section on prominent women).
  • Ismail Ankarawi (d. 1631): pivotal Mevlevi commentator, whose life exemplifies scholarly charisma and mobility.
  • Ankarawi’s story: cured of blindness by a Mevlevi leader, thereafter dedicated his life to commenting on the Masnavi ([37:30]).

9. The “Book Seven” Controversy and the Masnavi as Sacred Text

• Book Seven Drama ([40:18]):

  • Ismail Ankarawi promoted a newly discovered (or revealed) seventh book of the Masnavi.
  • Symbolically asserted the Masnavi’s status akin to the Qur’an, possessing “outer” and “inner” dimensions.
  • Recitation and dissemination of the Masnavi became highly ritualized, underscoring its centrality and untranslatability ([46:10]).

• Personal Anecdote ([41:36]):

  “I paid some astronomical sum of money for this seven volume lithograph edition … only to realize [the seventh] was just book six split into two volumes.” — Jamal J. Elias

• Quote on the Masnavi as quasi-scripture ([43:25]):

  “The Masnavi is … the Quran in Persian. … The overt text everyone had for these centuries, but there was this other part to it that was that infinite dimension.”
  — Jamal J. Elias

10. Language, Literary Change, and Accessibility

• From Persian to Turkish ([47:15]):

  • Early Mevlevi texts were in Persian by necessity of educated class.
  • Over time, especially in the Ottoman period, Persian literacy declined and Turkish commentators became dominant.
  • Cultural cachet of Persian knowledge changed: eventually became a status marker, but access diminished.

• Societal Implications ([52:53]):

  • Rumi’s and the Masnavi’s meanings and social roles transformed as fewer people read Persian.
  • Phrases attributed to Rumi (e.g., “Come, come, whoever you are …”) are modern, misattributed, or selected for national/religious projects.

11. Contemporary Parallels and Reception of Rumi

• Modern Misreadings and Appropriations ([52:03]):
  • Echoes of historical issues around translation, interpretation, and access: “pseudo-Rumi” phenomena are threaded through history and amplified today by commercialization.
  • Rumi’s legacy as ‘bridge-builder’ or ‘ecumenical’ figure often built on misquotation and selective readings.

12. Scholarly Methods and Working with Manuscripts

• Manuscript Research Advice ([55:53]):

  • Follow your enthusiasms; manuscript work is now easier thanks to digitization but remains politically and practically complex.
  • Elias reflects on the joys and challenges of physical manuscript research in Istanbul.
  • Advocates for greater recognition of textual skills within academia ([58:38]).

• Quote ([58:36]):

  “I love reading manuscripts … partly because I can make up whatever I want if no one else has read it.”
  — Jamal J. Elias (with a sense of humor)

13. Closing and Future Directions

• Elias’s Next Steps ([59:18]):
  • Taking a break and working on smaller articles; ideas percolating about connecting visual and textual studies, his two main research areas.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Rumi is everywhere. … In Turkey, Rumi kitsch is just pervasive. It's become part of their national identity.” ([05:22] — Jamal J. Elias)
• “Sufi communities are religious for emotional reasons… it’s a very beautiful thing.” ([08:14] — Jamal J. Elias)
• “Orthodoxy and heterodoxy are moving targets.” ([26:11] — Jamal J. Elias)
• “After Rumi dies … there’s a tension between the father and the son … everyone recognizes Arif is much more like his grandfather.” ([18:50] — Jamal J. Elias)
• “The Masnavi is the Qur’an in Persian. … There was the overt text … and this other [infinite] part to it.” ([43:25] — Jamal J. Elias)
• “So much that gets published … so many things are available in digital … Turks do a lot of scholarship on this.” ([57:14] — Jamal J. Elias)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:52 — Elias explains his academic background and long-time interest in medieval Sufism
• 07:51 — Definition of “emotional communities” and critique of “Sufi orders”
• 11:41 — 13th Century Anatolian context after Rumi’s death
• 15:32 — Succession disputes & family drama post-Rumi
• 19:11 — The miracles and charismatic aura of Ulu Arif Chalebi
• 21:10 — Women’s roles in Mevlevi biographical literature
• 26:11 — Orthodoxy, heterodoxy, and the instability of religious categories
• 29:01 — Mevlevis' interaction with Ottoman state power and Sufi-guild networks
• 35:03 — Key biographical sources and the emergence of scholarly, poetic Mevlevis
• 40:18 — The ‘Book Seven’ controversy: Masnavi’s ongoing revelation and metaphysical significance
• 47:15 — Shift from Persian to Turkish and implications for textual authority
• 52:03 — Modern reception/misquotation of Rumi; national-cultural uses
• 55:53 — Strategies and adventures in manuscript research
• 59:18 — Elias on future research projects

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced exploration of how the Mevlevis shaped the cultural and spiritual landscape after Rumi, probing into religious emotion, authority, gender, language, and textuality. Elias’s insights, rich anecdotes, and methodological reflections make this a must-listen for students and enthusiasts of Sufism, Ottoman history, Rumi studies, and the broader dynamics of religious tradition.