B (2:58)

Okay, so and how do you capture the behavior then? What are the sort of the processes behind this thing? Because obviously if you're getting it right more than half the time, you're potentially doing something of extreme value to people. So financial value to people.

A (3:16)

So what's the process behind is extremely valuable. We can talk about customers and growth. So processes, we're looking at every single, literally every single transaction on the stock exchange. So the stock exchanges are sort of matching engines. They're sort of global marketplaces where buyers and sellers transact. We are breaking down every one of the transactions. So by the time you break out the transactions, by the time you figure out who's doing what in real time, by the way, you can get a decent sense of is the price going to go up? Is the price going to go down? So once again it's just looking at who's doing what, Richard. And that's from there on it becomes easier to forecast the price.

B (3:55)

Okay, but this sounds close to sort of real time trading. So you're gathering rather than sending out a newsletter which people read and take a view, take a six or 12 month view on Nvidia. This is like let's what to do in the next hundredth of a millisecond, is that right?

A (4:12)

It's a bit beyond that. So daily, weekly, that's we, we, we think that's a sweet spot because high frequency trading, you mentioned 100 millisecond, it's a very difficult game technology wise, expense wise. And we know, we, we don't think there's much money there, at least not for smaller players. But you know, we're taking the weekly, daily, weekly forecast, which is where the sweet spot we, we believe in terms of, you know, what people value and how people position their portfolio.

B (4:38)

So okay, so let's jump to Nvidia. Nvidia. I'm sure most of our listeners know Nvidia is one of the big beneficiaries of the, they make the chips that everyone wants to buy and importantly have the ecosystem software which most people who work in this field use, or many of them use. So they've got a good position in the market obviously. And, but if you're so the day before the news comes out, what sort of behavior are you looking at? Because when you said behavior, what people do, obviously the trades that made the price go down hadn't yet happened.

A (5:10)

Yes, once again, keeping it short for our listeners. I'm imagining it's a pub view. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's the rumors beforehand that what dictates the, the movements after the news, basically. So it's just looking how people are positioning themselves in real time, by the way, how people are transacting before the event. Richard, Once again, it's before, before the announcements.

B (5:32)

Okay, so, so for example, this might be looking at Reddit forums and you know, different places people are chattering and discussing things. Is it. That is, I mean, in terms of data source, because I thought you were going to say you were from trades, but obviously the financial directors, unless people are buying options and futures, they haven't happened before the event.

A (5:52)

It's real time. So it's transactions only people are trading. It's, it's not 247 with Nvidia, but it's 10 hours a day at least actually. So it's looking at that we try and avoid the, the Reddits or the, the X or the Twitters or everything else because what people say they do, what they actually do richer. There's a world of difference and I can spend a long time on that. But.

B (6:11)

Okay, okay, okay. So apologies if any listeners understood this right away before I did. But so, so it is trading data, but it's the trading data prior to events and you've got continuously, it's, it's

A (6:23)

all the data continuously training. And then in this case it was Nvidia because that was a news announcement yesterday.

B (6:29)

And how, I mean for, how did you stumble into this business? What was I. There are many people, the world of people predicting stock prices is crowded and obviously there's everything from Motley fool through to the brainier people than brainier than me, people in Goldman Sachs or Jane street or whatever. There's a vast spectrum of people doing this. What was it that led you to believe that you could have an edge in this market?

A (7:02)

Long, long story. By the way, we have some great people from Goldman Sachs, Richards. I think we're part of the Cambridge mafia, part of the Cambridge phenomena we talked about briefly, actually. So we're being very pragmatic about it, unlike a lot of these companies. And you've probably seen more than I have, Richard. We started off in the very field, so we started off in, believe it or not, medical devices. So prediction two, see if we could sort of Tell people about they're about to have a cardiac arrest. So that was the initial use case. Same technology, same algorithms. So looking at sort of our anomalies at the, at the heart level, this is always my, my, I wouldn't say it's a joke opening line but you know, if you think finance is regulated, try medical devices. So that was one of the pivots we did along the way, moving away from medical devices. We had some revenues in initial revenues in medical devices, but we thought, you know, we got, we gravitated more towards financial services because being pragmatic, small team co founders, entrepreneurs, you know, we, we saw opportunity in financial services.

B (8:07)

So the algorithmic approach to anticipating what was going to happen based on data was relevant to you might be going to have some kind of medical event and someone somewhere figured out who was it. Was it you or someone else in the team who realized, hey, this technology and this is not an unusual entrepreneurial event. You create something that's useful but then you discover the market where it's really valued is different from the one you originally aimed for. And this is quite a jump, but I can see the relevance. Who was it in the team who realized and how did all the co founders feel about moving away from saving lives to perhaps making bucket loads of money?

A (8:49)

It was a difficult one. So by the time we closed our first investment round, business angel, bit of venture capital round, we still had both segments in the business plan, Richard. So we're still 50, 50 by the time we closed. And maybe bigger picture, I suspect we closed the investment round based on the team and the caliber, not based on the use cases. So we added your use case. I think it was just practicalities actually. We were just getting quicker traction, more traction, more interested in the financial services. It was I would say forced upon pivot. I don't know there's a business term for that actually. But we were being pragmatic about it and we were just following the money actually palm the bluntness and the relevance. But you know, we saw traction and we thought, okay, well let's go for that segment. So that was the pragmatism of entrepreneurship.

B (9:34)

So there was a question at the event in Cambridge, the Chem Entrepreneurs Innovate Cambridge event about following the money, which, you know, clearly if you've got people out there with cash asking you to do things and are ready to pay, that's a very powerful signal that you've got something of value. You mentioned the, oh maybe can you just like given numbers where you're at, at the Moment. Are you returning cash to investors, Paying a dividend, making a profit? Are you still in the sort of fundraising burning through cash phase which is always slightly stressful.

A (10:05)

Always stressful actually. Shock horror. I think we're gently making a profit at least this month actually Richard. So we're at the break even line. We might do a bit more additional funding just from a growth perspective, but we have that break even line. I'll mention once more actually, because I think it's important for the listeners, our global listeners. You know, there was a pivot towards financial services, there was a more recent pivot within financial services. So in the earlier days we were selling to the big banks, which was, you know, quite impressive. Little Cambridge company selling to the tier 2, tier 1 banks. Post pandemic, we've gone more towards smaller hedge funds and well, small out family offices. So we've moved away from big institutional B2B to what I'll describe a small B2B just from a sort of, you know, shorter sales cycle, more growth potential. So additional commercial pivot along the way. So that'd be the trajectory.

B (10:58)

So you've more or less achieved break even, maybe a profitable month, but you might raise some more money in terms of the sort of the business model and the type of clients. There's this concept of average client value and you know, what's the sort of the lowest amount you want to charge people a year? And maybe optimistically, will you tell me what's the most you charge people in a year? Because there's never an upper limit but just in terms of the time because this feeds into the cost of sales obviously and I'm curious about your average current value and so the range of values you like to charge.

A (11:31)

Brilliant, brilliant questions actually. Right topic. Also subscription wise, our entry package is a few thousand a quarter. So it is quite democratic in the grand scheme of things. Upper range is it's not subscription but it's when we do a revenue share. So we've got about six funds. They're not hedge funds per se, Richard, but they are managed funds or accounts. Some of them are hedge funds and then we revenue share with hedge funds. So it's a moving away from subscription so you know, taking the performance, taking a part of performance fee on that end. You know, as you say, the sky's the limit. Our largest hedge funds so far has got a few million under management. Not very much by the way, but you know, they're growing. So as they are growing we are growing the revenue share.

B (12:14)

So, so, so a few and when you say thousands, I assume you're talking British pounds.

A (12:19)

Dollars. Pounds, Euros. I think that they're all sort of, they're heading towards unity. That's right, yes.

B (12:26)

So, but that gives a sense. So around 10k a year would be the sort of minimum.

A (12:30)

Lower, Lower end. That's right, yes.

B (12:32)

And how many clients do you have? Do you have Hunt? Do you have to. Do you have hundreds or a few? 10, 20, 30. Do you have lots of people doing business?

A (12:40)

20, 30. So just from the geography too, actually. So it's, you know, it's a. Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia, uk, Texas, California. And we're about, we literally signed this week actually another one in the uk, probably another Switzerland. Two actually. So global spread. Single, you know, single double digits in terms of, you know, clients. Globally, that's where we are. But once again it's, it's a very scalable model. We, we finally achieved that after quite a long time, Richard, having a sort of scalable, reproducible, easy to deploy business model. So we're, we're quite proud of that, which is not typical for Cambridge, by the way. And I think I'm hoping you can sort of delve a bit more to what a typical Cambridge company looks like, because they are varied, aren't they, Richard? You've seen them, sir.

B (13:25)

I mean, because before this podcast recording started, I was alerting Jeremy to the fact that although he and I are deeply involved in the Cambridge ecosystem, a lot of people listening aren't. So there will be an opportunity to come back to that. But just a couple more questions about the business. What do you, what's your, how do you get clients? What's your sales process like? That's one question. I'm gonna ask two questions completely different. The second question is like, how do you attract talented people to work for you? Because you're a relatively small business in a highly competitive market and getting in this sort of business, clearly you're selling. The intellectual capacity of your, your team is critical. So how do you get clients and how do you attract talented people into your team?

A (14:15)

Let me address the second question first, because it will answer the first one. So playing, you know, mentioning again the Cambridge UK ecosystem, we've been very, very fortunate in terms of attracting the right people, both technical and non technical. Non technical. So, you know, the entire, you know, four, three, four salespeople now, international, Toronto, Frankfurt, but they attracted. Because it's a Cambridge story, it's a Cambridge deep tech story. It's a very unique differentiating technology. We've done some amazing work. So in addition to the great tech team, it also seems to attract the commercial talent which we're proud of. And that's answering your first question about, you know, how do we get sort of our client base? Social media has been good for us, word of mouth has been good for us. As you probably realize, Richard, I'm quite a vivid WhatsApp user. WhatsApp's been also very good for us actually in terms of getting the messaging out there. So could talk a bit more about the social media channels. But yes, we'd be blessed.

B (15:15)

We will definitely have some questions about the Cambridge ecosystem specifically and ecosystems in general, the value they bring. So I think we've got a sort of a reasonable feel for where it is now. If you imagine we met in three or four or five years time and things have been going really well and so you were sort of like I said, what's up, Jeremy? He said, fantastic. And you're going to be talking about the business. What are the futures that you would feel accurately reflected your optimistic take on where this could go?

A (15:50)

I think the thing I'm most optimistic about actually it's what we're doing with our clients. As I mentioned, small hedge funds, high net worths, early stage family offices. They're all very sophisticated, Richard, so I think we're very privilege to be able to serve them. I'm learning a lot from them. We had a podcast yesterday too actually, so ask me a few Years from now, 10x 10x a large multiple of where we are also probably even more interesting funds. So as I said, we signed a commodity trading fund for this week. We've got an equity fund, we've got a crypto fund, we've got a quantum stock technology fund. So I think more obviously a multiple of client base. Also more interesting projects, more interesting funds because it's software, because it's highly scalable, because it's highly configurable, there's pretty much anything we can do. So think Richard. I don't imagine the most interesting complex portfolio which would be multi instrument, multi asset class, multi geography. That's fine, Richard, we can do it. So I think that's my optimism about a few years time, yes, multiples of clients, but then also much more interesting projects we can do.

B (16:59)

So okay, I've got, so I was going to move on to other topics, but I've got one more question. If you come, if you, if someone uses your tools to make trading recommendations and follows them slavishly without doing any other inputs, how. But what, how much of an uptick on, on the market. Do you think you can consistently delivered?

A (17:25)

I have to be careful about promoting actually and it may be worth putting a disclaimer here. One of our funds actually here in the UK, annual returns have been about 35, 38% consistent by the way for three plus years now. So just one example, the question too is we're getting a bit nitty gritty finance, but I think it's important and some of our listeners might be familiar that so more returns is great. What we're seeing amongst our client base, especially the high net worth, it's not necessarily about making more money, Richard, it's about sleeping at night. So even if it's sometimes, sometimes, you know, it can underperform the broad index, the broad stock market, but if it reduces most of the volatility, that's also a major selling point. So keeping that in mind is it's not just about making money, it's about losing less money. So there's going to be two sides of that coin. So, you know, sleeping at night is important. People will pay a lot to sleep at night. So I think that's a sort of.

B (18:18)

Yes. Although tablets might be cheaper than 10k a year, but if they wake up after a year, they're insolvent. That wouldn't be very useful.

A (18:26)

Exactly, exactly, that's right.

B (18:28)

So I'm interested in your background. Like this isn't the first, this isn't the first thing you did, but how old were you when you first thought of having your own business as opposed to working for other people? And how far were your family and school and social environment when you were a child? Either things that held you back so it built up a kind of log jam where you really wanted to do it once you could, or were you encouraged by family and friends to consider striking out on your own?

A (19:02)

Really good question actually. And it sort of speaks a lot in the mind of the entrepreneur. I'll have to go back a few decades.

B (19:09)

By the way, how old are you today?

A (19:11)

1977. So I'm just below 50, Richard. So I'm still young and vigorous. Just breaking down your question that there's a lot to it tying it back to Cambridge. So as I arrived in Cambridge, I, I did not know what the word entrepreneurship, I had no idea what the concept of ace was.

B (19:28)

I thought it was are you arriving you engraved in Cambridge as an undergraduate PhD.

A (19:34)

So I started my PhD in 2001 now, so showing my age.

B (19:38)

So okay, that's why you didn't know what entrepreneur was when you had already. Wait, when you've got your first degree?

A (19:43)

No, no, I had the concept of business and just about starting actually. But I had a more, dare I say, robust, traditional mindset that you start at the bottom. You know, you join a large corporate and you work your way up. And the very first talk I saw this was, I said decades ago, one of the entrepreneurs here in Cambridge, Pilgrim Beard, if that rings a bell. And he was there with one of his ventures. And conceptually I had to get my head around it. So Pilgrim, you're starting a venture and you're employing senior engineers who are probably older than you and who have more experience than you. And conceptually I just couldn't get my head around it. Well, how's this possible? You know, so much for hierarchy. So that was my opening. And from there on, Richard, I think it's just been, you know, just, just Cambridge whatever rubbing onto me because, you know, serial entrepreneurs, more of an attitude, well, they can do it than I can do it. So I think it's just been sort of growing from there.

B (20:33)

This, this, this leads into community. But what, what parents? What did your parents think about you not having a stable, a stable job? And what do they think now?

A (20:43)

Well, they're a bit surprised actually about Cambridge. Actually this. Oh my God, Cambridge. You know, did somebody make a mistake? I mean all of us by the way, including myself. Oh my God. So, you know, I always tell people if you don't apply, you don't get there. What did I think? I, I guess mixed views. I mean the, I think my, the education was there. So, you know, God forbid, if it didn't work out, I could always get a job elsewhere actually. So I think generally supportive, I would say, Richard, I think this will unknown but you know, they were seeing progress and they were happy with it, so they were just generally okay with it, I would say so.

B (21:13)

So, so the 15 year old Jeremy would be surprised to discover what the 50 year old Jeremy does.

A (21:19)

Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

B (21:21)

Okay. Okay. And did you, did you have like a, an idea of what, what was going to happen in your life when you were growing up too?

A (21:29)

I thought it was always going to be something technical, which, which is correct. Actually. I, during my undergrad years, the, the sparks already there actually about maybe starting my own business but not knowing it yet actually. I guess more of a personal story and I hear it from other entrepreneurs too, actually. My, I mean bless my parents that they were great but you know, my dad's job was at a large corporate and it wasn't always exciting, let's put it that way, Richard. And I think that sort of rubbed off onto me as a child. You saw it? Yeah.

B (21:58)

For those listening, I mean, this is really important. Role models are both positive and negative. And when I worked for a consulting company in Cambridge, I was in the office on a Sunday morning at age 23 and there was a 25 year old, 35 year old, 45 year old, 55 year old in the office on Sunday morning. And then one of the owners came in and he was 65. And I remember I just suddenly hit me that in no possible future in my life did I want to be in that office in 10, interesting 20, 30. It's just something I saw my future and it was not there. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had ideas. But sometimes it takes a negative. And so getting experiences, even if they're bad experiences, can be, or challenging experiences can be useful. So you didn't want to be your dad, basically.

A (22:48)

Yeah. And I think, you know, as a child growing up, you saw it basically, you know, sort of getting up in the morning and it just, it was just wasn't working, Richard. So I thought, you know, negative. I do not want to be doing this.

B (23:00)

Then leading into you, you already mentioned you're active in the WhatsApp groups, but if you could talk about. And this leads into. Obviously one of the reasons to get involved in an entrepreneurship ecosystem is the role models and people as your foundation story. You met someone who was hiring people older than themselves and just sort of thinking, how the hell does that happen? Then if you're smart, you start asking questions, where does he get the money? How does he persuade them? The W question, who, what? Why? Why? When it all happen feeds into that. So obviously that's a reason to get involved in the ecosystems. Were you drawn to that? And you're obviously quite a social person now, but what was your pathway into the entrepreneurship ecosystem in general? Was there something special about Cambridge and what value did it bring to you other than role models?

A (23:50)

Role models. So the day I arrived for my PhD, which was December 2001 or maybe January the next year, there was a student society called Cambridge University Entrepreneurs. You've probably heard of that. And it just clicked, Richard. There was just no other way of putting it. Right people, right attitude, right events. I was quickly made my way towards the Vice President. So I think that was probably the biggest, the biggest single catalyst. I mean, there's a series of catalysts, but I think if I had to point you to one event, it was just being on the committee of Cambridge University or prayer size.

B (24:23)

I'm going to sort of to make a note for listeners. It's one thing to go to events as a consumer, it's another thing to go to events and figure out how you can contribute. And in your case there's multiple things for that. But one thing is that entrepreneurship is not about taking, it's about building and giving and contributing and getting involved in societies, going up to the people in charge, the people giving the talks, people on the door, writing their badges, just saying how can I help? You will get a almost in essence a terrible organization. It's a very nice thing to hear if you're running an organization to have someone who's just arrived saying this is great, how can I help? And you're building your personal brand in the process of getting involved and delivering to other people. And obviously not all. Sometimes organizations, entrepreneurial organizations can be sort of snooty and exclusive and not welcoming and not open. So they're not all equal. But if you find a good one, getting involved is a really, a really good thing. So what benefits did you get from becoming vice president? And when I arrived in Cambridge after many years away, people referred to Kew, assuming I knew it was Q was for Cambridge University entrepreneurs. And in the pre chat we also said don't use jargon. So what were the benefits for you of getting involved in?

A (25:50)

So first and foremost it's a student society, so entirely student run. I think that's important with not very much adult ownership supervision at the time. So let's put in context, I was mostly responsible for organizing the speakers. So, so we had events, we had some great speakers and, and I was there as the sort of the liaison person. So I was dealing, you know, weekly monthly basis with some very senior leadership and some very successful entrepreneurs and they were incredibly approachable. Richard, it's like, okay, well the institution society. I was also responsible for sponsorship, some of the sponsorship anyway, so I was raising money. So it was about as good hands on experience as you could possibly get actually. So that's it. And then back to your point again. Not every organization is welcoming though I think in Cambridge most organizations are welcoming, but it's just as I said originally, just magically clicks together and things just happen.

B (26:37)

So again, if you are involved in an organization to do with promotion of entrepreneurship in your local community, that gives you an excuse, a reason to approach. You don't need excuses and the right word reason. If you approach successful entrepreneurs very Often and certainly in Cambridge. But it's not unique to Cambridge. The people who've succeeded feel that in this community it's normal to give back or, or pay forward by sharing their story with people at different stages of the journey. So, you know, if you, if you've got someone who's worth 10, 50, 100 million euros, pounds, whatever, and they're doing well, and someone says to him, will you, will you give a talk about your experience? That's something that is perfectly natural question. If you just click them on LinkedIn and say, wow, you're fabulously successful. Can I learn from you? You know, they might say, yes, but you know, you're not likely to kick off a relationship. People like that, people who have seen, don't get, don't just take meetings with anyone about anything because their time is precious. So one of the advantages of being a community leader, in this case vice president of the University Entrepreneur Society, is it gives you access to people who otherwise might not be so easy to get to. Right?

A (27:58)

Yes. And maybe I was more young, younger, younger naivetes back then, actually. I didn't see it that way, Richard. I thought it was a great society, was great people, great participation, great speakers, actually. So I thought, okay, this is. And you know, I arrived fresh in Cambridge, right. So I had no idea. So this was normal, I guess, in Cambridge. This was just the way people do things really. So I didn't necessarily sort of think about in a mature way actually. It's like, well, this is Cambridge, you know, welcome to Cambridge. Right.

B (28:23)

Jeremy, you won't be offended. So just because you didn't think of it doesn't mean we can, we can't share that idea with, with the listeners. But, but, I mean, but this is, but you know, I'm quite analytical and as listeners to the podcast know, I've been involved in community entrepreneurship, community activities for decades. And you know, it's a good thing to do, but, but it's also good. It's good to do both for the community, but also, also for the person doing the, doing the community activities is because you build your brand as being a sort of a helpful, nice, decent person because you're doing things for the community. Is there anything. So you obviously feel and experience the benefits. Was there anything else that you got out of this that we haven't discussed yet? Let's say we've already covered access, experience and selling learning that being enthusiastic and getting involved can generate a better life.

A (29:23)

I think we covered. These are all big, broad topics actually. So I covered everything and just once again, just the role models. It just, you know, okay. You know, just also doing my side officially, I was doing my PhD around the right rich. That was my. Even though I was spending a lot of time doing entrepreneurial stuff, actually. But even, you know, part of the research and the PhD you have sort of very successful academic serial entrepreneurs. Andy Hopper comes to mind. Jack Lang comes to mind. It's worth Googling these people, you know, sort of setting up, you know, multiple unicorns, by the way, and you could just walk into their office. This was computer lab at that time, actually. So once again, it is just sort of seeing it, experiencing it firsthand, I think, which has been.

B (30:01)

Yeah, we'll put links to the organizations and people we're mentioning in the show notes. So people listening. You should be able to find this. But I wanted to. What else did I want to ask about this specific topic? I think the fact that these senior people are ready and willing.

A (30:23)

Yes.

B (30:24)

To meet you and share is important. Now, do you think that's Cambridge specific? Do you do. Because I wanted to ask about the. The other things you did. Your first experience with the ecosystem was. Q. You're now known for being an admin and leader of a number of different WhatsApp groups, which is an.

A (30:44)

Let me come on to that in a second. But yes.

B (30:46)

Were there any. Were there any intervening parts of the journey in terms of your entrepreneurial support activities?

A (30:52)

Let me just go to the WhatsApp things. Actually, I think it's a very important one. I think lead is a big word. Admin is a big word. I try and keep it open source, actually, and hopefully it does come across actually. So there's very little within reason. There's very little rules, very little regulations, very little enforcement. There is very little structure. It's just my preference. These are all widely accessible WhatsApp groups. Anybody can join. We try and keep them thematic. Once again, it's not particularly enforced, basically. So, you know, I would avoid the term leader and admin, which I think is just not approach in this case. I think that that was. That was answering and I guess. Sorry, your previous question was. But how did I get there, Richard? So what was your question before the WhatsApp?

B (31:34)

So, you know, I guess we'll put links in the. In the show notes to the WhatsApp groups. There are a large number of active WhatsApp groups and one of the members of the CAM entrepreneurs team, Georgi Kolev, who's our webmaster, is also involved. And it was. And I'd met you through other things. But I think it was him or Tasnim Khatib who thought it would be good to have you as a speaker because you're very visible. You may not call yourself a leader, but you're visible as like visible, I guess, visible as the sort of one of the moving spirits of this. So I'm curious, like, where did the idea of having these thematic groups for Cambridge Common and was that your next step after Q, or did you do other things?

A (32:18)

Oh, there was a lot actually. So I'll briefly summarize. So. So end of the PhD was 2005, had a. There was a direct telecoms equipment spin out. So. So after the PhD, I sort of grudgingly applied for jobs. The irony, I applied to Lehman Brothers, the investment bank which actually went, went, went bankrupt. I did not get the job, I did not get the interview. So maybe that was revealing, actually. So that one. So, so telecom spin out after my PhD got acquired. Richard wasn't very good, by the way, so they acquired the intellectual property. I was one of the co founders of the technical directors that had a.

B (32:54)

Did you, did you get some liquidity out of that? When was the first time you made serious money? That's a good question.

A (32:59)

That's a good question. Ongoing liquidity? Well, some people got some liquidity. I was a bit lower down the stack, so to speak, with the telecoms equipment company. So I said, good experience, you know, very thoughtful. We raised just below a million, basically went through the cycle. Once I said, not the best exit, but let's call that part of the learning experience. I think grateful for that job as an analyst after that in London. So transactions order for analysts and then sort of thereafter sort of gently starting Algo Dynamics. So that's roughly the part. And just I wanted to put that in just for clarity. And then the WhatsApp groups, I think it was actually, it was actually a pandemic innovation. And what's this thing, Richard, about, you know, the necessities. The mother of invention, actually. So this was very UK specific. There was the going back slightly to pandemics. There was a sort of loosely enforced regulations in the UK that you could only go out once a day for sporting activities. So being practical entrepreneurs, we had to come up with a few sporting activities. Swimming in the local river. There's a river here in Cambridge, so that was one of our sporting activities. So the very first group, WhatsApp group, was actually, it was called a swim WhatsApp group and it's still running very well, actually. And from There on it was just new spin outs, we call them just new WhatsApp groups. Thematic and always very pragmatic. So one of the more most recent one is called Cambridge think big, the WhatsApp group. It was a spin out from the AI WhatsApp group. The AI WhatsApp group was covering more and more business topics relevant to Cambridge, but not relevant to AI. So once again we were discussing business and growth, non AI specific. So we decided to create a new WhatsApp group. And I'm quite proud of that as one of the starters. Many people got involved with the new Think Big. It's more of a mindset because I think Cambridge has absolutely everything, Richard, in terms of talent, capital, potential, you know, top three, top five or number one globally. But sometimes we still talk ourselves down in Cambridge. So that was the mindset of The Think Big WhatsApp group is just realizing how lucky, how privileged we are. And that's been the motto, actually. And I think I'm prouder of this. A few other WhatsApp groups.

B (35:12)

How did you get the word out about your WhatsApp groups? Because anyone listening to this might think, oh, maybe I could do it if there aren't any good ones in my local community. And I would say you definitely can. But I know as an entrepreneur that unless you can be visible and people know about you, nothing happens. So how did you. Was it like word of mouth or your personal network or how did you. How did you get the word out?

A (35:37)

Organic word of mouth and once again getting many people involved. So I'll emphasize again, you know, I'm visible on the WhatsApp groups. I'm one of the eight or 10 different admins. So if you are starting these online communities, you know, for goodness sake, work as a team, make sure many people are involved actually, and then just grow your network that way. So just once again, sort of open source, pragmatic team, team led.

B (36:00)

When you say open source, can you clarify exactly what you mean by that? Because that's a software concept, It's a

A (36:05)

software term and I'm probably misusing it. Thank you for pointing some. Open source in the sense that, you know, anybody can and should and could contribute. So, you know, a very, very loose framework, if at all. So there's a.

B (36:17)

The wisdom of crowds, rather the wisdom

A (36:19)

of crowds and you know, and pretty much no intervention. I don't think we've ever deleted anything from the WhatsApp groups. Occasionally we might remove one member, you know, once a year, one member basically, but that's it. So Just being very sort of, you know, open door policy about it. And I think it's worked quite well actually.

B (36:34)

So once again, some of the WhatsApp groups I've run here in mainland Europe, we've had issues of like systematic people, systematic bots getting involved at once in. And they post pornography or dodgy credits or scam different scams. And so I, I've been, I do admin a couple of them, but I've, I've had a different approach. But you know, the beauty of being in free people in free societies is you can, you can do things different ways and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But maybe I, I hope that you don't get as a result of coming on the podcast, people listening, if any scammers are listening. Don't join.

A (37:18)

Don't join the groups actually.

B (37:19)

Yeah, don't join Jeremy's.

A (37:21)

Maybe we have to rethink about sort of posting the link publicly. Richard. Actually sorry for sort of making a slight U turn actually, but okay, no,

B (37:26)

that, that I, I was you. I'll be guided by you. But anyone listening to, if they ping Jeremy on LinkedIn or whatever and explain who you are and why you want to join, I'm sure he'll be glad to have you in the community. So what else do you do that we don't know about? Or what else do you want to tell us about the Cambridge ecosystem? Can you put any numbers to the Cambridge ecosystem? There are people who maybe better qualified to do this, but I genuinely believe that the majority of people around the world don't realize just how many really world class businesses have come out of Cambridge, do they?

A (38:09)

The most recent one, I'm not involved with them, but I'll plug them. Actually it was called Cambridge Quantum now it's called Quantum actually. So it wasn't a unicorn, Richard, it was called a decade. Is it called a Decacorn? So you know, a 10 billion in valuation. The classic one is army. I think in terms of listed companies we've probably about 1015 PLC. So listed companies here in Cambridge, many. And I was giving a talk, I think this time last year actually I did the numbers back of an envelope suggest that the total market cap, so total market capitalization of Cambridge companies, public, non public, was half a trillion. So I'm happy to be challenged on that number. So by the time you include the big ones, you know, army and all the small ones. So you know, for a small village of 150,000 people, we've got a market cap of half a trillion so clearly we were doing something. Well, I think let that sink in basically. And there's mother statistics I can throw at you too. The other one too is because sometimes we, I wouldn't say it annoys me. It's just a strange comparison. We're being compared to the west coast of the United States was a very flattering. It's different, it's an apples for pears. You know, Cambridge is a village of 150,000 people. I think our unicorns per capita is the highest in the world. But it's not a like for like. So it's a very unique, unique ecosystem. So there's sometimes a bit futile to try and compare it to other areas which.

B (39:32)

Well, so is it possible to quantify what the key components of such a dynamic ecosystem are? Because I'm involved, I'm on the board of some of these, I have nothing to do with Cambridge and some of them work well, others don't work that well and it's absolutely the case there's something good about Cambridge. But can you quantify what it is that makes it work?

A (39:58)

If only, Richard. If only. I think drawing it back to Algo Dynamics, I think the branding is very strong. The branding is strong, the network is strong, the people is strong and I think the attitude too is also very strong. So numerous, numerous factors, sort of overlapping and if I had to pin it down to one, I would say it's the people actually the people and you know, the fact you, we have quite a few ongoing success stories that gets recycled people, the knowledge, the money too gets recycled so it becomes sort of a, I wouldn't say a fermentation but you know, it becomes self sustaining.

B (40:34)

So a flywheel effect.

A (40:36)

A fly absolutely fry. Well, thank you for the term absolutely correct.

B (40:39)

I, I, I'm going to chip in that there's a, there was a thing to do with values that I talked to with a recent guest David Cleveland about if people expect to be helpful and to make introductions and is rather paradoxical and not always obvious to people who aren't involved in entrepreneurship communities that people shouldn't be too selfish, they should be ready to share, ready to introduce and it can be the people, but people are different and some behave well and others don't behave well. And I think a pro entrepreneurship culture involves a degree of trust and willingness to help other people, which certainly in chem entrepreneurs has been called together with Peter Cowley from the very beginning we say that we want people at our events to come with a how can I help Mindset rather than just what's in it for me. And it used to be the old joke of the city of London where the financial sector of the UK was people used to say, my word is my bond. And I used to joke that the better motto of the city is what's in it for me?

A (41:44)

Where it's actually. Thank you. Another one actually, as I was starting Algo Dynamics, you know, while back now, I tried very hard in London because at the time I had a analyst job, right. Data analytics, transaction costs and, and I had to. It just worked out better in Cambridge actually. So it's an interesting one actually. Even though, you know, we are more financial, more London centric, actually I think it's just easier to do in Cambridge.

B (42:07)

So yes, certainly the culture of being helpful, having lots of events, showing up to events with a willingness to be open and talk to other people. Peter Cowley, the co founder of Chem Entrepreneurs, said that when people try to reach out to him, he said, I regulate events and at events I expect to be approached by strangers who I'm going to try to help. And obviously this is something I borrowed from him that sometimes if someone wants to meet me, I say, well, I'm going to be at this event in your town in two or three weeks, come along. And if they can't be bothered to come along, then they're not obviously not that motivated.

A (42:45)

Well, let me upgrade you on that one, Richard, which I fully agree by the way. Back to my WhatsApp groups, what you've just described, we can 10x that, we can 100x that on WhatsApp. So by the way, I agree we need physical events, but it's just easy because remember, Cambridge is global, people around the world. You've got many, many chapters around the world actually. But you know, it is literally from Hong Kong to California and maybe that's where the digital technology is coming. But you know, combination, combination of ways, I would say.

B (43:13)

Yeah, Yes, I mean, I mean I'm more than a decade older than you. I would say that it might be generational, but I prefer to have. I have invested in companies where I've never met the founders, just more than once where I. But then there have been other people involved whose judgment I trust who. So it's not.

A (43:37)

It's a combination then, is it?

B (43:38)

Of physical, I think, meeting people face to face. Because very often you're asking yourself the question, you know, can I trust this person with my money? And you know, people are quite good at creating and like, particularly in WhatsApp groups, if you a video Callie. Because surprising how much, how much extra you can tell from body language and a video call. But nonetheless, meeting people in person can be very important. I'm just trying to think.

A (44:06)

I've got a quick anecdote on that one actually because you know, running global business here, we've got Cambridge customers too. Some of them I've never met actually. Richard. Even though they're literally within a few miles actually, which is a sort of oddity. We had video calls, you know, part of onboarding and getting our software actually. But it is hybrids actually. Anyway, sorry, diversion about different ways of doing things.

B (44:25)

I was going to ask if there are other parts of your entrepreneurial journey you haven't shared yet. Are there things we haven't shared or are there in the event you're obviously being bombarded with questions. But if someone listening to this is definitely interested in entrepreneurship and they haven't really got underway yet with their first venture, what sort of things do you think they should pay attention to or weave into the way they live? Because I think very often people see it as quite binary. It's like they're the entrepreneurs and everyone else and in fact life's a journey and people sometimes move from, move from into entrepreneurship back into a job or nonprofit or whatever. But what sort of life should people be leading if they want to be an entrepreneur but they're not one yet?

A (45:17)

Really good question. We've sort of weaved it in in our previous conversations. Hanging around with entrepreneurs is probably the single best thing you can do I think because it will rub off, you will quickly learn. I think it's once again Cambridge centric but there's quite a few accelerators you could probably join too actually with your initial idea. So different ways to go about I think. Back to the people aspect again Richard. Just hanging around with the like minded and the right people probably do a lot actually. So that's probably my short answer about, you know, rubs off.

B (45:47)

Years ago I gave a TEDx talk about being ready for opportunity where I said you can work on your, on your friends and like if you've got friends who always sometimes there are people who actually don't want you to subsequent subconsciously because it's going to be upsetting. So hanging out with people who are pro your progress and success and from whom can inspire you by what they're doing, the people you hang out with and your physical health, your finances, looking after yourself because it's very stressful doing a business and if you're unfit and drinking too much and smoking the wrong substances. These things will also make you unattractive to potential co founders. And then there's things like, you know, just be doing things, be proactive, whether it's sport or community activities, just be the sort of person who's active because all the time you're doing that, you're increasing the number of connections you make, then the impression you're making. And you know, even if you don't know, even if you don't know why you're doing it, if you're doing a course on Python or French or how to sell, at least you're coming across as someone who's on a self improvement journey rather than, rather than the person who just wants to watch the next series on Netflix, which probably isn't the kind of. Even if that's what you do, it's probably not what you want to be communicating to your co founders of the future. Good. Is there anything I haven't asked that I should have asked or any closing advice before we move to wrap up the conversation?

A (47:12)

I'll briefly mention it because it's an oddity actually. So I think probably related to your TEDx talk, which is something about, you know, you are closest to the five people you hang around with or something along those lines. So I think keep that in mind. Absolutely. Actually one thing too is it's an interesting one, it's a slightly old one, but I'll throw it in anyway. Actually, so I was part of my research because I was a respectable academic once actually. So this was related to some of the ventures actually. So I wouldn't say claims of. I hate the term. But you know, I, at the time we are building telecommunication equipment. I said it one of my early adventures and part of that I actually reinvented time. Richard. So that's my sort of academic claim to fame, if that makes sense, actually. Yeah, time, you know, synchronizations or watching basically. So we were replacing atomic clocks because the atomic clock were expensive and non scalable and non maintenance basically. So we had a optical molecular clock. So I think I'd throw that one in. Other than that, I think, I think we've covered a lot actually today. But just your previous points about hanging around with the right people. Attitude matters enormously. And then is there a quote out there about luck favors prepared?

B (48:16)

I'm probably paraphrasing what you've said, David Cleveland.

A (48:20)

Absolutely.

B (48:21)

Also Tina Selig, who's at Stanford, talked about, wrote about how there's a difference in luck and fortune and good fortune is Being born good looking, but good luck comes. There's a whole philosophy of the things.

A (48:36)

I'm sure there is actually the things you do.

B (48:37)

But no, this has been very valuable. There's maybe there's one, one thing I'd add, which is that there's a point my son made to me years ago, which is the, you know, if you're developing relationships, a relationship is over time, it's not a point. And you know, it's great. If you meet entrepreneurs and you tell them that you want to have a business, it's quite likely they'll tell you when you're ready, get back in touch. And you don't want to be asking someone for money the first time you speak to them. But if you say that I want to start a business next year, it's highly likely that some of the people in an ecosystem like the one we're describing will say to you, well, when you've got an idea, let me know. And it's a completely different thing. So although don't be too transactional. Build relations. And knowing who's got the money is extremely useful if suddenly you need to raise some money. Because someone like Jonathan Milner who, you know, co founded ABCAM with, I think he co founded ABCAM with David Cleveland. David, yeah, you know, I mean he's definitely not an eight figure. Nine. Nine figure, It's a nine figure. He's. He's got plenty of money. Probably, probably if he's listening, he said don't tell them because I'll be bombarded with.

A (49:48)

Liquidity is good. There we go. There we go.

B (49:50)

But the. I think I'll ask you to also share a link to this Better than Atomic Clock that you. Yes. You told me about. And I'd like to close by thanking you very much for sharing your story with the listeners. And how can people get in touch with you if they want to? I already suggested LinkedIn.

A (50:11)

LinkedIn. So just Google. Jeremy's a Bosky and you'll get your LinkedIn.

B (50:15)

And if you want to buy algorithmic price forecasting based on behavioral stuff, then I'm sure Jeremy will be delighted to have a few more clients. Thanks very much indeed for your time.

A (50:27)

Thank you, Richard.