New Books Network — Jimmy Wales on "The Seven Rules of Trust"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Al Rosenberg
Guest: Jimmy Wales (with Dan Gardner’s work discussed)
Book: The Seven Rules of Trust: A Blueprint for Building Things That Last (Crown Currency, 2025)

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode is a rich, candid conversation between Al Rosenberg and Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, about Wales’ new book The Seven Rules of Trust, co-authored with Dan Gardner. The discussion explores the origins and writing process of the book, personal and professional stories about trust, the lessons from Wikipedia’s community, the difficulties of modern media, and how trust underpins decision-making and institutional resilience. Wales also reflects on neutrality, controversy, and his unique leadership journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Writing Process of the Book

• Genesis of the Book

  • Wales describes how a conversation with David Drake at Crown inspired him to approach his book as a series of essays rather than a daunting linear narrative.

    “I’ve always wanted to do something… but it’s very intimidating. Like, have a bit of a writer’s block… [David] said, you could just do a series of essays. And that actually unblocked me.” (03:38)

  • The recurring theme of trust emerged organically from these essays, convincing Wales to structure the book around this central idea.

• Collaboration with Dan Gardner

  • After a year of writing, Wales felt “stuck”—the narrative was unwieldy. Gardner’s experience (“he’s written a couple of New York Times bestsellers”) brought fresh structure and energy to the project.
  • Gardner also encouraged Wales to conduct interviews with notable figures, such as Airbnb’s founder, Christiane Amanpour, Tom Friedman, Frances Frei, and numerous “Wikipedians.”

    “It was fun at first, then it wasn’t fun. Then I brought in Dan and it was fun again.” (06:14)

The Personal Side of Trust

• Acknowledgments and Family

  • Wales emotionally recalls his daughter Ada providing detailed feedback and corrections on the proof copy, and another daughter Kira’s experience inspiring critical shifts in his early career (Wikipedia was launched just after her birth and medical crisis).

    “She actually read the book… and came back to me with a hand-written two pages of notes.” (10:15)
    [On Kira’s illness and Wikipedia’s founding:] “It just wasn’t that helpful… I had to double down. Life’s too short. We’re going to rip up the plan of Nupedia and we’re going to start Wikipedia.” (12:18–13:38)

• Family Support

  • His family’s input was crucial, both in feedback and emotional sustenance—including feedback from his wife, Kate.
  • The dedication, “To the Wikipedians, without whom I could not have written a book… and to my girls, whom I could not have written any book.” (09:42)

Wikipedia and the Evolution of Trust

• The Nupedia-to-Wikipedia Shift

  • The initial project, Nupedia, required a rigorous seven-stage editorial process (“seven rules of mistrust”), which stifled productivity (21 articles after years).

    “Looking back… after a year or two there were only 21 articles… and Wikipedia was kind of a last straw, wasn’t it?” (17:44)

  • Opening things up led to Wikipedia’s core rule: to get trust, you must first give trust.

    “One of the big lessons there is—one of the rules of trust is to get trust, give trust. To say to people: yeah, come and edit, I trust you. Let’s do our best and let’s do it in goodwill.” (18:54)

  • He draws a direct line from this lesson to parenting and organizational life, noting that giving trust allows for reciprocal responsibility and growth.

Leadership and Community

• Role as a Leader
  • Wales is “a pathological optimist,” but admits to surprise at Wikipedia’s growth and the sustained cooperation within a global volunteer community.

    “I assumed that what you would need is some sort of an editor in chief… Turns out that’s never even been a question.” (22:40)

  • Realized quickly that a distributed, trust-based system worked better than hierarchical control.

The Value (and Challenge) of Neutrality

• Neutral Point of View as Non-Negotiable

  • Wales emphasizes neutrality as Wikipedia’s core, acknowledging it’s a “tough philosophical subject”—especially during controversies.

    “In the early days, [neutrality] was non-negotiable… What does neutrality mean? … That’s a tough philosophical subject… there’s no magic answer.” (26:00)

  • Neutrality doesn’t mean false equivalency (“the moon is not cheese”), but Wikipedia must present what reliable sources say in controversial areas.

    “If there is a legitimate controversy… Wikipedia should always refrain from saying [in its own voice].” (27:23)

• On Criticisms of Wikipedia

  • Responding to charges of left-leaning “Wokipedia," Wales argues that intellectual diversity and curiosity are vital to the project’s credibility.

    “The idea that we’ve been taken over by crazy left wing activists is just overblown. That’s not the case… we really want people of intellectual diversity in a spirit of the enlightenment experiment—let’s be curious together.” (31:50)

Trust, Media, and Journalism

• Attempts to Fix Journalism: WikiTribune

  • Wales describes launching WikiTribune with Orit as an attempt to restore neutrality and reliability in media by blending professional journalists with citizen reporters.

    “WikiTribune was an effort to find ways that we could get journalists and citizen reporters to work together. What I learned… the problem… doesn’t rest with journalism. It rests with the broader environment…” (34:36)

  • The business model of journalism—driven by ad clicks and “clickbait"—makes true neutrality hard to sustain.

  • Key Lesson:

    “Citizen journalism… is just not possible to do without people who can devote full time to it.” (36:09)

Reflections on Greatness and Responsibility

• On Having “Greatness Thrust Upon You”

  • Rosenberg asks if Wales was born great, achieved it, or had it “thrust upon him” (paraphrasing Shakespeare).

    “It was thrust upon me… My role within the Wikipedia world is as much as anything just a coach, a reminder… to help provide a bit of identity.” (38:09–39:00)

• Teamwork and Credit

  • Wales agrees co-founder Larry Sanger deserves more credit than he tends to receive for early ideas and work, even if they disagree on Wikipedia’s later direction.

    “Larry doesn’t get enough credit for his early work, for his ideas. I think he’s wrong about some things, but… you have to grapple with complaints seriously.” (40:17)

Trust as a Practical Framework

• Blueprint for Leadership and Everyday Life

  • The book is designed as a practical guide for shaping trust – not just in global issues, but within organizations and personal relationships.

    “It’s a blueprint, supposed to be practical. Because you or I… we can’t take action… to fix trust in journalism… But we can think about our own organizations… How do I build a culture of trust?” (46:46)

• Personal Anecdotes on Trust

  • Wales and Rosenberg end the conversation by sharing stories of mistakes made in childhood—cheating in second grade, a misguided science experiment that led to a minor injury ("centrifugal force" mishap)—to underline the universal, human side of trust-building.

    “That was a confession time. Public confession. Although my mom already knows about this…” (44:41)

• On Audiobooks

  • Wales himself narrates the audiobook, coached by a venerable Star Wars actor.

    “I read the audiobook myself. There was a guy… he would coach me through lines… It was a good experience.” (48:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the philosophy of trust:

  “To get trust, give trust.” —Jimmy Wales (18:54)

• On personal lessons:

  “Most people who say they want to write a book actually want to have written a book. And I thought that was very insightful… But the truth is, I want to have written a book. I like this stage.” —Jimmy Wales (08:03)

• On leadership:

  “My role within the Wikipedia world is… just a coach, a reminder… to help provide a bit of identity.” —Jimmy Wales (39:00)

• On neutrality:

  “Wikipedia shouldn’t say, well, the only people against masks are anti-science. No, to say: actually it’s complicated… and it’s not for Wikipedia to tell you, but to help you grapple with that argument in a good way.” —Jimmy Wales (28:40)

• On failure and iteration:

  “Even the things that we did wrong, we learned from… Nupedia was a two-year colossal waste of time. In another sense, it wasn’t because we tried something. We learned, we fought, we had conversations.” —Jimmy Wales (43:30)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Book Genesis and Writer’s Block (03:38)
• Bringing in Dan Gardner / Interviews (06:14)
• Family Involvement and Feedback (10:15–12:08)
• Kira’s Medical Crisis, Wikipedia’s Launch (12:18–13:38)
• From Nupedia to Wikipedia—The Shift to Trust (17:44–18:54)
• Parenting and Trust (19:48–21:26)
• Wikipedia’s Non-Hierarchical Community (22:40–25:06)
• Neutrality and Handling Controversy (26:00–32:30)
• WikiTribune and Lessons from Journalism (34:36–36:09)
• Handling Greatness and Responsibility (38:09–39:00)
• Credit to Larry Sanger (40:17–43:30)
• Reflections on Mistakes and Trust (44:41–46:17)
• Blueprint for Building Trust (Book’s Practical Value) (46:46)
• Audiobook Experience (48:03)

Final Thoughts

This conversation eloquently demonstrates how Jimmy Wales applies his “seven rules” to life, leadership, and the digital commons. Key insights include the humility to learn from mistakes, the necessity of both granting and earning trust, and the imperative of neutrality and curiosity—especially in a polarized age. Both personal and practical, the episode offers a roadmap for anyone concerned with building things, from organizations to enduring relationships, that last.

If you want models for building trust, you’d be hard-pressed to find a better guide than the story behind Wikipedia—and the lessons Wales and Gardner have distilled in their book.