Episode Summary: New Books Network — Jeremy Gordon on See Friendship: A Novel

Host: Caleb Zakrin
Guest: Jeremy Gordon, author and journalist
Date: September 3, 2025

Overview

In this episode, host Caleb Zakrin interviews Jeremy Gordon, journalist and senior editor at The Atlantic, about his debut novel See Friendship (Harper Perennial, 2025). The conversation revolves around the book's millennial cultural milieu, its satire of contemporary media—especially the podcast boom—and how memory, identity, and new media shape our understanding of the past. Through the lens of protagonist Jacob Goldberg—a cultural critic-turned-would-be podcaster investigating the mysterious death of a high school friend—the novel explores themes of ambition, discontent, nostalgia, and the complexities of revisiting one's youth.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jeremy Gordon’s Background and the Genesis of the Novel

• Jeremy’s background closely mirrors his protagonist’s: both are millennial journalists who navigated the evolving media landscape, from the heyday of music criticism to the pressures of digital reinvention.
• “[Jacob] is sort of a crummier version of myself, in some regards, someone who’s a little bit more self-absorbed, a little less delicate at taking a more ethical path.” (JG, 04:06)
• The novel was conceived in 2019, during a period of flux in media, when podcasting began replacing traditional cultural criticism as the “next big thing.”

2. The Novel’s Satirical Look at Journalism and Podcasting

• Jacob’s jump from writing to podcasting is emblematic of a generation of writers pressured to reinvent themselves for survival.
• “[T]he scramble to reinvent yourself is this pressure that a lot of people feel… [I]f you’re not doing the latest thing, you’re falling behind.” (JG, 07:28)
• The book explores the anxiety and exhaustion of chasing new trends in media, and the compromises made to stay relevant.

3. Millennial Career Comparisons and Generational Uncertainty

• Jacob’s interactions with former classmates—now spread across diverse fields (law, art curation, service industry, music)—reflect a generational search for stability and meaning after the Great Recession.
• “Within all of this is a unified thread of, if not quite discontent, then certainly searching.”—(JG, 12:27)
• The careers of side characters ground the narrative in the broader context of millennial career precarity and evolving ambitions.

4. Memory, Friendship, and the Central Mystery

• The death of Seth—a charismatic, openly gay classmate—serves as the catalyst for Jacob’s investigation and the (un)reliable construction of memory through multiple perspectives.
• Gordon drew from the real experience of losing young friends: “It’s sort of a composite of a sense of lost potential… these people who loom so large at a younger age…” (JG, 14:46)
• The novel highlights the messy, subjective nature of memoir and nostalgia—some characters have barely processed Seth’s death, others don’t remember him at all.

5. Attitudes Toward Digging Up the Past

• Not all Jacob’s interview subjects are eager to reminisce or revisit old wounds, raising ethical concerns about narrative entitlement and exploitation.
• “[Other people] may have processed it years ago. Maybe they never even had to process anything in the first place.” (JG, 18:12)
• The novel questions whose story it is to tell, and what the limits of investigation should be.

6. Drugs as a Narrative and Societal Thread

• The revelation of Seth’s heroin use is a narrative turning point, raising issues about addiction, coping, and the randomness of tragedy.
• “I try not to be moralizing or judgmental… it’s often a pretty clear reaction to something else that is going on, whether… addiction or the simple weight of being alive…” (JG, 20:47)
• The novel treats substance use with empathy and realism, paralleling it with Jacob’s own (less destructive) escapist habits.

7. Unanswered Questions and Open-Ended Mysteries

• The story intentionally leaves central mysteries partially unresolved, resisting the easy closure of true crime podcasts.
• “Sometimes you just don’t know and you’re never going to know… I wanted to leave a kind of a literary and emotional sense of open endedness for the reader.” (JG, 24:50)

8. Setting: Three Cities, Three Temporalities

• New York, Chicago, and LA structure the novel as metaphors for Jacob’s present, past, and possible future, respectively.
• “Chicago is very much… the literal past. It is the root of his understanding of himself…” (JG, 26:58)

9. Millennial, Multiracial Identity and Representation

• Many key characters are biracial or multiracial, reflecting Gordon’s lived experience and broader aspirations for authentic, diverse storytelling.
• “[T]here was a kind of comfortable third space where you could see your… identity while also not taking it too seriously.” (JG, 30:11)

10. Technology, Social Media, and Memory

• The title, See Friendship, references a Facebook feature that lays bare the digital traces of relationships, often stripped of context.
• “It sort of strips [the past] from context… To me is very alienating to see this big wall of like contextless, like interactions…” (JG, 36:08)
• Jacob’s “Facebook sleuthing” is emblematic of a generation’s effort to reconstruct the past with digital artifacts—imperfect, incomplete, and sometimes frustrating.

11. The Enigmatic Lee Finch, the Myth of the Villain

• Lee, Seth’s former friend, embodies the mythologized villain who, when confronted in the present, proves unexpectedly human and complicated.
• “Sometimes it’s not for the public to understand… there’s a kind of authenticity… that is really just for him to share when he wants to.” (JG, 43:42)

12. Writing Versus Speaking: The Heart of Podcasting

• The novel probes the difference between written and spoken storytelling, with Jacob pondering if podcasting allows access to modes of authenticity unavailable through prose.
• “Writing is the attempt to lock in a tone or evoke a feeling… Speaking is the tone. It is the feeling…” (JG, 47:18)

13. Musical Soundtrack and Influences

• Gordon drew inspiration from indie rock and singer-songwriters—Sufjan Stevens, War on Drugs, Lou Reed—for the book’s mood of wistful, unsentimental reflection.
• “A sort of wistful sentimentality or atmosphere is often conjured by some of these songs…” (JG, 50:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There is a repetition to [cultural criticism] that can sometimes cause… a search for meaning… weaving this tapestry and worldview in which everything has its proper place. But at the same time, it doesn’t take very much to dislodge that sense of security and knowing.”
  —Jeremy Gordon (04:06)

• “The scramble to reinvent yourself… is a little exhausting. It can lend itself to a kind of identity crisis… Am I really just interested in maintaining my job, my position? Like, is that my greatest role in life, just to… make a living?”
  —Jeremy Gordon (07:28)

• “I think within all of this is a unified thread of, if not quite discontent, then certainly searching. These are not people who feel that they are set up for life in their current position… There is a very much like peripatetic yearning that leads them from place to place…”
  —Jeremy Gordon (12:27)

• “In my experience, sometimes you just don’t know and you’re never going to know. And there’s no satisfying answer. The purpose of an investigation to satisfy your own curiosity is really doing nothing more than satisfying your own curiosity.”
  —Jeremy Gordon (24:50)

• “The more you’re exposed to, the more worlds you’re exposed to, the deeper… it’s just quite as simple as… just like, having a bigger point of reference for reality.”
  —Jeremy Gordon (34:33)

• “The title of the book is… the name of a very literal feature on Facebook that allows you to see the totality of your relationship with someone… it totally strips it from context in a way that… is very alienating…”
  —Jeremy Gordon (36:08)

• “Writing is the attempt to lock in a tone or evoke a feeling… by the careful curation of words… Speaking is the tone. It is the feeling…”
  —Jeremy Gordon (47:18)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:30 | Jeremy Gordon discusses his background and its influence on the novel| | 04:06 | Crafting the protagonist—similarities and differences with Gordon | | 07:28 | Reflections on media transitions: writing to podcasting | | 10:47 | Crafting side characters’ careers and millennial comparison culture | | 14:46 | Inspiration for Seth and the theme of lost potential | | 18:12 | Varied reactions to revisiting traumatic past events | | 20:47 | The role of drugs and empathy for addiction | | 24:50 | On unresolved mysteries and the absence of narrative closure | | 26:58 | The cities of New York, Chicago, LA as emotional metaphors | | 30:11 | Multiracial identity and realism in character portrayal | | 36:08 | Technology, memory, and the “See Friendship” motif | | 39:10 | The construction and myth of Lee Finch | | 43:42 | Deconstructing the “villain” and private vs. public growth | | 47:18 | Writing vs. speaking as modes of authenticity | | 50:06 | Musical influences and building the novel’s mood |

Conclusion

This episode paints a nuanced portrait of See Friendship: a story of journalists, podcasters, and the people they chronicle, set against the background of a rapidly evolving cultural landscape. Gordon and Zakrin’s conversation offers sharp insights into generational anxieties, the double-edged sword of new media, and the power—and limitation—of narrative in capturing complex truths. Listeners come away with a richly detailed sense of the novel and the realities it satirizes, as well as a music playlist to set the mood for reflection.

For further exploration:

• See Friendship: A Novel by Jeremy Gordon (Harper Perennial, 2025)
• Music referenced: Amen Dunes, Sufjan Stevens, Jens Lekman, Lou Reed, War on Drugs, the Beach Boys