Jennifer Conrad (1:52)

No.

Mel Rosenberg (1:53)

Children's Literature channel. No, no. The New Books Network. I always get it wrong. And I'm here with the wonderful Jennifer Conrad. And, Jennifer, you're a first. You are a high school teacher and you teach high school kids picture books. And I've never heard of anyone like you. I was introduced to you via Carol Durringer. Thank you. Carol. And, Jennifer, what do you do? It's incredible.

Jennifer Conrad (2:19)

Well, I have a class that's called, excuse me, Early Literacy and Picture Books. And so what we do is we spend the first part of our trimester kind of exploring some reading memoirs that authors have written about reading when they were kids. And we talk about what early literacy is and why it's so important. We do a little bit of. We watch a documentary about Dolly Parton's Imagination Library, which is a huge program over here. And then we start working on picture books. So we study the art, we kind of look at the American Caldecott Awards books and they have to learn how to do a read aloud. So they have to pick a picture book and they have to do voices because we talk about engaging kids and how important it is to make kids help. Kids love reading. That's part of early literacy. So they learn how to do a read aloud and they have to do a read aloud in front of the whole class, which scares them to death. And then we go to the elementary schools, to the kindergartens and first grades, sometimes to the preschool if there's time. And the kids have to. They get in little groups and they get to read their books with the kids and they just. It hits home for them how important it is to read to kids. So we spend most of our trimester just kind of looking at picture books and talking about why it's so important to read to kids.

Mel Rosenberg (3:48)

And these are regular high school students in your town Allegan in Michigan, right?

Jennifer Conrad (3:56)

Yep, they're seniors. So they're in their last year for many of them as counts as their English requirement.

Mel Rosenberg (4:02)

And these are like regular high school students. And rather than study Shakespeare, which is what I did in my senior year, they are studying picture books. Did you invent this? I've never ever heard of anything like it. How did this happen?

Jennifer Conrad (4:18)

Well, when I was in college, I originally wanted to go into children's literature. I was thinking I might want to become a professor. And in the 90s there weren't a ton of colleges that offered children's lit. And after I graduated, I enrolled in the master's in children's lit program at Eastern Michigan University. And during that time I did some work with a colleague's child and kind of caught the bug for teaching. So I started the children's lit program but then left it to do the teaching certification program. But the children's lit stuff was always kind of in the back of my head. And I had this wonderful principal, Bill Hammer, who just encouraged us to do anything. So I said, hey, what if I did a children's lit class? And originally it was the picture books, but also Harry Potter and I taught the Watsons go to Birmingham 1963 by Christopher Paul Curtis, who's a Michigan author. And sometimes I talk a Wizard of Oz. So there were a whole bunch of books. It was a year long course called Children's lit. And back then we actually wrote picture books. My mom was A fourth grade teacher and I used to coach tennis and my co tennis coach was the first grade teacher. And so we would work with the first graders to make books or sometimes the fourth graders to make books. And then we would kind of do this big performance where they would, we would enact a couple of them. But then eventually the classes became, the time we had became shorter. And so what I did, gosh, trying to think maybe two or three years ago is I broke the children's lit class up into two so they're each a trimester long. And one of them is the Harry Potter course and it just focuses on Harry Potter. And then the other one is the early literacy and picture books. So I've been teaching this, I was figuring this out before we were talking. I think I've been teaching this for 25 years, which is crazy to me.

Mel Rosenberg (6:24)

Unbelievable. Do you know anybody else that teaches this at high school level?

Jennifer Conrad (6:28)

I know one other person and she had talked to me. She's another local area teacher and she had talked to me about, we're going to offer some more electives. I remember you saying you taught children's lit. Can you send me your stuff? So that's the only other person I know that's teaching it. I'm sure there are other teachers who might be, but that's, that's all I know.

Mel Rosenberg (6:49)

It's incredible. And, and the, I guess kids hear from their siblings and it's an elective. They don't have to study this. They can study Shakespeare, I suppose. So they choose to be in your class, which I think is, is good for you because you only get kids that want to be with you.

Jennifer Conrad (7:06)

Well, I have some kids. So it can count for your senior requirements. So there are some kids who are like, I don't want to take an English class and make. Take my class because they think picture books will be easy, but they catch the plug later on.

Mel Rosenberg (7:21)

And for those of us who thought it was going to be easy for me, for example, I mean, you know, like everything that they say that authors shouldn't do, I've done, you know, I mean, for half a century. I started writing in my early 20s and I got everything wrong until about 10 years ago. So you have a chance to set it right. What do you teach the kids about picture books? I mean, I think picture books are wonderful. They can be taught and read and enjoyed at every single level, academic, personal and what have you. But how do you do it?

Jennifer Conrad (8:02)

Well, we talk a little bit about the age groups.

Mel Rosenberg (8:05)

What's it, Jennifer what's it? It's the first, first class. But you bring, you bring a picture book to class, you drag an author to class. Teddy bear, what are you doing?

Jennifer Conrad (8:16)

Well, the, let's see, it's. It's a few weeks into the class before we start actually looking at picture books because we focus on the hard part first with the early literacy. But I'm thinking, I think the first, the first book I usually read is called Petit Rouge A Cajun Red Riding Hood. It's by Mike Artel and it's illustrated by Jim Harris and it's got a Cajun dialect and it's just fun to read. And so I bring it in and I'm like, well, okay, so what do you like about this book? And we talk about it a little bit and who do you think this is meant for? And so we just kind of. I start off by trying to read some fun books just to get them used to what it's like to listen to picture books again. And sometimes we'll talk about that too. Like, okay, so now this is what it's like for little kids because they have to, I call it kindergarten style. They sit on the floor around me. I sit in a chair. It's just like when they were in kindergarten.

Mel Rosenberg (9:18)

And these are the other 17 year old kids.

Jennifer Conrad (9:21)

Yes, 17 and 18 year old kids sitting on the floor around the teacher while I read a book and share it with them. And then a couple of like a few books in. Then I will do a, I will do a bad reading of Don't Let the Pigeon Stay Up Late by Mo Willems. So I'll wait.

Mel Rosenberg (9:39)

Hold on, hold on. First of all, you sent me about a hundred of your favorite books. I mean, I haven't had homework in years. It's going to take me a while to read all of them. I did start, so it's interesting. I'm a huge Mo Williams fan and I actually met him last year, which was a big thing for me. And he really is tall. And so I'm interested because most people would teach Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus, which I've also taught. You chose another one of the similar stories. Is there a reason for that or just.

Jennifer Conrad (10:14)

It was one of my son's favorite books when he was little. And the Don't Let the Pigeon Ride the Bus is a Caldecott book. So I try to save Caldecott books until the latter part of the trimester. So this one is, I just picked this one because he used to love it. And I read it all the time to him. So it's good memories for me every time I read it.

Mel Rosenberg (10:37)

Okay, what's not to love? And we'll get back to the memories. So what do you do? I mean, I can ask you a million questions, but you read the books to the kids and then you ask them what's good about it and what's not good about it. You have like, I have a checklist and Mel's favorite things that make a children's book a picture book. Do you have a list like that that you share? If not, I'm going to ask you about it. Like, do you just open it up to the kids and say, what do you like about this?

Jennifer Conrad (11:10)

Yeah, we just usually open it up because it's a short conversation. A lot of times they're. They aren't always quick to share. So we, we just kind of warm up with a few books. And what they really get into is when I do that, don't let the pigeons stay up late. And the first time I read it, it's just monotone and I read too fast and I don't show them half of the pictures. And I have attitude about reading it. And they just love to, like, tell me everything I did wrong in my read aloud. And we'll, you know, I'll be like, hey, hey, hey, you're hurting my feelings. Give me something nice for a minute. And so then, then we talk about what should you do when you're reading to a kid? And then I reread it and I make them interact with it. Like, you know, I, my son used to always, no pigeon. Every time pigeon would say something. So I make them do it. And then we talk about, hey, look, you were engaged. This is how you kind of get younger kids to get more involved in the book versus just sitting and absorbing. And then they have fun telling me what I did right, and then trying to figure out what I didn't do as well. And then what we do from there is we talk about the voices a little bit. But then there I have them read Little Red Running Shorts, which is out of the the Stinky Cheese man and Other Fairly Stupid Tales by John Ceska and Lane Smith. And so they just take that story and they have to figure out in groups. They're in groups of three. What should Jack the narrator's voice sound like? What should Red Running Short's voice sound like? What should the wolf's voice sound like? And they. And we talk about, look at the picture. Like, you've gotta first pay attention to what they say. But then look at the pictures and how do you figure out what kind of voices you do for those characters based on what they look like? And little Red running short, she's basically got like a big frown here and a frown up here, frown here. You know, she's, she's got all the sass, so it's kind of fun. And they try to. Some of them try to do like British accents and stuff for the wolf. It's really funny because they're really bad accents. But then they, they, then they start thinking about, okay, what. We start looking at the picture books and pick a, pick a book that you like. What should you do? What should this character sound like? What should this character sound like? So we do a lot of kind of voice prepping for. When they get to their read aloud.

Mel Rosenberg (13:31)

Through that, they get to choose the picture book that they want to work on.

Jennifer Conrad (13:35)

They usually my goal for them is I want them to read 25 picture books over the course of the trimester. And they, we have times, like in my regular English classes, like the lit based. Regular lit based classes, I do this. We, the students have to do what's called choice reading. So they pick books that they, they like and they have to read so many pages. So at the beginning of a trimester, I'll do what I call book tasting, which I stole from some other teacher where we just put books in piles and they kind of jump from table to table and okay, pick one that you think the COVID looks interesting, open it up to wherever you want to, and read for however many minutes you know. So I do the same thing with picture books where we'll do picture book tasting and they get to jump around and try different books and see which ones they like. And we've also at that point done also when I first introduce picture books, I'll give them in groups a pile of picture books and say, okay, how would you define a picture book? And I make sure that there's like, books that don't have color and books that don't have words. And so they come up with these definitions. And then I throw the, the book with no pictures by BJ Novak at them and say, okay, how does this fit in? So that's always fun to kind of make those definitions. So they've, they've at that point read a whole bunch of different books and they get to pick what book they'd like to read to. To the kindergartners with a little. Sometimes I'll be like, someone else has done that book and it didn't go over real well because it's kind of sad. Or you might want to pick something that's shorter because they don't have the attention span for this really long book. So, you know, usually they get to pick their own.

Mel Rosenberg (15:21)

Wonderful. And how do you grade them at the end of the trimester?

Jennifer Conrad (15:26)

Well, there are a couple different ways they actually get a score for their read aloud, where I grade them trying to think what the categories are. There's. Did they do voices? And were they consistent about doing those voices? Their volume and pace. Did they show the pictures so that everybody could see them because they want it. Sometimes they'll want to, like, they want to read the book like this. But then everybody back here can't see the pictures. What else do I grade? Oh, do they use punctuation in their speech? So there, there are a number of things there that's like a 60 point assignment when we're doing Caldecotts. They were that one. I change up a lot. So sometimes I have them do a speech where they have to explain why they think they're their. Caldecott is the best Caldecott winner. Sometimes we've done a March Madness bracket where we have books competing against each other. That always depends on time. Then they would argue why their book is better than others. So sometimes they do an art analysis in the beginning of the trimester, they write a memoir about their own reading. So something that they remember and as a child or some of them have written about high school. So I had one student that I had last year as a junior who wrote his reading memoir about how he hated to read. And then I handed him this one book and said, you should try this book. And then he was like, I love that book. I loved. All of a sudden I wanted to read more. So I was like, oh, yay, like they're getting it. So sometimes, sometimes we'll write a book. It's been a while since we've written a book just because of time. And then they have like little assignments along the way, like, did you read your 25 books? Or sometimes they'll just do a quick, you know what, what age do you think this is for? Or what do you think is the best part of this book? Or they get. They get participation points for trying their voices in class. They get participation points for going to the elementary schools. And reading that one is kind of. I don't like to attach a big grade to that one because it's just fun and I want them to enjoy it. So it's just like. Did you do it? CO 10 points.

Mel Rosenberg (17:43)

One of the criticisms of American education is that it's. It's confined to the. To the United States very often. Caldecotts are exclusively. Are usually American.

Jennifer Conrad (17:59)

Yep.

Mel Rosenberg (17:59)

Books. Do you expose them to Canada, Britain, Australia?

Jennifer Conrad (18:07)

I. So I don't know that I. I don't intentionally. There are a number of books where I'm not. I'm not sure where they come from. I'm sharing your book next year when I get it. So I don't intentionally. And I've done the Caldecott because in Allegan, we had a former teacher who was on the Caldecott committee. His name's Ed Spicer. And so he would talk to my students about it and would share picture books with me. So that's kind of why I focused on the Caldecott is because I think.

Mel Rosenberg (18:40)

It'S a great idea.

Jennifer Conrad (18:42)

Yeah. But I do. I don't have many. I don't think I have many international books. I'm not. Like I said, I'm not entirely sure there's some where they could be, but I'm not sure where the. Where the authors.

Mel Rosenberg (18:52)

You and I can talk about a few authors who are not from the state. Someday. Robert Munsch, for example, who's one of my.

Jennifer Conrad (19:00)

Yeah.

Mel Rosenberg (19:02)

Favorites. Yay. And. And the other thing that I love about what you're doing, and I just was speaking to Renee about this. Is that. Is that picture books are a unique kind of literature. They're shows. And. And you. For you, it's like. It's like, you know, water in your class. I mean, it's obvious that these are meant to be read. And I don't know, maybe the kids can wear mittens and hats to the. To the. Read aloud. I don't know. And turn it into a. Into a play. And what I was discussing with Renee, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, is that a good author makes it easy for the reader to be a really good actor.

Jennifer Conrad (19:48)

Yes. I hadn't thought of it that way, but 100%, yes. That's why I love that Petit Rouge book, because it writes. The author wrote it in the Cajun dialect and with the rhythm. So it's got a poetry rhythm to it. So even if you can't channel your worst Cajun accent, he's got, like. He'll say den D, E, n instead of then, like. So he writes it so that you kind of ha. You have to do it. Um, you're right. I hadn't thought of it that way, but 100% yes. Yeah.

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Mel Rosenberg (22:52)

So what I want to ask you now is, as somebody who's been in this arena for 25 years, I have lots of questions to ask you. I guess the first is, why aren't you writing your own books? You have so much expertise, and obviously you love it so much.

Jennifer Conrad (23:10)

Well, the reason why I'm not is because being an English teacher takes a ton of time. I spend way too much time grading. I also myself son is a sophomore in high school, so I came to parenting late, and so I've been raising him. And I was tennis coach for 20 years, so that took up a bunch of time. My son's. My son plays football. He's a swimmer. Like, there's a lot. Now he's in the marching band. So we've got a lot of family stuff going on. But I did take a course, an online course about children's literature, just to kind of refresh myself. Like, I was probably 15 years ago, but, like, one of them was what. What you write about. And one of the things. So my son is black, and so as he was growing up, there wasn't. There were a ton of books that featured little black boys who lived in a rural area. Ton of them in inner city or a ton of them about the Civil War in the United States, which I'm like, neither of those completely apply to him. So during that time, I was like, I really would like to write a book about just the pure joy my son had climbing the tree in the backyard. You know, like having just a regular book that wasn't, you know, focused on inner city life or wasn't focused on slavery that featured a black boy in a rural area. So, like, that's still in the back of my mind. But, you know, I'm. I'm a few years away from retirement, but that's like, on my. When I retire, I might actually get to write this story. But right now, it's like, no time.

Mel Rosenberg (25:00)

And I hope you do. I hope you don't wait as long as I did. So now here's the $64 million question. Jennifer, what makes a really good picture book? And I'm going to ask you now to focus on the author side, because we both know that fantastic illustrations make or break a story. But tell me about the story. What are the ingredients of the story that make or break it, in your opinion, with all your expertise?

Jennifer Conrad (25:33)

Oh, my gosh. I like so many different types of stories. This is hard question.

Mel Rosenberg (25:38)

Okay, but what does the story have to have.

Jennifer Conrad (25:42)

Well, obviously it has to have some kind of conflict. You have to have a character that you can relate to on some level, even if it's somebody that you're not sharing the same experience, but it's similar to something or you can. That's an emotion that you felt before. Sometimes I. Well, I really like when there's beautiful language. I don't know if little kids appreciate that as much. And my favorite books as an adult are ones where they're geared towards kids, but there are, like, adult jokes in them where you just things that. That will make you laugh as an adult. I'm just thinking about.

Mel Rosenberg (26:26)

Well, I mean, Mo Willems always does that.

Jennifer Conrad (26:28)

Yeah, yeah, like the Knuffle Bunny, where you're just like, oh, my Gosh, I have 100% been there. Not going to the laundromat and losing. But losing something. Right. Where the kid is losing their nuggets about not having it. I love John Seska books because, like, the Stinky Cheese Man, I just think that is one of the most hilarious books out there because, you know, I know all the stories and I know how the story should end, and then they're just ridiculous. And so that's fun. I'm trying to think. I also. I really like some of the serious books, too, that I don't know that kids necessarily like. So the Undefeated. That book, I love that book by Kwame Alexander and Kadir Nelson. And gosh. And I. For me, I know this isn't the author, but I. I really love it when those pictures give you more than what's going on in the story. Like when the author doesn't give you every single detail and some of those details are saved for the artwork, like that seamless mix. Those are my favorite books. Those are.

Mel Rosenberg (27:42)

Wow. That. That. That took me. That took me so many years to master. You know, just. It's not easy at all because in previous books that were hybrid that I published, I was. The editor would say, you know, this is just too much text on this page. I would say, yeah, I know, but we're paying for half of it. So, you know, so these are lessons that are so hard to learn from the author. The less you write, the more the book is going to be yours in the end.

Jennifer Conrad (28:12)

Right.

Mel Rosenberg (28:14)

And what else? Keep going. This is good. So a serious picture book, I'm going to argue that it still should have some humorous element. Am I right or wrong? Something to smile at. You don't have to agree with me.

Jennifer Conrad (28:31)

For kids, for sure. For Little kids, for sure. Although. Yeah. Because I'm just thinking the undefeated. It's not like a big haha smile. It's more like, yes, those, you know, people have survived. People have continued to move on. There's the book. We are the water protectors that I also love. I love the artwork in that. Again, it's not so much a. It's not so much like a oh, my gosh smile. It's.

Mel Rosenberg (29:06)

So. Let's compromise on endearing. There has to be something endearing.

Jennifer Conrad (29:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Rosenberg (29:12)

Okay. What about irony? For me, that's really important when I'm looking at the picture book.

Jennifer Conrad (29:18)

I think for some little kids, not so much for adults. Yes. Teenagers enjoy it. I don't think it's required.

Mel Rosenberg (29:30)

But this is. I don't want you to agree with me. The whole beauty of these interviews is that, you know, people have different appreciations. For pictures?

Jennifer Conrad (29:43)

No. I think for older audiences, yes. For younger audiences, no. I think that's a little.

Mel Rosenberg (29:50)

Okay. How important is it for you for the book to wrap around? For the. Like, I didn't. The famous book, if you give a mouse a cookie. I didn't see that on the list you sent me. It's one of my favorites. How important is this wrapping around, that the story ends up at the beginning or near the beginning?

Jennifer Conrad (30:13)

I don't know that wrapping up and being back at the beginning is.

Mel Rosenberg (30:18)

Or near the beginning.

Jennifer Conrad (30:20)

I just like. I like books to have a resolution, like a clear resolution. For picture books, I mean, I don't really know any that have cliffhangers, but some kind of. Some kind of resolution. But I don't know that I always needed to be back at the beginning. I'm trying to think. I just want it to reveal something unexpected, maybe, or.

Mel Rosenberg (30:43)

Okay, all right. That's super important for me.

Jennifer Conrad (30:46)

Yeah. Like, have you read One Cool Friend?

Mel Rosenberg (30:50)

No, I. I promise you I will.

Jennifer Conrad (30:53)

Okay. Well, I'm. I actually have it here, so this book right here.

Mel Rosenberg (30:58)

Okay.

Jennifer Conrad (30:58)

And what I love about this book, the Unexpected. So there's this little kid. I can't remember his name, Elliot, who goes to the aquarium. And he goes to the aquarium, and he likes the penguins. Well, he ends up stealing a penguin. His dad thinks he bought it, or at least you're led to think his dad thinks he bought it and he's hiding it. And you keep seeing, trying to find this picture. You keep seeing, like, here's his dad, and he's got green on, and he's got all this turtle stuff. And then, like, the unexpected is at the End when Elliot's left the penguin in the tub and dad goes in to take a bath, he's like, elliot, what's this? And then he's like, it's. He said it's. Where did this penguin come from? And Elliot says, the southern tip of Argentina. He's like, yes, that's right. As for Captain Cook, and you find out he also has a pet. And when you look earlier, you can see, you know, all of the turtle stuff that he had. But also, like, there were hints.

Mel Rosenberg (32:02)

Where did it go?

Jennifer Conrad (32:03)

Like, you can see his foot rest. There is the top of the turtle. So, like, the unexpected is you weren't expecting. I mean, I expect it now because I've read it enough times, but you weren't expecting the dad to also have an animal that he really shouldn't have.

Mel Rosenberg (32:20)

This is often the. I wouldn't say the role, but the creative addition of the artist and. Or art director to find these jewels in the. To create these jewels in the artwork.

Jennifer Conrad (32:35)

Right.

Mel Rosenberg (32:36)

It's beautiful. What else? Like, I'm also interested in your take on reader response. How important is it not to have an ambiguous ending, perhaps, but to have the reader be able to reach different conclusions, to make the book his or her or their own? So the book is not too fixed. It can be interpreted in several ways.

Jennifer Conrad (33:06)

I'm trying to think of which books I've read that are like that moment, you know, the ones that I. That I can think of off the top of my head that do that are all wordless picture books. So.

Mel Rosenberg (33:24)

Those are fine. I mean, they put up sometimes.

Jennifer Conrad (33:27)

Yeah. But I mean, I like it because it makes you think at the end. And you can ask the child questions or the teenager questions. And I'm trying to think if I've read one of those in class where we've talked about it, think of one other than, like Tuesdays that we've talked about. But I think that that's maybe Grandpa Green. I think that that's an interesting element to add. I don't know that I would say it's a requirement, but it definitely gives an extra layer where you can. You can talk about it and have the. Have the child process the concepts a little bit more. It's a great. It's. That's a great thing to do for helping them become better readers. Just in general.

Mel Rosenberg (34:20)

One of the picture books you sent me was particularly verbose. It's a great story. It's the one about the squirrels that replace the birds.

Jennifer Conrad (34:29)

Those darn squirrels.

Mel Rosenberg (34:31)

Actually, my.

Jennifer Conrad (34:32)

It's those Darn squirrels.

Mel Rosenberg (34:35)

But there's a lot of text in that book. To what extent do you adhere to this 500 word limit?

Jennifer Conrad (34:42)

Oh, I don't, I don't. There are some books that have less. And again, age group. Because I don't know that I would read a particularly long book to young kids. But oh my gosh, my son loved those darn squirrels when he was a kid. And we would, there was enough repetition.

Mel Rosenberg (35:01)

You didn't, you didn't tire of reading him the. Because parents, when they get the books with lots of words, sometimes they try and skip the pages and the kid, the kids always catch them.

Jennifer Conrad (35:13)

True. I don't think I ever really skipped words. I don't think I skipped words when I read because I was just so excited to be reading that I was just like, come on. I mean, I would, sometimes I'd be like, come back, come back, let's finish this book. But yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't agree with that word limit. I mean, maybe for like the ones that are meant for one to three year olds. But I, we were reading those books when he was 3, 4 and he loved, loved them, but because the illustrations were hilarious too.

Mel Rosenberg (35:45)

Yeah, for sure. But Jennifer, isn't it possible that times have changed and, and parents have. I'm not talking about kids right now, but parents have less patience for books with too many words. Yeah, they're gonna. 70 words. Yeah, that's for me.

Jennifer Conrad (36:03)

Yeah, that. And that makes me sad because then that's less time you spend reading to your kids. And that is. That time is so important. Not just for getting them to love reading, but just like parent child bonding time. Like that's, that's something you should be looking forward to doing instead of. Oh, this is a chore that I have to take care of.

Mel Rosenberg (36:27)

Absolutely. I mean like the, the, the wonderful memories of my childhood, you know, with my, my parents reading the Madeline. I didn't find Madeline in your list.

Jennifer Conrad (36:39)

No, that's. But I do have those books in my room.

Mel Rosenberg (36:44)

Okay. That's my all time favorite.

Jennifer Conrad (36:47)

Yeah.

Mel Rosenberg (36:48)

And so I'm wondering now when you, you must go to the library and check out new books all the time. And perhaps publishers send you books. No, they don't. Well, I will, I will send you mine when it comes out in February, so. But they should send you books. I mean, you are one of a kind.

Jennifer Conrad (37:10)

No, I exist.

Mel Rosenberg (37:13)

They will now. Hey, publishers send Jennifer your books. Maybe they're afraid that they'll end up in your slush pile. But you go to the library and read picture books and remain current and so on. So I'm assuming that there's books that you love and books that you love less. What is your advice for authors like myself who are watching, listening to this show from someone like you, who is so 247 into picture books at so many different levels as a mom, as a teacher, as a kid at heart, what are we doing wrong? What should we be doing more?

Jennifer Conrad (37:54)

I. That's a really good question.

Mel Rosenberg (37:59)

You don't have to answer me now we can.

Jennifer Conrad (38:01)

No, I'm thinking we can do it again. With five years, I really want to see more variety in what kids are doing and more diversity and characters. You know, a couple of books that I've gotten recently, I think my friend Carol gave me one too. Books about, like, kids using cardboard boxes to build things. And that just. I was like, this is something my kid did all the time. Why is this. Why have I not seen these books before? I like the stories to be upbeat, but I also have really appreciated books that help you deal with, like my son. He. He struggled. He gets. He used to get angry really fast when he was a kid. And so we found these books. I think the author's name is Julia Cook. One was called Soda Pop Head, and it was about a kid who would just like, explode and talked about how to regulate yourself. And she had another book about that too. Just like. I like the books that also help kids deal with the everyday things that they're dealing with, like dysregulation, like learning to share with friends, that kind of stuff. I also. I mean, I like adventure books, too. Geez. I just want it to be. I want it to be upbeat in some way or. Or positive. Maybe you should say positive. Something that has some kind of positive result to it, whether it's, you know, like figuring out how to handle grief or figuring out how to regulate yourself.

Mel Rosenberg (39:48)

Some partner outcome.

Jennifer Conrad (39:49)

Yeah.

Mel Rosenberg (39:50)

And, Jennifer, we're going to. We could go on. And I'm thinking that a year from now we should do this again. But we're going to end this positive note, and I'm going to. Thank you so much. This was splendid. And you are splendid. And so I'm Mel Rosenberg, the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And I've been here with this incredible, unique lady who loves picture books so much that she teaches them to high school seniors. Jennifer Conrad. I can't wait for your kids to take a look at my book that debuts in February for better or for worse. Thanks so much for being on the show and taking care.

Jennifer Conrad (40:28)

Thank you so much for having me.

Mel Rosenberg (40:30)

Take care, everybody.