Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: John Bodnar, "Divided by Terror: American Patriotism after 9/11"
Host: John Armenta
Guest: John Bodnar (Distinguished Emeritus Professor, Indiana University)
Date: November 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features historian John Bodnar discussing his book Divided by Terror: American Patriotism After 9/11. The conversation explores how the attacks of September 11, 2001, not only shaped America's "War on Terror" but also ignited deep national debates over the meaning and expression of patriotism. Bodnar's analysis distinguishes between "war-based" (belligerent) and "empathetic" forms of patriotism, examining how these competing visions played out in public discourse, media, memorialization, family responses, and political rhetoric from 2001 to the present.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. John Bodnar’s Scholarly Background and Book Genesis

[03:06 – 13:39]

• Bodnar’s previous works on WWII and Vietnam memory sparked his interest in how the U.S. commemorates war and violence.

• He emphasizes that collective memory is contested; not all veterans or citizens share the same patriotic narrative.

• Notable Quote:
  “Clearly we were debating issues about the memory of war, about our encounters with violence, and about war and patriotism itself that I thought had never really been sufficiently addressed by academic scholarship.”
  — John Bodnar [05:25]

• Bodnar describes how historical myth-making often sanitizes war, focusing on nobility and sacrifice while glossing over trauma, dissent, and the capacity for violence within the U.S. itself.

2. Defining Patriotism & Competing Forms

[13:39 – 20:39]

• Patriotism is presented as a cultural idea—one with variable definitions and applications.
• Bodnar distinguishes between:
  • War-based (Belligerent) Patriotism: Willingness to defend the nation through aggressive or violent means, sometimes directed even at internal "others."
  • Empathetic Patriotism: Emphasis on compassion, shared suffering, and a commitment to national tolerance and reflection.
• Notable Quote:
  “It wasn't only about love, but it could be about aggression and hate… people who felt they loved their country and were quite patriotic were more than willing to turn aggression toward people in the country.”
  — John Bodnar [15:45]

3. The Role of Myth in Shaping Patriotism

[22:09 – 26:34]

• Myths help societies simplify complex, painful realities—such as idealizing WWII as “the good war.”
• These myths overlook internal dissent, trauma, and the dark side of wartime actions.
• Bodnar notes the power of leaders like Lincoln and FDR to reframe sacrifice as a means toward greater democracy, but observes how this justification is often diluted in popular memory.
• Notable Quote:
  “Myth is a way to make convoluted and harsh realities and complex situations more understandable… It’s easier to accept, but it leaves a lot out.”
  — John Bodnar [22:49]

4. Immediate Post-9/11 Patriotism: Public Response and Sources

[26:34 – 33:25]

• After 9/11, there was a surge in public, war-based patriotism—flag-waving and demands for retaliation.
• The Library of Congress collected a wide array of public and private reactions, including emails and reminiscences, which Bodnar deeply mined.
• Initial confusion and trauma led to a need for cultural coherence—filled by government rhetoric and the "war on terror."
• Notable Quote:
  “There was fear, there was panic, there was anxiety, there was confusion… it sort of set the ground for a president to come up with an answer to all this confusion and uncertainty and anger.”
  — John Bodnar [30:41]

5. Debates Over Memorialization and the Meaning of Sacrifice

[33:25 – 40:42]

• The design and ethos of 9/11 memorials (such as at Ground Zero and Shanksville) largely focus on serene remembrance rather than confronting trauma or causality.
• Families of victims were divided—some wanting personal suffering recognized rather than default patriotic honors, others embracing the patriotic narrative.
• Notable Quote:
  “There were those who saw their husband’s actions as highly patriotic … and those who resented the fact that you were turning these people, their dead spouses, into honorable patriots because they said that's not what they signed up for.”
  — John Bodnar [37:42]

6. The Iraq War: Patriotism, Protest, and Gold Star Families

[40:42 – 45:17]

• The Iraq War, less directly connected to 9/11, quickly became contested.
• Atrocities like Abu Ghraib undermined the myth of virtuous American violence.
• Gold Star mothers—such as Cindy Sheehan—mobilized against the war, clashing with others who felt antiwar activism dishonored the troops.
• Notable Quote:
  “There’s plenty of stuff in the book about families … who will not accept patriotic honor as an explanation of why their sons had to die.”
  — John Bodnar [43:46]

7. The Politics and Power of Visual Imagery

[46:25 – 50:46]

• Government efforts censored images of flag-draped coffins to reduce public opposition.
• Artists and activists used visual memorials—white crosses, dog tags, photographs—to foreground war's human cost and challenge sanitized patriotism.
• Notable Quote:
  “By putting up reminders of how many were dying, you were undermining both the President’s agenda and the idea that this was a justified sacrifice.”
  — John Bodnar [49:14]

8. Veterans’ Experiences and Divided Patriotisms

[50:46 – 56:38]

• Memoirs and fiction by Iraq and Afghanistan veterans reveal deep splits: some embrace the narrative of noble sacrifice (e.g., Chris Kyle’s American Sniper), others reject patriotic explanations for trauma and loss (e.g., Kevin Powers’ The Yellow Birds).
• Notable Quote:
  “The point of the chapter is even the soldiers were divided over this point.”
  — John Bodnar [55:53]

9. Patriotism as a Tool for Internal Policing and Xenophobia

[56:38 – 61:41]

• 9/11 unleashed hostility not just at external enemies but at Muslim and immigrant communities inside the U.S.
• The Patriot Act and related policies justified mass detentions and surveillance—later mirrored in anti-immigrant campaigns on the Mexico border.
• Notable Quote:
  “The war on terror led to this sort of anti-immigrant sentiment that justified treating immigrants in unlawful ways.”
  — John Bodnar [58:10]

10. Contemporary Politics: War-Based Patriotism and Authoritarianism

[61:41 – 66:47]

• Bodnar sees today’s right-wing, belligerent patriotism—exemplified by Trump and allies—as a direct legacy of post-9/11 patterns.
• Empathetic patriotism is alive in religious and civic challenges to anti-immigrant policies, but is embattled.
• Notable Quote:
  “By using a war-based patriotism and this militarization of the border… you’re using a myth that our aggression… any violence is justified.”
  — John Bodnar [64:05]
• He warns that prior xenophobic episodes lacked today’s push towards authoritarian rule.

11. Bodnar’s Current Work

[66:47 – 67:54]

• Exploring the link between harsh immigration policies, authoritarianism, and aggressive patriotism in contemporary America.

Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• “We were debating issues about the memory of war, about our encounters with violence, and about war and patriotism itself…” — John Bodnar [05:25]
• “It wasn’t only about love, but it could be about aggression and hate… people who felt they loved their country and were quite patriotic were more than willing to turn aggression toward people in the country.” — John Bodnar [15:45]
• “Myth is a way to make convoluted and harsh realities and complex situations more understandable… It’s easier to accept, but it leaves a lot out.” — John Bodnar [22:49]
• “There was fear, there was panic… it set the ground for a president to come up with an answer to all this confusion and uncertainty and anger.” — John Bodnar [30:41]
• “There were those who saw their husband’s actions as highly patriotic… others who resented the fact you were turning their dead spouses into honorable patriots…” — John Bodnar [37:42]
• “There’s plenty of stuff in the book about families… who will not accept patriotic honor as an explanation of why their sons had to die.” — John Bodnar [43:46]
• “By putting up reminders of how many were dying, you were undermining both the President’s agenda and the idea that this was a justified sacrifice.” — John Bodnar [49:14]
• “The point of the chapter is even the soldiers were divided over this point.” — John Bodnar [55:53]
• “The war on terror led to this sort of anti-immigrant sentiment that justified treating immigrants in unlawful ways.” — John Bodnar [58:10]
• “By using a war-based patriotism and this militarization of the border… you’re using a myth that… any violence is justified.” — John Bodnar [64:05]

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Introduction to Bodnar’s background and interest in patriotism [03:06]
• Belligerent versus empathetic patriotism definition [14:04]
• Why myths shape public memory of war [22:09]
• How 9/11 correspondences and emails were archived [29:18]
• Memorial debates: families vs. politicians [34:33]
• Split among veterans in their memoirs and public narratives [51:17]
• Cindy Sheehan’s protest and Gold Star family divides [43:46]
• The linkage of post-9/11 xenophobia to ongoing immigration policy [57:35]
• Connection to Trump-era and modern right-wing authoritarianism [62:32]

Conclusion

John Bodnar’s Divided by Terror illustrates how American patriotism since 9/11 has been marked not by unity, but by deep and enduring division. The book reveals the struggle between martial, exclusionary nationalism and a more empathetic, self-critical view of nationhood—one that continues today in political rhetoric, public memory, and grassroots activism. Bodnar’s insights bridge past and present, encouraging history to inform our understanding of the evolving stakes of patriotism and democracy in America.