B (3:28)

Yeah, I like it. You grew up in a family of.

C (3:30)

Five with five kids.

B (3:33)

Five kids with a volatile father who sometimes called you worthless, who cursed, and who also instigated some fun times. When you look back on those years, what sticks out most about your childhood?

C (3:46)

You know, I had a wonderful relationship with my siblings and especially my older sister and my mother, who was very sweet and kind, and that was the good stuff. But overshadowing that was my father's temper. He had a terrible temper. And he would say, call us horrible things, which hurt my feelings. And sometimes he'd hit us on the head with his knuckle. And that just overshadowed my life. I didn't invite friends over because I was afraid of being embarrassed by that. And I was an extrovert. That was not easy. So that my childhood was not. Didn't seem like a really happy time for the most part. I mean, there were good things, of.

B (4:29)

Course, right in the book, you balance it out, you say something terrible that happened and then something happy. I like that you were told to be seen and not heard. But you loved public speaking. Can you talk about how the high school debate club changed your life?

C (4:46)

College. Yes, the college debate. With the college debate, yeah. And, you know, it's just. I loved it more than anything else I've been doing. It was just wonderful. I came alive. I loved the arguing, and it was terrific. And I said, for this, the best debater on the team. I said, you know, I'm really going to miss this when I graduate. And he said, well, you know, you can do this for a living. And I said, how? And he said, go to law school and be a trial lawyer. And so I Did you had a.

B (5:18)

Horrific experience with horseback riding when a car spooked your horse? And you write. You write that what happened afterward gave you empathy for people who suffered from pain, grief, addiction, or the murder of a family member? Can you say more about that?

C (5:34)

Yes. You know, we go through these times of suffering, many of us, not everybody, which is probably good, because at the time, it seems so miserable. And it took me quite a while. I was in a full body cast for six weeks. And then it took me a really long time to get back the use of my left arm. And so all of this, and I missed six weeks of school, sitting there at home feeling sorry for myself and just doing homework. But then the good thing about that, that silver lining to that cloud is, is that we develop empathy for other people, compassion. It was like Franklin Delano Roosevelt when he got polio. His secretary said he was so much more compassionate and kind and understanding. And, you know, it seemed like a terrible thing, but it was. And this, you know, like, my left arm never totally recovered from that throw by the horse. And somehow I think it just makes it more. We're more understanding, less arrogant. We connect with people on a more sympathetic level.

B (6:48)

That's good for a lawyer, I think.

C (6:50)

Definitely for a lawyer and a judge. Absolutely. Because as lawyers, we're dealing with all these people often at the worst times of their life. They're suffering terribly, and they need that kind of help and compassion. And. And as a judge, you know, we're overseeing all these things and trying to do something at the end of hearing a case to help. We're trying to make things better. So it's definitely helpful for that. We want good judges who have had life experiences, not somebody who's just had an easy life and everything handed to them. They often don't even believe people's stories because they know so little of real life. So I think the really best thing, and it's even as a friend, you want somebody who has some feeling of what it is like to go through hard times, to empathize.

B (7:42)

Right. I agree. Like many of us, you had some terrible experiences with men who behaved inappropriately. That's a nice way of saying you were molested. Can you talk about what you learned from those experience, about justice and about how your mother would stand up for you while others didn't?

C (8:02)

Right. It is really important. I didn't know what to do the first time, and my girlfriend and I were being molested. And this is all in the book, of course, and I didn't know what to do. And, you know, afterwards. So we did nothing, which is so crazy, but afterwards I thought, you know, what I should have done. And then I told my daughter, when I had a daughter years later, and I said, if this ever happens to you, this is what you need to do. You need to stand up and. And scream and make a ruckus. And we were taught to behave. And the thing about my grandmother who said, my father's mother, my other grandmother, was very sweet and kind, but she said, you know, children are to be seen and not heard, and that's wrong. You know, there are times when we need to be heard, and especially if somebody's committing a crime against us, we need to speak up and stand up for ourselves and demand that somebody do something. Go to some adult, especially an adult with some power, and make sure that it stops.

B (9:05)

Also, when we were girls, we just weren't told that there are people who behave that way, who do bad things like that, who might do things like that to us. Just wasn't spoken of, right?

C (9:15)

It wasn't spoken. And that seems to be the thing. If people haven't talked about it or heard about it, somebody said, well, if this happens, do this. So if they don't go through that conversation, they don't know what to do. Which is amazing because I was like 20 years old and I didn't know what to do. And it's crazy because we don't talk about it. And yet if somebody talks to you about it, like, the next time I had a problem, I knew what to do because I had thought it through. And by then I run a dorm, a women's dorm, and I've been taking care of them. So by then I knew. And we can learn from those things and take care of others.

B (9:55)

So you go to law school at the University of Arizona, and the very first day, the professor tries to humiliate one of the three women in a class of 100. That behavior we, you know, just humiliating a student in class. Most of us only know about that from that old movie, the Paper Chase, you know, or what would happen. Would anything similar happen today? Would a professor do that today? Humiliate a student?

C (10:25)

I don't think so. And I knew from one of the few women law students in that school, I had a friend who was two years older. So I knew that he was going to do that the first thing the first day. And so I was hiding so he couldn't see me. And he called on another young woman. And, you know, he got away with it, clearly. And I Don't think that would happen today. And I don't think they would get away with it. And today there are more than 3% women. So. And we, our class was even less than 3% women. Probably wasn't the whole class. Whole class was a couple hundred. I mean my whole class that first year, that time. So there was so smaller percentage of women. We had so little power. There were no women professors in law school. There was one part time women, but they were all men for the most part. And so it was just a different culture. I do not think it would happen now. And if they did, they would not get away with it. Especially knowing he's intentionally picking on a woman to embarrass her. That he never asked the man to define sodomy, just the woman.

B (11:38)

Can you explain how you learned that if you were going to be a lawyer, you'd have to make sure that the girlfriends and wives of fellow lawyers didn't feel threatened by you? That is such, such an icky. Just, you know that you had to think about that.

C (11:55)

Right. But it's true. That's because it had caused me some problems where I was going to do something at school with another student who was a man and his wife said he couldn't do it. She didn't want him spending that much time with a female. So I really did work at that. And it's also I got to know some nice people and develop relationships when I had a chance. You don't have much chance to meet the spouses and wives in law school. Most of the people I hung out with were single, but certainly in law, as a lawyer I did and, and as a judge. So I just wanted to make sure they didn't consider me a threat. I. There's no way I ever wanted to break up anybody else's relationship. I was just fine with who I was with or with nobody. But I certainly wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to become a lawyer and a judge and do good and save people and make sure that this was done. Yeah, I didn't want to get sidetracked on anything like that.

B (13:01)

Okay, but then it's 1966 and you have another experience of sexual harassment and you're stunned by the legal response which basically blames the woman. So how different is it today for a woman of sexual assault 70 years later? Has all that been smoothed over?

C (13:23)

What the difference I think is that there are more women now in law enforcement. There are more women lawyers and there are more women judges. And that's the Difference, women. I am convinced from my experience, everything I saw and heard, that women have to be in positions of power to get justice. If men are running everything without women having a role in there, then that's how we were treated. The way I was treated when they didn't care that this man had the crime he'd committed against me, a very disgusting crime, breaking into my house and what he did to me. And so that was terrible. And all the police officers were men. I don't think they had a clue. They had no empathy. There were no women. I didn't see women anywhere. Now there's such a strong presence of women and women in positions of authority, like some police chiefs and sheriffs are women and there are women in the ranks. And that makes to me all the difference, because then they see it more so they can understand what it's like for us and they can believe us and they can see how scary it is for us. And the system just works better.

B (14:40)

But isn't there also. Aren't there laws also? And training?

C (14:46)

Yes, there should be training. Yes. And hopefully there is now, because things are better, I can tell you. And there's certainly laws. But the problem was, like the law said, you can't sexually molest and attack a woman or anybody. You can't do that to anybody. But the people who are enforcing it, they get to decide if they're going to file a case or not. So it didn't matter what the laws were. The problem is they weren't enforcing them. Good point. And I think that's changing.

B (15:20)

And now you pass the bar, and that's a whole story in itself. But people will have to read the book to see it. And now you're trying to get a job. Why was it legal for the law firms to not hire women? Was it like, did they just overlook the law? Did nobody go after them? Is this a similar situation? Or was there nothing required of them? They could hire or not hire whoever they wanted. Will you talk about what that was like?

C (15:50)

Okay. And you know, I haven't researched the law to see exactly what it said on the books at that time. I just know that nobody was filing lawsuits for that, that it was being done openly. They would say, we won't hire you because you're a woman. That's what they said. That's what happened to all of us. A few women lawyers that there were. There were very few of us. But it was just out that open now, since then, they can't do that. You could file a lawsuit today. Well, hopefully, that's how it's been, that you should be able to file a lawsuit for that and you should win. But back then, nobody filed a lawsuit for that, and we knew if we did, you would never win. There was just. That was not being done. People were simply saying, we won't hire you because you're a woman, and nothing happened to them. And we knew also, as one of the few young female lawyers, if we did that our legal career would probably be over because it would be such a strange thing to do to file a lawsuit over that.

B (16:55)

So I don't mean to go in a political direction, but there are some questions about people in government wanting to turn back some of the laws about inclusion, including for women. And I'm wondering, do you have thoughts about that? Is it possible that we might go back to a time where women are not able to become judges and women can be stopped from joining firms? What do you think?

C (17:23)

I think that that is possible. Anything is possible, just about. And there are people who don't want women working. They don't want women educated or working. And that would remove women from these positions of power, certainly. And then I think it would go back to how it was. I do think that is a definite danger that we want to guard against, because for all the women and all the women we know, our mothers, our daughters, our granddaughters, our children, everybody, there's. And, you know, it's good for men and women to have equality for women. Women are doing a lot of good things in the world. I hate to think that we would lose all of the wonderful things that women are doing because you don't want. Somebody, doesn't want them to work. I don't see how you can ignore that many fantastic resources. So I think it is something we do have to be on guard for because there are people who are against it.

B (18:26)

So people in and around the court had trouble believing that you were a lawyer when you became a lawyer. How much more did they not believe when you became a judge?

C (18:38)

Well. Well, at least when I'm the one in the courtroom sitting up on the bench in the black robe, they know that it's. That there's a woman judge. But. But. Right. It was. It was difficult because it was so rare. And. And there was like, in our whole county, we had like, two, three women judges out of way over a hundred. And so that people would think, oh, I. I don't want the woman judge. You know, they think they can easily avoid that because there's so few. So the. When we got More women judges. They had to accept a woman judge. There's no way they can avoid it. And that's the way it is now. It's like over 40% of the judges on our local court are women. And so that's great. And there are a lot of women law students in law schools. There are a lot more women lawyers. And then people look at you as an individual instead of just saying, I don't want women. They can look and see that they're different, just like the men are different. They're individuals and they can see the good qualities in the different ones. Nobody's perfect. But, you know, I think it's been a huge improvement. And a lot of people see how wonderful. Many of the judges are both men and women.

B (19:53)

So you tell stories about your opponents in the election for your judicial appointments two years after you'd been appointed by Governor Brown, in case we think today that lies and misdirection are a new phenomenon. And without telling the whole story, they'll have to read your memoir for the details. But can you say something about that election battle? What was the thing that just still gets your gut when you think of it?

C (20:19)

It was horrible to go through it now. I've seen other judicial elections that weren't that horrible. But one of the two men who's challenged me was just terrible. And he wasn't working hard as a lawyer. He was spending a lot of time attacking me. And I was working full time as a judge during some very difficult cases. I had a two year old at home and I was pregnant with my second child. And I resented having to spend so much time campaigning when I wanted to be home with my kids. And one child was born in the middle of the campaign. So that was a very difficult time. And he was so especially nasty and said horrible things and he said some lies. I don't mean to say I'm not sure if he knew they were all lies, but there were a lot of things that I had to be constantly on guard for and correct and respond to. And that was just. It was exhausting. And especially when you're working full time as a judge. And this was unusual, but he had a lot of money to spend. He had a lot of time and he loved attacking me. So it was extremely unpleasant. But I felt very strongly that I couldn't let down the governor who had appointed me because he was trying to get some women on the bench. And I couldn't let down all the women in the world because if I lost, there was. I don't even know of another election before that in our area anywhere against a woman judge because there have been so few women judges. So I felt like I really had to win to help women and give them a chance and so that more women would be appointed and would be judges. So I felt this huge burden on me, and it was really exhausting. But I worked really hard and, and, and I did everything I could do, which I did. Still didn't know that was going to be enough. But, you know, it. That was before the Internet. So we had all of this campaigning in person. We had to do it in person. I had to drive places every night and give a speech to another group, constantly meeting new people. And that was, that was exhausting. But it's so much easier now. People have websites. We didn't have websites. We had to go out and hand out brochures to people. So it's really changed. That was awful. It was awful.

B (22:54)

So, Janet, what are you working on next?

C (22:58)

So I am, and I'm kind of torn here between. So many people said I should write the sequel of what happened next in my career and my life. But then somebody else said to me, you can do. You could write what starts out as a memoir, but you can make it fiction. And you can do all the things you wish you'd done and say all the things you wish you'd said and make it even better than real life.

B (23:22)

And your character, your character can actually toss a lying, thieving, you know, opponent into a river. And it's not you, it's fiction.

C (23:34)

That's the exact.

B (23:35)

It could be a mystery. You can kill people in a mystery.

C (23:39)

Yeah, there's consequences to killing people. I always say, don't do that. You'll ruin your own life no matter how bad they are.

B (23:48)

Anyway, thank you so much for talking to me today. It's been a pleasure. And I wish you great luck with your memoir and further future writing.

C (23:56)

Thank you so much, Galit. This was my pleasure. I love talking with you.

B (24:00)

And thank you for joining me in my conversation with retired judge Janet Kintner about her newly published memoir, A Judge's A Trailblazer Fights for Her Place, Place on the bench again. This is G.P. gottlieb, author of the Whipped and Sipped Mystery series and host for New Books and Literature, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. Hope you all have a riveting book to cuddle up with today and always happy reading.