Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network – In Conversation (Oxford University Press & NBN)

Episode: James Lacey, "Rome: Strategy of Empire" (Oxford UP, 2022)
Date: November 29, 2025
Host: Mark Clobus
Guest: James Lacey

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mark Clobus interviews James Lacey about his book Rome: Strategy of Empire. Lacey brings his extensive background in military, finance, and strategic studies to challenge prevailing academic views on the Romans’ capacity for strategic thinking. The conversation covers how strategy was conceptualized by ancient thinkers, how the Roman Empire adapted over centuries, the profound role of economics, geography, and population in its strategy, and the relevance of these insights to modern strategic dilemmas.

Guest Introduction & Motivation

• James Lacey shares his career path—from the US Army, to defense analysis, to teaching at the Marine Corps War College.
• His background in both strategic/military and economic analysis shapes his approach to Roman history.
• Purpose for Writing: Lacey addresses a major scholarly debate—could Romans think and act strategically over the long term? Many classicists argue the opposite, and Lacey set out to test and, if possible, settle the debate.
  • “It just struck me as so obviously wrong…They kept the legions along the Rhine and the Danube for 500 years—somebody had a plan.” (05:00)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Grand Debate: Roman Strategic Capability

• Lacey was inspired by earlier works like Edward Luttwak’s Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire but surprised to find most ancient historians contest the notion that the Romans had coherent, long-term strategic planning.
• He positions his book as an effort to finally address this debate with evidence from history, economics, and military studies.

2. Ancient Conceptualization of Strategy

[07:07–16:47]

• Lacey breaks down the core principles of strategy—ends, ways, means—and insists these notions were present in ancient Greek thought (e.g., Aristotle) and known to the Romans.
  • “Aristotle…lays out to govern a society, to govern a city, state…By any definition, it’s ends, ways, and means.” (08:20)
• He disputes the idea that Romans lacked geographical and logistical competence, emphasizing the sophistication of their itineraria (marching maps). These maps—while not modern in appearance—were functional and paralleled modern military nodal planning.
  • “If you’re a Roman emperor, the geography between moving from Cologne to Vienna is of absolutely no consequence to you. All you want to know is how many days march it is along a specific route.” (14:40)
• The practices of Roman strategy align remarkably with those of later periods, including the American Revolution and Napoleonic warfare.
  • “It is the same way we're doing it today.” (16:33)

3. The Barbarian Threat: Myth and Reality

[18:06–24:00]

• Lacey challenges recent minimizations of the barbarian threat, arguing that the Romans consistently saw these tribal groups as existential dangers, a view justified by historical evidence.
  • “The Romans never considered the barbarians a minimal threat. It’s burned into their history.” (18:45)
• He details cultures able to mobilize significant forces, the risk of tribal amalgamation, and instances where combined tribes inflicted severe defeats on Rome.
• The Roman response was to maintain a substantial frontier military presence, and strategically, this became cheaper over centuries as the economy grew.
  • “If Rome did not fall into long periods of prolonged and vicious civil wars, we might all still be talking Latin.” (23:51)

4. The Core Role of Finance and Economics

[24:00–32:49]

• Lacey contends that economic considerations are crucial to strategy—both historically and today—yet often neglected by historians.
  • “At the very core of strategy, very core of Roman strategy is always economics.” (30:27)
• He describes the Pax Romana as an era of unprecedented economic growth, enabled by peace and protected infrastructure.
• Rome’s strategic missteps (e.g., losing North Africa to the Vandals) fatally undermined its tax base, hastening its collapse.
  • “If there’s any one single thing you want to say meant the early demise of the empire, it’s when they took their eyes off the ball of economics and let their core province, North Africa, fall.” (29:40)
• Lacey notes the general lack of economic training among historians as a reason for this oversight, but insists it’s central to understanding grand strategy.

5. Enduring Strategic Elements: Geography & Demography

[32:49–42:30]

• He identifies several core factors shaping Roman strategy:
  1. Geography: The Rhine and Danube as formidable, fortified barriers; deserts in Africa as natural defenses.
  2. Demographics: Rome’s population advantage enabled it to reconstitute military strength even after disasters (e.g., after Cannae).
  3. Finance/Economics: Already discussed as indispensable.
  4. Civil Wars: Internal conflict posed a greater long-term risk than external threats, sapping resources and social cohesion.
  • “These civil wars in a large way cause tremendous amounts of internal damage and decay to the Roman Empire… it literally tears away the societal fabric of the empire.” (41:40)

6. From Strategic Success to Collapse: An Overview

[42:30–49:21]

• Lacey divides Roman imperial history into key periods:
  • The Principate (First 200 Years): Relative peace, strong economic core, threats managed.
  • The Third Century Crisis: Climate change, the rise of new, dangerous rivals, economic shocks, and devastating pandemics.
  • Administrative Reforms: Diocletian and Constantine’s efforts to restore stability by restructuring government and dividing the empire.
  • Late Empire: Effective administration but ongoing civil wars and eventual economic/fiscal failures brought collapse in the West.
• The Eastern Empire survived longer due to the strength and security of Constantinople and the ability to retain its economic core.

7. Modern Relevance & Lessons

[49:21–57:29]

• Lacey cautions against seeking a simple, ancient lesson for today, but does highlight key points:
  1. Strategic Consensus: Success requires not just leadership, but societal buy-in for grand strategy, as with US ‘containment’ during the Cold War.
     • “The secret to success for any great power is to have a strategy which most of the population has accepted.” (49:52)
  2. Economic & Demographic Strength: Essential for both deterrence and resilience.
  3. Managing Transition and Rival Powers: He draws insightful parallels with current US-China relations—warning that ‘peaking powers’ can provoke conflict when they sense imminent decline.
     • “China is looking at the world today and saying everything we want we have to get soon. We will never be as strong against our enemies as we are today.” (56:00)
  4. Alliances and Deterrence: Maintaining close alliances and a strong economy is key to success and avoiding major war.
• He critiques some popular modern scholarship (specifically Graham Allison's “Thucydides trap”) and recommends attention to Hal Brands' thesis of the dangers posed by “peaking powers.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• James Lacey:
  • “It just struck me as so obviously wrong…somebody had a plan.” (05:00)
  • “Aristotle…by any definition, it's ends, ways and means.” (08:20)
  • “If you're a Roman emperor, the geography between moving from Cologne to Vienna is of absolutely no consequence to you.” (14:40)
  • “The Romans never considered the barbarians a minimal threat. It's burned into their history.” (18:45)
  • “At the very core of Roman strategy is always economics.” (30:27)
  • “These civil wars…literally tears away the societal fabric of the empire.” (41:40)
  • “The secret to success for any great power is to have a strategy which most of the population has accepted.” (49:52)
  • “China is looking at the world today and saying everything we want we have to get soon.” (56:00)

Important Timestamps

• Motivation for book: 04:00–06:54
• Ancient strategy—ends, ways, means: 07:34–14:40
• Roman logistics and modern parallels: 12:30–16:47
• Barbarian threat analysis: 18:06–24:00
• Role of finance & economic core: 24:00–32:49
• Strategic elements: geography, population, civil wars: 32:49–42:30
• Overview of imperial history: 43:18–49:21
• Modern lessons & relevance: 49:21–57:29

Closing & Preview

• Lacey discusses his upcoming projects: a book on the Roman world at the time of Jesus, and a WWII history focused on one pivotal month.
• Host Mark Clobus thanks Lacey for his insights and the interview wraps.

Overall:
James Lacey presents a forceful, interdisciplinary case that the Roman Empire pursued deliberate, sophisticated grand strategy for centuries, shaped dynamically by geography, population, and especially economics. He debunks views of Roman strategic ineptitude and draws modern lessons about power, consensus, deterrence, and the dangers of “peaking” rival states. Both scholarly and accessible, the conversation offers a fresh synthesis bridging ancient and modern strategic thinking.