Jimmy Wales with Dan Gardner, "The Seven Rules of Trust: A Blueprint for Building Things That Last" (Crown Currency, 2025)

Summary

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New Books Network — Jimmy Wales on "The Seven Rules of Trust"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Al Rosenberg
Guest: Jimmy Wales (with Dan Gardner’s work discussed)
Book: The Seven Rules of Trust: A Blueprint for Building Things That Last (Crown Currency, 2025)

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a rich, candid conversation between Al Rosenberg and Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, about Wales’ new book The Seven Rules of Trust, co-authored with Dan Gardner. The discussion explores the origins and writing process of the book, personal and professional stories about trust, the lessons from Wikipedia’s community, the difficulties of modern media, and how trust underpins decision-making and institutional resilience. Wales also reflects on neutrality, controversy, and his unique leadership journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Writing Process of the Book

• Genesis of the Book

  • Wales describes how a conversation with David Drake at Crown inspired him to approach his book as a series of essays rather than a daunting linear narrative.

    “I’ve always wanted to do something… but it’s very intimidating. Like, have a bit of a writer’s block… [David] said, you could just do a series of essays. And that actually unblocked me.” (03:38)

  • The recurring theme of trust emerged organically from these essays, convincing Wales to structure the book around this central idea.

• Collaboration with Dan Gardner

  • After a year of writing, Wales felt “stuck”—the narrative was unwieldy. Gardner’s experience (“he’s written a couple of New York Times bestsellers”) brought fresh structure and energy to the project.
  • Gardner also encouraged Wales to conduct interviews with notable figures, such as Airbnb’s founder, Christiane Amanpour, Tom Friedman, Frances Frei, and numerous “Wikipedians.”

    “It was fun at first, then it wasn’t fun. Then I brought in Dan and it was fun again.” (06:14)

The Personal Side of Trust

• Acknowledgments and Family

  • Wales emotionally recalls his daughter Ada providing detailed feedback and corrections on the proof copy, and another daughter Kira’s experience inspiring critical shifts in his early career (Wikipedia was launched just after her birth and medical crisis).

    “She actually read the book… and came back to me with a hand-written two pages of notes.” (10:15)
    [On Kira’s illness and Wikipedia’s founding:] “It just wasn’t that helpful… I had to double down. Life’s too short. We’re going to rip up the plan of Nupedia and we’re going to start Wikipedia.” (12:18–13:38)

• Family Support

  • His family’s input was crucial, both in feedback and emotional sustenance—including feedback from his wife, Kate.
  • The dedication, “To the Wikipedians, without whom I could not have written a book… and to my girls, whom I could not have written any book.” (09:42)

Wikipedia and the Evolution of Trust

• The Nupedia-to-Wikipedia Shift

  • The initial project, Nupedia, required a rigorous seven-stage editorial process (“seven rules of mistrust”), which stifled productivity (21 articles after years).

    “Looking back… after a year or two there were only 21 articles… and Wikipedia was kind of a last straw, wasn’t it?” (17:44)

  • Opening things up led to Wikipedia’s core rule: to get trust, you must first give trust.

    “One of the big lessons there is—one of the rules of trust is to get trust, give trust. To say to people: yeah, come and edit, I trust you. Let’s do our best and let’s do it in goodwill.” (18:54)

  • He draws a direct line from this lesson to parenting and organizational life, noting that giving trust allows for reciprocal responsibility and growth.

Leadership and Community

• Role as a Leader
  • Wales is “a pathological optimist,” but admits to surprise at Wikipedia’s growth and the sustained cooperation within a global volunteer community.

    “I assumed that what you would need is some sort of an editor in chief… Turns out that’s never even been a question.” (22:40)

  • Realized quickly that a distributed, trust-based system worked better than hierarchical control.

The Value (and Challenge) of Neutrality

• Neutral Point of View as Non-Negotiable

  • Wales emphasizes neutrality as Wikipedia’s core, acknowledging it’s a “tough philosophical subject”—especially during controversies.

    “In the early days, [neutrality] was non-negotiable… What does neutrality mean? … That’s a tough philosophical subject… there’s no magic answer.” (26:00)

  • Neutrality doesn’t mean false equivalency (“the moon is not cheese”), but Wikipedia must present what reliable sources say in controversial areas.

    “If there is a legitimate controversy… Wikipedia should always refrain from saying [in its own voice].” (27:23)

• On Criticisms of Wikipedia

  • Responding to charges of left-leaning “Wokipedia," Wales argues that intellectual diversity and curiosity are vital to the project’s credibility.

    “The idea that we’ve been taken over by crazy left wing activists is just overblown. That’s not the case… we really want people of intellectual diversity in a spirit of the enlightenment experiment—let’s be curious together.” (31:50)

Trust, Media, and Journalism

• Attempts to Fix Journalism: WikiTribune

  • Wales describes launching WikiTribune with Orit as an attempt to restore neutrality and reliability in media by blending professional journalists with citizen reporters.

    “WikiTribune was an effort to find ways that we could get journalists and citizen reporters to work together. What I learned… the problem… doesn’t rest with journalism. It rests with the broader environment…” (34:36)

  • The business model of journalism—driven by ad clicks and “clickbait"—makes true neutrality hard to sustain.

  • Key Lesson:

    “Citizen journalism… is just not possible to do without people who can devote full time to it.” (36:09)

Reflections on Greatness and Responsibility

• On Having “Greatness Thrust Upon You”

  • Rosenberg asks if Wales was born great, achieved it, or had it “thrust upon him” (paraphrasing Shakespeare).

    “It was thrust upon me… My role within the Wikipedia world is as much as anything just a coach, a reminder… to help provide a bit of identity.” (38:09–39:00)

• Teamwork and Credit

  • Wales agrees co-founder Larry Sanger deserves more credit than he tends to receive for early ideas and work, even if they disagree on Wikipedia’s later direction.

    “Larry doesn’t get enough credit for his early work, for his ideas. I think he’s wrong about some things, but… you have to grapple with complaints seriously.” (40:17)

Trust as a Practical Framework

• Blueprint for Leadership and Everyday Life

  • The book is designed as a practical guide for shaping trust – not just in global issues, but within organizations and personal relationships.

    “It’s a blueprint, supposed to be practical. Because you or I… we can’t take action… to fix trust in journalism… But we can think about our own organizations… How do I build a culture of trust?” (46:46)

• Personal Anecdotes on Trust

  • Wales and Rosenberg end the conversation by sharing stories of mistakes made in childhood—cheating in second grade, a misguided science experiment that led to a minor injury ("centrifugal force" mishap)—to underline the universal, human side of trust-building.

    “That was a confession time. Public confession. Although my mom already knows about this…” (44:41)

• On Audiobooks

  • Wales himself narrates the audiobook, coached by a venerable Star Wars actor.

    “I read the audiobook myself. There was a guy… he would coach me through lines… It was a good experience.” (48:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the philosophy of trust:

  “To get trust, give trust.” —Jimmy Wales (18:54)

• On personal lessons:

  “Most people who say they want to write a book actually want to have written a book. And I thought that was very insightful… But the truth is, I want to have written a book. I like this stage.” —Jimmy Wales (08:03)

• On leadership:

  “My role within the Wikipedia world is… just a coach, a reminder… to help provide a bit of identity.” —Jimmy Wales (39:00)

• On neutrality:

  “Wikipedia shouldn’t say, well, the only people against masks are anti-science. No, to say: actually it’s complicated… and it’s not for Wikipedia to tell you, but to help you grapple with that argument in a good way.” —Jimmy Wales (28:40)

• On failure and iteration:

  “Even the things that we did wrong, we learned from… Nupedia was a two-year colossal waste of time. In another sense, it wasn’t because we tried something. We learned, we fought, we had conversations.” —Jimmy Wales (43:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Book Genesis and Writer’s Block (03:38)
• Bringing in Dan Gardner / Interviews (06:14)
• Family Involvement and Feedback (10:15–12:08)
• Kira’s Medical Crisis, Wikipedia’s Launch (12:18–13:38)
• From Nupedia to Wikipedia—The Shift to Trust (17:44–18:54)
• Parenting and Trust (19:48–21:26)
• Wikipedia’s Non-Hierarchical Community (22:40–25:06)
• Neutrality and Handling Controversy (26:00–32:30)
• WikiTribune and Lessons from Journalism (34:36–36:09)
• Handling Greatness and Responsibility (38:09–39:00)
• Credit to Larry Sanger (40:17–43:30)
• Reflections on Mistakes and Trust (44:41–46:17)
• Blueprint for Building Trust (Book’s Practical Value) (46:46)
• Audiobook Experience (48:03)

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Final Thoughts

This conversation eloquently demonstrates how Jimmy Wales applies his “seven rules” to life, leadership, and the digital commons. Key insights include the humility to learn from mistakes, the necessity of both granting and earning trust, and the imperative of neutrality and curiosity—especially in a polarized age. Both personal and practical, the episode offers a roadmap for anyone concerned with building things, from organizations to enduring relationships, that last.

If you want models for building trust, you’d be hard-pressed to find a better guide than the story behind Wikipedia—and the lessons Wales and Gardner have distilled in their book.

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Transcript

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[Al Rosenberg]

I am Jimmy. You're wearing a pink shirt, but I'm the one who's pickled pink. To be. To be interviewing my. You're my Internet hero. I mean we're also.

[Jimmy Wales]

That's very kind.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah. We're also friends. And for almost 20 years we're celebrating your brand new book, which I've read several times. It has a very long title. Hold it up so I can read the title without going to my my notes. Jimmy. So the Seven Rules of Trust. A Blueprint for Building Things that Last by Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia. And also. And also Dan Gardner, who happens to be from Ottawa, Canada, where I hail from.

[Jimmy Wales]

Oh, right. Brilliant.

[Al Rosenberg]

So Mathilde called. Jimmy. Thank you. I want to say it's the whales of a book. I had to say that sort. I apologize. Let's start off by shouting out a few thanks. First of all to Dr. Orit. Koppel, who has been part of the gang for many years and came up with the idea of having this interview.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

And of course, to Dr. Yossi Vardy, who introduced us in the first place, along with Jeff Bulber. And we met at a crazy unconference where people invent their own conference. And I remember you with your. With your Wikipedia T shirt, and you were so unassuming. Somebody came up and asked you what you did at the Wikipedia, and. And you were very kind. I remember that. So, a few words about your new book. I know everybody was interviewing you. The book came out a month ago, Ground Publishing, part of Penguin Random House. And it's wonderfully done. A few words. I know people want to ask you about Wikipedia, and I want to ask you Wikipedia, too, but let's talk about the book. How's the book? How did the book happen?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, great. Well, so I. I met David Drake, who's the head of Crown, and, you know, we were just talking about the idea of me doing a book and so forth, and I just said at the time, I was like, yeah, I've always wanted to do something. You know, I've got a few ideas, things I want to do, but it's very intimidating. Like, have a bit of a writer's block getting. Getting started. And he said, well, have you read Peter Thiel's book? And I hadn't at that time. He said, in a way, it isn't really a book. It's a series of essays. And he said, you could just do a series of essays. And that actually unblocked me. I was like, oh, great. Yeah. I mean, I write all the time. That way I don't have to worry about the big picture, the theme. I'll just write some of the things I've learned. And so I started doing that. But it was very quickly apparent that there was a theme and that it was trust. It's something that comes up again and again in my work and in the book. So then I said, okay, great, Right. I'm going to write the Seven Rules of Trust. And then sort of wrote the book proposal, sold it, multiple publishers, all of that. We can get into all that. But. And then started writing. And then as I wrote, I was talking.

[Al Rosenberg]

Jimmy, we're going to forget to get into it. So let's get into it. Do you have an agent? You have an agent?

[Jimmy Wales]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my agent, William Callahan, had tolerated me for many years as we talked and talked about possibly writing a book and getting started on a proposal and all of that. And then once we. Once we did, you know, once I had the proposal, then we. We sold it to Crown for the US and Canada, Bloomsbury in the UK and Commonwealth. We've now. It's carried on past that. We sold it. I think the next one was German, was the first other non English language, but now we've sold it in 20 languages around the world. So it's. It's been amazing. So that's great. And so those editions, the German edition is out. The others will follow over the next year. So I'm. I'm trying. I'm pushing everybody to please tell me the dates because I want to travel and, and go in as many of the book launches as I can. It'll be great.

[Al Rosenberg]

So we're. We're one month into the publishing and you've already got 20 deals going.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah. So it's. That's exciting. Like, it's really good. And that's a good agent.

[Al Rosenberg]

That's a good agent.

[Jimmy Wales]

That's a good agent. Yeah. That's a very busy agent. I. I liked him very much. He's at Inkwell, so. So in any event, when I was doing the writing then, you know, seven rules of trust. So then I started mapping out what are the rules and this and that. And I got to a certain point after about a year where I was just, again, very stuck. And I was actually stuck at the original point that I had mentioned to David Drake. I'm like, I don't know how to shape this body of material into a proper book. So brought in Dan Gardner to help me, and he's written a couple of New York Times bestsellers. And, you know, he's a noted author himself. And it was really wonderful then. So people say, oh, was it fun or terrible writing? Well, it was fun at first, then it wasn't fun. Then I brought in Dan and it was fun again. So that was great. So Dan really helped me sort of structure the story and tell it. And the other thing he brought to the project is I'm a little bit of a shy person. I mean, you wouldn't know it from. Do a lot of public speaking and all that, but I am. And, you know, he's like, yeah, you tell some of these stories, but we need to interview people. I'm like, okay, I don't really know how to interview. So anyway. But we did. So we interviewed. There's a lot of interviews in the book with one of the founders of Airbnb. We interviewed a couple of big journalists, Christian Amanpour. And Tom Friedman talked to a lot of Wikipedians, so that added a lot to the book. So I learned a lot, actually, in writing the book, not just about trust, because we did a lot of research into the academic literature on trust. Frances Fry is one of the greats and interviewed her for the book, and she gave us a lot of sort of additional insight and framework, but also just about the process of writing a book and putting it together. So for me, it was a fantastic life experience to go through just the process. And of course, I remember when I was about, I think, 10 or 12 years old, I. My parents subscribed to Reader's Digest magazine, which you always had around the house, you know, next to the toilet, you know, and that sort of thing. And I remember reading something in there when I was a young kid that said most people who say they want to write a book actually want to have written a book. And I thought that was very insightful. Even as a kid, I thought that was very insightful. But then I did think, ah, no, I want to write a book. But the truth is, I want to have written a book. I like this stage. I took all the ideas that have been brewing in my head for a long time. Now they're down on paper, and now to go out and tell people about it and to sort of try and persuade people that this is interesting to look at. And I think it's important for the world because we're in this enormous trust crisis.

[Al Rosenberg]

That's for sure. That's for sure. Okay, let's now go back to the very beginning of the book. First of all, some of the really amazing people who praised your book, and rightly so. One of my favorites is, of course, my countryman, Professor Yuval Noah Harari. And he said, if only the whole world could look like Wikipedia.

[Jimmy Wales]

That's so sweet.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah, that's how I feel about what you and the Wikipedians have done for the world. And we'll get back to that. But there's another thing at the beginning of the book, and that is your. What do you. What do you call it in English?

[Jimmy Wales]

Your.

[Al Rosenberg]

Oh, Jimmy, come on, help me. You thank the women in your life. Oh, yeah, you said to the Wikipedia. Well, let me. Let me quote you, man, to the Wikipedians, without whom I could not have written a book, have clear. And to my girls, whom I could not have written any book. I mean, one of the girls is your mom, Doris. I've interviewed her. She's wonderful. She thinks highly of you, Jimmy. That makes me happy. And one of Your girls. The beginning of the book. Have you worried about the girls?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah. So obviously my wife Kate sort of supported me through the whole process and there's a lot about her in the, in the afterword or the. Yeah. After. I don't know where it is, but it's somewhere in the book. A little essay about that process. And then. Yeah, my children. So Kira, who's talked about in the book, and then the two younger ones who live here in London, actually the eldest of the two. I'm going to tear up a little bit. It was so sweet. She. Ada. She actually, when we had the proof copy, you know, from the publisher, she actually read the book, literally read it page by page and came back to me with like hand page written two pages of notes where she asked me questions. A lot of it was references that she didn't understand. You know, like if we, I mentioned Watergate at some point, which for adults anyway, of our age, we, we fully know what, you know, what happened when I was a kid, but still we know what Watergate is. She's like, what, what does this mean, Watergate? And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, you might have heard about it in school or you will, but it was big scandal in the US Watergate about Richard Nixon, who we talk about in the book. And she also found a typo and I, I was, I was alarmed and she, she came to me just after the final. Like she, she had read this. This is like a proof copy. This is the real copy. And I'm like, oh no. Like I'm. So we rushed to get a real copy and looked at. They had found it, so it had been fixed by the publisher already, thank goodness. So, so that was great. But yeah, no, it was really, it meant a lot to me that she, you know, because she said, oh yeah, I want to read it. I'm like, oh yeah, sure, you'll, you know, you'll. Some grown ups book. But no, she really, really read it. So that was great.

[Al Rosenberg]

And the story about Kira, I assume that you had her full support to write this?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

That's a personal story. And her ending.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, no, it was hard to write but it was good. And you know, yeah, obviously I ran it by her. You know, she read it like, is this okay? I'm just like, I can take it out completely. Like I've talked about it in the public before. It's. It's known a little bit, but it's going to be more known. And yeah, she was fine with it. I mean, she actually. She also gave me good feedback because in one sentence, it wasn't clear enough to her that this was a clinical trial, not just the doctor winging it. And I'm like, yeah, it was a proper clinical trial. So, yeah, you're right. Let's reword that. So that was good. And, yeah, I mean, the good news. So the story. Just because the people who are listening to us and watching us won't have read the book yet, but of course they're all going to rush out and buy it. But when she was born, it was basically just a few days before I started Wikipedia and she had a relatively rare illness, and I needed to make a decision, and I rushed to the Internet and the information I could find was just. It wasn't great. It was either academic research, which was. I understood above my head. I mean, you think you can read it, but it's hard to get the nuance and the real meaning of that, or it was random blog posts or whatever. It just wasn't that helpful. And I was like. I had tried for two years at that point, nearly two years to make an encyclopedia called Nupedia. And I was close to giving up because it wasn't working. And I was like, no, you know what? I actually have to double down. Like, life's too short. These things happen. We're going to rip up the plan of Nupedia and we're going to start Wikipedia. So started Wikipedia. It's great. That ended well. Kira, she was completely cured by this amazing doctor in San Diego. His name is in the book. Dr. Rosenschein. Rosenfeld. Rosen, not Rosenberg. That's my friend Mel. But it was fantastic. And so she's completely fine. Yeah, I just. She came to visit and Jim, you know that your.

[Al Rosenberg]

Your ladies. Yeah, they have a special place in my heart because I wrote a children's book for them. And I don't know if you remember, called the. For Jeff Pulver and for you called the Jeff the Miss Fish and Jimmy the Whale.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah. Jimmy the Whale.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wales]

So they have a. Yeah, well, the kids have it. Yeah. I should have.

[Al Rosenberg]

I should have gone up and Today is about you. I just wanted to throw that out. That's wonderful, wonderful memory. So please give them my love.

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[Al Rosenberg]

And so let's now segue back to Nupedia and Wikipedia. Because in Nupedia you didn't trust anybody. Really. I mean.

[Jimmy Wales]

That'S right.

[Al Rosenberg]

It was for stunken professors like me. Yeah, Mel, we really want you to write about something. But there's the seven rules of mistrust. You have to fly through seven hoops. And looking back and I'm thinking to myself, jimmy, why would a professor do that for free? And when you write in the story that after a year or two there was only 21 articles, I say to myself, who are the machine getting guys who wrote those articles? That's one of them. Yeah, I did get paid for it. So what I really want to ask you is this transition because you had. I don't know, doesn't say how much you had lost supporting Upedia, I'm assuming a few Hundred thousand dollars.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was in that ballpark for sure.

[Al Rosenberg]

And Wikipedia was kind of a last straw, wasn't it? I mean, you were clutching at things.

[Jimmy Wales]

No, it really was, it was, you know, because there was this seven stage review process to get anything published and I actually don't. You've creatively come up with the seven rules of mistrust. I had not thought or ever said that, but it was a seven stage process and it was clear, like the whole process was, oh, send us your CV and prove you're qualified. It was that sort of thing. We're going to take it and we're going to send it to the most prestigious professors we can find. Then we're going to send it to copy editors and you're going to have to deal with that. And in the end, what worked was. And that transition was really out of that moment of say, well, look, this just isn't working. And even at the beginning of Wikipedia, I thought, well, look, we've got this great group of people on the mailing list, people talking about making an encyclopedia. We've got a few, as you say, who've managed to go through these ridiculous hoops we had put in place. Let's just free ourselves up a little and start writing. And obviously we're going to have to lock everything down eventually, but let's just get started and see how it goes. Turns out everything is still very, very open today. Obviously there's more rules and there's more locking and this and that. But broadly, one of the big lessons there is one of the rules of trust is to get trust, give trust to say to people, yeah, come and edit, I trust you. Let's do our best and let's do it in goodwill and we won't get everything right and we'll have things we have to debate about and so forth actually worked because people do respond well to that. And for me, I think that that lesson is one that really resonates for me in many, many aspects of life, of business and even in personal life, because we've talked about my kids a little. I actually think for parents, parents of teenagers is particularly where trust starts to be an issue. Because before that, whatever, the kids are just there and they're not trying to do anything. But that growth of, from being a child who depends on you for everything and who asks, you know, is it okay if I go to the bathroom, you know, to someone who's beginning to become independent and is on their way to being an independent adult who will make their own Decisions. There's a lot of complications in that era around trust. And I do, I really do believe, and I found in my experience as a dad, one of the things that really does work is to say, but explicitly to say, oh, you want to do this thing? Okay, yeah, I trust you, but live up to that trust. And they, they do, they like to. Not. Not every kid, not every instance. Right. And then you have to think about, okay, yeah, I said I trust you and, and they said, yes, I'll be trustworthy. And then they didn't do the right thing. Okay, then you've got to figure out how to. What are the consequences. But that's fine, that's part of growing up and that like if you treat it that way rather than. I think too many parents are just like, it's all total lockdown and the kids are rebelling left and right. And you know, it's not a magic solution. There's as many personalities as there are people. But broadly I think it's really important to just say, you know what, I trust you and you know, live up with that trust. And by the way, you can trust me.

[Al Rosenberg]

Right?

[Jimmy Wales]

If I said you can do the thing, then later when I change my mind, I'm going to have to say, you know what? I did tell you. Yes. So I'm going to live up to that. I'm not so sure now but you know, I'm not changing the rules out from under you. So anyway, I can go on for hours as a complete non expert but trying to draw lessons from different parts of life to, to think about how to. Yeah. How to have a slightly better life in some way.

[Al Rosenberg]

Well, I, I can, I've. I've known you and we get to, to actually meet and have breakfast or coffee once seven or 10 years. And for people who don't know, Jimmy, you really are a modest, kind person and you've addressed my classes over the Internet. And last time we had coffee and I gave you my suspenders, which I regretted because I pulled my pants all across London. I don't remember which daughter loved them.

[Jimmy Wales]

They had music symbols on them. Yeah, it's Kira. Kira, the violinist.

[Al Rosenberg]

My best confinement. That's a healthy. But that was. I trusted her, you see, because I had to walk through London all the. My pants up like that. That's how much I love you guys. So you are very modest and there's a couple of things now I want to ask you a ton of things. So the transition from Nupedia to Wikipedia, like did you really, Jimmy, I Need you to be I need to trust you now hand on your hand on your heart. Did you really think this was going to work?

[Jimmy Wales]

Well, I always say I'm a pathological optimist, so I always think things are going to work. But I will say initially I had worries. I didn't know for sure. So even though I thought, yeah, let's give it a try, I had a few assumptions that ended up not being correct. I assumed that what you would need is some sort of an editor in chief of the, you know, like the American Civil War history section of Wikipedia. You're going to need somebody who's the boss of that area. Turns out that's never even been a question. Like, it's completely unnecessary. And those articles are amazing, you know, because it turns out there's a lot of people who are enthusiasts, hobbyists, who have a passion for a particular era in history. There's also a lot of people who are just Wikipedians and they're, they're good about, like, oh, we need good sources and we need to, to check each other's facts and so forth. So that's important. And, you know, so. And I also remember in the, in the very early days, because the early software was super vulnerable to, to problems like, you know, when, when you've only got, say, a dozen people working on the website and only 50 pages, somebody could come in in the middle of the night and trash the whole site, no problem. Like, it wouldn't take much effort and I would worry, I would wake up in the middle of night and go and check on the site. No, it's all fine. And then I pretty quickly, I noticed, oh, yeah, there's this guy in Australia. When I'm asleep, he's awake and he's on these. He's reverted. Some vandalism, he's looking after things. And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, actually a community can actually do this, like, if enough people are looking out for it. And, you know, we see this in society. Like a lot of the things that really work about society, they really work when people just have a, basically a good attitude, like decency, you know, like we, I think we all pretty much trust, you know, if you're at a, a sporting event and you see a kid, a little kid, three years old, and they're crying and they look a little lost. I mean, people are, they'll. Oh, hold on. Like, let's, okay, where. There's the security people, you know, let, let's see. They're going to look after a little kid. Because people are decent and that's kind of what works.

[Al Rosenberg]

You, you grew up in a. In a small city with a wonderful family and you went to school. I'm saying this because, you know, I've written a children's book about you and you studied in one of the smallest schools in the world, and you are a trustful and trustworthy person. But time and again, Wikipedia is a sale. I don't want to get into this recent dispute because I'm Jewish and live in Israel and I don't think I can be too objective. But every once in a while there is some group who's assailing Wikipedia, especially the neutrality. I know that you didn't change, you didn't block, but you kind of put your foot down every couple of years and say, this is not Wikipedia.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, I do think one of the things, one of the values of Wikipedia is neutrality, neutral point of view. In the early days, I said non negotiable. And what does neutrality mean? Obviously, that's a tough philosophical subject in many cases, so you've got to grapple with it. There's no magic answer for me. One of the biggest things that it means, and this is where I think in some cases we've fallen down at various times and, you know, this sort of. The recent statements I made were around like, I think we can do better. Here is the question of, do you say it in the voice of Wikipedia or do you just report on what other people have said? And so where am.

[Al Rosenberg]

Lost you again for a second, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Wales]

Qualify it.

[Al Rosenberg]

I'm back.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yep. There are plenty of things you can just say. I'll just repeat in case I was the one cutting out and no one heard me. Plenty of things you can. Can say without qualifying it. You know, Paris is a city in France. You don't. You don't. Right. Well, according to this authority, Paris is a city that's not controversial. There's no. There's cons. There's universal consent.

[Al Rosenberg]

No, we're having some issues. I'm back.

[Jimmy Wales]

Oh, when there are objections. I'm just looking at my Internet here. I hope it's good. I'm going to switch a little bit. It should be seamless.

[Al Rosenberg]

All the bandwidth is going to Wikipedia.

[Jimmy Wales]

You think so when we. But if there is a legitimate controversy, Right. And there are different points of view and different things could be said about it, then Wikipedia should always refrain from saying. And that doesn't mean we're completely agnostic about everything. You don't say, oh, the moon, Some say rocks, some say Cheese, who knows, right? That's not neutrality. But you can say the scientific observations say this and so forth and you know, controversial political issue. You can say, you know, this UN committee has said this and the German government said the opposite that and this and that. And you know, and you weigh it up and you get a picture and even that's. It doesn't, it's not a magic solution because you can be really one sided or not one sided in how you choose those things. But at the very minimum, like the very first step is to say, like it's not for Wikipedia to say, right? And so one of the ones that I talk about in the book that I think, I do think we were very, very good about, I'm not sure exactly what I'm about to say might not exactly be in the book, but we talk about the general area is okay. If you, if you look back at the COVID the pandemic era, like one of the really interesting open questions was is, et cetera, like what is the efficacy of masks in a public health setting? So I'm going to give my perspective, which I think is pretty balanced, but it's sort of, it's what you'll read in Wikipedia, which is to say, well, in a hospital setting, worn by professionals, properly trained, good quality N95 mask changed in regular. There is good evidence that it reduces transmission. When I would get on the tube here in London and see people wearing it half off, half on, on the bus and things like that, was it really helping or was it not helping? It's a little, the evidence, as you might think is a little bit mixed, right? And so those are the facts, right? And unfortunately that's one of those questions that got so politicized that if you were in some parts of the US even if you were wearing a mask, that was a sign I am left wing. And if you were refusing to wear a mask, that's a sign I'm right wing. And it's like, no, actually there is a fact based question here and Wikipedia shouldn't say, well, the only people against masks are anti science. Therefore we're going to say masks always work. No, to say like actually it's complicated, right? And here's the evidence for this, here's the evidence for that. And it's not for Wikipedia to tell you, for Wikipedia to help you grapple with that argument in a good way. And so that's where I think we ought to be. And yeah, none of these things happen by magic. I mean, occasionally I try to stay out of things as much as possible. Because it's not for me to, to say what Wikipedia should say, but it is for me to remind people, you know what? One of the reasons that people trust us, one of the reasons that we've become successful, is the sense that broadly, while Wikipedia may have certain biases of our age, of our era, and that's always going to be the case, like, that this is the way the world is, you know, like, would Wikipedia at some point in the past talked about leeches as being good in medicine? Well, it might have, because that was the received wisdom of the day. Hopefully, I would say as soon as that started being challenged, it wouldn't be in the voice of Wikipedia. It would be like, well, here's a traditional thing and this is what has been believed. However, there's some new evidence that suggests that that's great, like, that's what we should be doing. So that's kind of where I am. And I do think for Wikipedia it's really important. So, you know, and one of my complaints, and this is definitely in the book, to Elon Musk, who likes to call us Wokipedia, which is just not true. Like, I know lots of Wikipedians and yeah, Wikipedia is not perfect, but the idea that we've been taken over by crazy left wing activists is just overblown. Like, that's not the case. But one of the best answers to that isn't to say, oh, well, my complaint to Elon is like, if you go around saying, yeah, Wikipedia's been taken over by crazy activists, it has two bad effects. One, kind and thoughtful, intellectually curious conservatives are being told, don't go to Wikipedia. It's full of crazy activists. And they'll just yell at you. And your crazy left wing activists will be like, yay, Wikipedia, our new home. And then we have to put up with them or deal with them and get rid of them. Like, it's hard. What we really want is people of intellectual diversity. In a spirit of the enlightening experiment of let's be curious together. Oh, I don't agree with you about this. Okay, that's okay. Like, we can still talk. We're still human beings. Maybe we can't agree about what the correct answer is, but we can agree what the debate is about. And again, we won't use the voice of Wikipedia. We'll start to explain what are people fighting about. And that's enormously valuable because, you know, to the extent that our media has become more polarized, you know, we need to play that role.

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[Jimmy Wales]

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[Jimmy Wales]

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[Jimmy Wales]

Did I burn down the joy?

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[Jimmy Wales]

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[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah, me, I said I'm worried now that we're running out of time, so I'm going to segue to media. So, and this is. I think it's your main. I just think you devoted a chapter to the Reddit, you know, tell me I'm wrong.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, change my view. Yeah, I love.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah. Which I love. But let's go to the media. You were at some stage so pissed off that you and Orit set up this Wiki Tribune in a couple of sentences. Why did you do it? Didn't you realize that it was going back to Nupedia and that it's not going to fly?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah. So Wiki Tribune was an effort, really an exploration, to say, like something's gone really wrong. Like the media is not neutral. It's either left or right. And too often not. Not all media. By the way, there's a big scandal about the BBC at the moment. I think despite that, the BBC broadly does a pretty good job. They've got their problems, like everybody. But what I Realize is like, so.

[Al Rosenberg]

First the Jews of the world would take an issue with that. But I'll let that pass. I'll let that pass.

[Jimmy Wales]

No, but I would actually still, I would defend it in this way while acknowledging what you're saying, which is to say they have blind spots and that's one of their blind spots. That's one of the areas they haven't been getting it right. But on lots of areas they are largely fine, you know, so it's a problem like they need to sort themselves out. But that's a different. We could have a whole hour on that.

[Al Rosenberg]

But yeah, I'm trying to stay away from it in two sentences. Why did you do Wiki Tribune? Yeah, yeah, I think the world of Ari. And why did you see.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, so Wiki Tribune was an effort to find ways that we could get journalists and citizen reporters to work together. And actually what happened and what I learned from it is, first of all, the problem with journalism and media isn't. Doesn't rest with journalism actually. It rests with the broader environment. So the undermining of the business model of journalism, the. The rise of clickbait headlines, just trying to get eyeballs, trying to get traffic, ad driven, et cetera, that's where the problem lies. Which is why I've segued into Trust Cafe and experiment in social networking. And can we have more trusted people who are highlighted in social networking rather than the most viral people and the most hostile people and so on? Still experimenting. I'm always curious, always trying to learn. But yeah, we contributed, did work, because one of the reasons is, as it turns out, you know, most people can't do citizen journalism. Not because, as journalists sometimes think that they're the only people who can understand and explain the world to people because they're trained journalists, but because they've got the time to go out and get the story. And most people, like you can write a Wikipedia entry about some obscure fact of history and you can do it over the course of weeks or months because you dabble along and you read a book and you come back and you add something. News happens today and then it's finished tomorrow and you need to drop everything one day and go out and get the story and people just don't have the time, even if they have a passion for that idea and they would love to do it, they've got a different job and so on. So I just, I've come to the conclusion that citizen journalism, in the sense of that straight fact reporting, it's just not possible to do without people who can devote full time to it. So that's what. Why that didn't work. And you know that anybody listening is probably like, well, Jimmy, that's obvious. I'm like, okay, well, it is to me now, but it wasn't at the time.

[Al Rosenberg]

So for. For as. As far as I'm concerned, I cannot trust journalism, period. I have trouble trusting everything I. I studied as a student of Karl Popper. I. I don't trust. I don't trust anything. I don't trust science. I don't trust Karl Popper. I don't trust myself. That's just a thing. So here's the other thing I wanted to ask. Shakespeare wrote 400 years ago in Twelfth Night, some people are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Which. Which category are you giving?

[Jimmy Wales]

Well, well, I mean, after you've said so many times how unassuming I am, I'm going to have to protest against the great piece. But I feel in many ways my role just in the sense that it never occurred to me as a boy from Alabama that, you know, I would have this kind of pretty heavy responsibility to sort of say, okay, like, let's remember what we're doing here. Like, my, My role within the Wikipedia world is as much as anything, just a coach, a reminder. I compare it to a royal type of role, but not like Henry VIII royal, more like Queen Elizabeth ii, I. E. You know, people listen to me sometimes, and my job is to remind people of the values and who we are and sort of help provide a bit of identity.

[Al Rosenberg]

Wikipedians cherish you, but they also have all kinds of royal nicknames to you, you know, Sun God, God, King, and.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, not really. Not really. They also. Yeah, but. But yeah. And I do think, you know, it's like, I think for all of us, you know, the. The opportunity to do something, make something a little bit better happens all the time, and. And we just have to roll with it and live up to it.

[Al Rosenberg]

You did me. You did me a journalist thing. Now, you didn't answer my question.

[Jimmy Wales]

Oh, oh, I think I did pick. Thrust upon me. It was thrust upon me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't. Sorry. Be.

[Al Rosenberg]

Clarify this, dad. Sorry for me.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

Which brings me to page 153. Okay. Oh, right. I'm not going into this thing of calling you the founder, the co. Founder, semi founder. For me, you are the amazing, marvelous guy behind Wikipedia. That's, you know, you're the father, the driving Force. And so now on page 153, you talk about Larry Sanger and Dr. Larry Sanger, and you say that Larry did not get enough credit.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

Can you give me a few more sentences? And then I'm going to ask you grade three?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, no, I think this is really important because there has been this sort of traditional co. Founder. Founder, which I think is a silly debate. I actually. I stormed out of a podcast. Guy kept needling me about it. I'm like, literally, I don't care. Like, it's not important. I should have stayed a minute longer.

[Al Rosenberg]

I did see that, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, I should have stayed a minute longer to.

[Al Rosenberg]

I was worried you're going to run out on me, too.

[Jimmy Wales]

No, no, no, no, no. It's completely fine. I should have stayed a little. It was his hostility that was bothering me, but I should have stayed a little longer to say this part, which is like, you know, like, that's actually irrelevant. Larry doesn't get enough credit for his early work, for his ideas. I think he's wrong. He's got some recommendations for Wikipedia today and some complaints. I don't agree with them all. A couple of them are kind of interesting. Some of them. I think he doesn't really know Wikipedia today, and so I wouldn't think he's identified some things that he would change that aren't actually the problem. So, you know, there's that. But I just think, for me, like, he wrote this. It's called the. What is it? Nine Theses after Martin Luther. And basically, people are wanting me to respond. And I said, well, look, he very clearly said he spent months working on these. And even though I disagree and I've got some things I could say, it would be disrespectful for me to just one afternoon dash off a reply. Like, I want to grapple with them. I want to think about them. I want the community to think about them and reject the ones that we think don't work. But, I mean, this is a. For me, it's always. One of the components of trust is when we get a complaint, you have to. You have to grapple with it. You have to take it seriously. And sometimes the grappling is very quick. You know, it's like if someone says, well, Wikipedia is completely biased because it doesn't say that the moon is made of cheese. Okay, let me think about that. Yeah, okay, fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. But in other cases, I think you can say, like, hold on. Okay, what could we do better? How can we get to more consensus. How can we get, you know, what can we do to improve? What are we getting wrong? Because there'll always be something to improve. And if you lose that spirit of desiring to improve, then you really are lost.

[Al Rosenberg]

But Jimmy, okay, And from what I've read, and you correct me, Larry was, you hired him. He was hugely important in getting Upedia defined and going. Yeah. And also in getting Wikipedia defined and going. Let's now leave his debate on what Wikipedia should have been aside. There is an. You know, I have an invention that the co inventor was the guy who disagreed with me. And to show him what a jerk he was, I did an addition. Actually my master's student did an additional experiment, then that became the invention. So, you know, whether I think he invented or not, he was on the path. So, so my question is, Larry, whether he eventually got it wrong or backwards. He, he, he, he, he made it happen sometimes in an opposite direction, but so what?

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, I mean, you know, when people ask me what I would do differently, you know, one of the things I say is it's really hard to answer that question because even the things that we did wrong, we learned from. Like Nupedia was. In one sense, Nupedia was a two year colossal waste of time.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wales]

In another sense, it wasn't because we tried something. We learned, we fought, we had conversations.

[Al Rosenberg]

If you go over the lives and tribulations of any inventor or scientist. Right. It's always like that. You get it wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And then. Oh my goodness.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

Yeah, my goodness. Exactly. Look at this. So, and the, the other thing is, and this is really important for, for, for trust. Okay. When I read your book, you said you don't want me to tell you what I did in third grade. And, and I, I do because I, I never told people what I did in second grade. So now that I have you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna divulge, Jimmy, that I was second grade. I cheated on a spelling quiz and I didn't remember how to spell surely, and I looked over at David Roses. In second grade.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah. Wow.

[Al Rosenberg]

What the hell did you do in third grade?

[Jimmy Wales]

Give us a.

[Al Rosenberg]

That was a good time.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, that's a good time. Well, there's a great story in my family. So this is confession time. Public confession time. Although my mom already knows about this, so we're okay. But my sister and I, I had been learning about centrifugal force and we had, my sister and I, who was roughly my size, my age, you know, a Year apart, and our little sister Deanna, we had this cot and I was convinced that if we swung it back and forth and then around like that. Oop, I'm going to pull my microphone out. That if we went fast enough, she would be centrifugal force. And we tried it with a stuffed animal and we practiced and it was good. We could flip. And we're like, great, Deanna, time for a ride. We shoved her in, of course she fell out, but not only she fell out, she fell out and hit her head on a nail. Nothing serious. She's fine, but made a little cut in her head and blood everywhere. And we rushed in a panic and got mom and rushed her to the hospital. It was a big panic moment. It was all fine. It's a tiny scratch, you know, if you get a little cut on your head, it bleeds a lot. And it's because it's your head. Everybody's freaking out. Anyway, some years later, we did fess up to mom. As adults, we're like, yeah, mom, you know what happened? Listen to this. Mom was like, what? Deanna cut her head. I don't remember that at all. All these years we thought it was trauma, but anyway, so that's what I did. That was. I was probably in fourth grade at the time.

[Al Rosenberg]

So, Jimmy, now I can say that I really trust you.

[Jimmy Wales]

Very good.

[Al Rosenberg]

Is there anything. I was so excited that I forgot to add that this is an interview for the New Books Network, and I host the Children's Channel, and I asked them for special permission to do this interview with you, and they kindly acquiesced. And is there anything that I haven't asked you?

[Jimmy Wales]

No, it's good. I mean, I think for me, one of the things about the book is it's pretty wide ranging. So we've done a good job of talking about various different aspects of trust and so forth. Often in interviews, I end up talking a lot about global issues and politics and Donald Trump and this and that and the other. But actually, the book is a little bit. It's a blueprint. It's supposed to be practical. Because you or I, no one, we can't take action to say, oh, there's a huge problem. Trust in journalism has fallen to an all time low. Let's fix that. Well, I don't know. What do I do? Like, I can't fix that. But what I can do is think about my organization. I can think about my work, I can think about my relationships and think, how do I build a culture of trust? And that does Infect the rest of the world and we can get back to a culture of trust, I believe.

[Al Rosenberg]

Okay, that's a great way to finish off. And Jimmy, I still do want to have breakfast in London. Would be one of.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, London or Israel next time I'm there. So. Great. Fantastic.

[Al Rosenberg]

And really, the book is remarkable. I read it several times and, you know, but I read it.

[Jimmy Wales]

Me too.

[Al Rosenberg]

You read it several times?

[Jimmy Wales]

I did the audiobook. That was a great experience. We were talking a little earlier about the authorship aspect of it, and I read the audiobook myself. I really enjoyed it. There was a guy on the other end of the line, unfortunately, I can't remember his name, but he's an actor. He was in Star Wars. He's in his 80s now, and he had this amazing, most beautiful voice. And so he would coach me through lines. Like he would listen and he would say, ah, you read this line this way. But when I read it, I thought you meant it that way. And I was like, yes, you're right, I did. And so then I would reread it with his intonation. I'm like, it's so good. So it was a lovely. And it was also the first time I obviously, as we wrote, I wrote, I read chapter by chapter. At the end, when we finished, I read the entire thing cover to cover for final publication. But it's the first time I'd read it out loud. And that was. It was a good experience. So if people like audiobooks, I read it myself. So hopefully, if you don't find my note voice too annoying, you might want.

[Al Rosenberg]

To get that one in less than six hours. I mean, you can actually sit on a plane and.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, it took a little longer. It took a little longer to. To. To make it, but not took over two days, sort of five hours a day. It was good.

[Al Rosenberg]

Fantastic. And. And Jimmy, I hope that perhaps there's some. A publisher that is interested in the book of your childhood and academia.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[Al Rosenberg]

Which I hope will be probably.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, I. I don't. I don't usually give people access to my mom, but I let you talk to my mom, so that was great.

[Al Rosenberg]

It's a matter of trust.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, it's a matter of trust. Who knows what dirt she spilled on me, but it'll be good.

[Al Rosenberg]

It was good dirt.

[Jimmy Wales]

Great. Fantastic.

[Al Rosenberg]

She loves you and it's been great. And thank you on behalf of.

[Jimmy Wales]

Great. Thank you.

[Al Rosenberg]

Billions of people that.

[Jimmy Wales]

That's very kind.

[Al Rosenberg]

Use this wonderful invention.

[Jimmy Wales]

That's very kind. Thank you.

[Al Rosenberg]

Okay, so, Jimmy, thanks. Be well and run off to the next.

[Jimmy Wales]

Yeah, next thing. Great.

[Al Rosenberg]

Take care.

[Jimmy Wales]

Bye. Bye.

[Al Rosenberg]

One second. I forgot to say who I was. Oh, I should say who I am. I'm Al Rosenberg, and I am. Oh, my goodness, what am I? The host of the Children's Literature Channel. Outside of my channel, outside of my comfort zone. And I've been with Jimmy Wales, and we've been talkies who is the father of Wikipedia. And we've been talking about his wonderful new book. Now, Hank pulled it up for everybody to see.

[Jimmy Wales]

Oh, right.

[Al Rosenberg]

Jim, hold your book up. There we go. The Seven Rules of Trust. A Blueprint for Building Things that Last, by the one and only Jimmy Wales. Thanks a million.

[Jimmy Wales]

Thanks, Mel.