Podcast Summary:

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: John Drabinski, "So Unimaginable a Price: Baldwin and the Black Atlantic" (Northwestern UP, 2025)
Date: February 18, 2026
Host: Sarah Tyson
Guest: John Drabinski

Episode Overview

This episode offers an in-depth conversation between host Sarah Tyson and scholar John Drabinski about his new book, So Unimaginable a Price: Baldwin and the Black Atlantic. Drabinski reinterprets James Baldwin’s nonfiction through a sustained philosophical lens, placing Baldwin’s ideas within the rich context of the mid-20th century Black Atlantic. The discussion ranges from Baldwin’s origin stories and cultural images to comparative readings with Fanon, the role of vernacular culture, and Baldwin’s unique theorization of home and optimism.

Key Points & Discussion Breakdown

1. Drabinski’s Intellectual Background and Journey to Baldwin

(03:09 – 11:58)

• Transition from European/Jewish philosophy to Black Atlantic thought: Drabinski recounts his academic journey, from working on Levinas and post-WWII philosophy, leading to questions about trauma, loss, and representation. A pivotal moment comes during a conversation with Salomon Lerner, who challenges Drabinski to direct his intellectual energies to the Americas, characterized by centuries of trauma and loss.
• Immersive self-education in Black intellectual tradition: After this encounter, Drabinski embarks on a decade-plus, self-directed reading project of Black philosophical traditions, especially in the Francophone Caribbean.
• Personal connection and academic spark with Baldwin: Encouraged by colleague Jeff Ferguson, Drabinski immerses himself in Baldwin’s nonfiction, becoming captivated by his prose, hesitancy, and profound insights beyond the quotable lines. This leads to teaching Baldwin seminars and, eventually, writing the book.
  Memorable quote:
  "All your questions are answered by James Baldwin. You need to read him." (Jeff Ferguson, relayed by Drabinski, 09:57)

2. Reframing Baldwin within the Black Atlantic Context

(11:58 – 16:27)

• Why read Baldwin in the Black Atlantic milieu? Drabinski positions Baldwin among contemporaneous thinkers—Caribbean, African, African American—who were debating language, identity, home, history, and politics during a period of vibrant intellectual exchange.
• Reading Baldwin for his silences: He stresses the value of attending to what Baldwin omits, such as Pan-African, diasporic discourses common at the time. Drabinski’s poststructuralist formation informs this attention to textual absence.
• Novelty of his approach: Most theoretical work on Baldwin, Drabinski notes, rarely situates him outside a U.S.-centric framework.
  Notable quote:
  "The ability to read absences...is as important as reading what's present in their work." (John Drabinski, 15:26)

3. Origin Stories: The Auction Block and the Spirituals

(17:57 – 23:39)

• Baldwin’s unique story of origins: Contrary to Caribbean writers focused on the Middle Passage (“beginning from the abyss”), Baldwin roots African American identity in the auction block—an origin specific to U.S. Black experience, mediated through the spirituals.
• Comparative philosophical framework: Drabinski discusses dialoguing Baldwin with Glissant (Caribbean), Douglass, Du Bois, and Locke, highlighting the importance of the “cry” (painful, creative expression) passed through history.
• Material vs. mythical origins: For Baldwin, the auction block and its echo in spirituals—not a mythic Africa—form the ground for a new, separate peoplehood.
  Notable quote:
  "The weight of that identity…is to create an entirely separate people. That African Americanness, rooted in the cry of the auction block, becomes the foundation of an identity that’s unprecedented..." (John Drabinski, 22:23)

4. Iconic Images and the Dialectics of Identity

(23:39 – 31:28)

• Chapter structure: Drabinski centers the second chapter on three “images”: the African, the white, and the dialectical space between these, which produces “the Negro”—Baldwin’s term for a singular African American identity.
• Spectacle of unvanquished blackness: Baldwin’s reflections on figures like Haile Selassie and Ghana’s independence (notably absent from Baldwin’s writing) serve as imagined correctives to internalized shame, yet Baldwin ultimately doubts their transformative power for African Americans.
• Constructing African Americanness: This new identity arises in the interplay of “spectacular blackness” and “contingent whiteness.” Drabinski references Albert Murray’s idea that “Negro culture is mulatto,” emerging from cultural conflict—not from purity. Memorable moment:
  "It's one of the few times he is actually sympathetic and positive about Richard Wright." (Sarah Tyson, 28:32)

5. Comparing Fanon and Baldwin: Vernacular Culture as Counter-Narrative

(31:28 – 37:47)

• Shared diagnosis, diverging solutions: Both authors analyze the psychic wounding (shame) inflicted by anti-Blackness. Fanon proposes an apocalyptic break with the past (a “new man”), while Baldwin centers the redemptive, creative power of vernacular culture.
• The critique of Fanon on U.S. Black music: Drabinski takes issue with Fanon’s dismissal of blues and jazz as abject, instead championing them—as Baldwin does—as sources of wholeness, dignity, and peoplehood.
• Vernacular culture as the foundation of Black identity: For Baldwin, expressive culture like blues (e.g., Bessie Smith) and jazz is not only resistance, but the seed of collective life and healing. Notable quote:
  "What we need to do is understand [African Americanness] in richer ways. And that's where vernacular culture is so important." (John Drabinski, 35:22)

6. Language, World, and the Meaning of Black English

(37:47 – 42:39)

• Language as existential ground: Baldwin’s theory places Black English at the heart of African American being—rooted in the “cry of the auction block,” informed by spirituals and vernacular creativity.
• Language creates worlds: Speaking and defending Black English is a declaration of an own world and a refusal of alienation. Drabinski connects Baldwin’s insights to Fanon’s ideas on language and belonging.
• Pedagogical implications: Drabinski shares how students resonate deeply with the affirmation of home languages and dialects, recognizing linguistic practices as foundational to belonging and identity. Notable quote:
  "If I don't [speak Black English], it's like I don't belong or I'm out of place. It's like, exactly that. Belonging and being in place, that's what Baldwin's after." (John Drabinski, 41:39)

7. Home as Existential Complexity

(42:39 – 48:47)

• Claiming home in a hostile land: Baldwin asserts a paradoxical claim of home in the U.S.—a nation both purchased by Black ancestors' blood and fundamentally invested in their exclusion.
• Interstitial space: Drabinski interprets Baldwin’s home not as the broad nation, but as an “interstitial space” forged in the margins by relationships among Black people, often apart from white society.
• Vernacular culture and relationships as home: Home emerges in the ordinary, complex, everyday ties among African Americans—an affirmation of life and relation in the face of social and existential adversity. Notable quote:
  "Why would you claim a home in a place that doesn't want you?...How do you think pain and home at the same time?" (John Drabinski, 44:04)

8. Afro-Optimism vs. Afro-Pessimism: Baldwin’s Deeper Alternative

(48:47 – 53:33)

• Not an opposition, but an alternative: Drabinski distinguishes between Afro-pessimism (the idea of social death and inescapable anti-blackness) and what he calls "Afro-optimism," rooted in Baldwin’s defense of interstitial life and vernacular culture.
• The margins as generative: Drawing from his own book At the Margins of Nihilism, Drabinski argues that being always has margins, openings for new forms of life and meaning; vernacular culture enables a Black world beyond the reach of whiteness.
• Optimism as Black relationality: For Baldwin, optimism is possible because of the vitality of Black life among Black people—not in relation to whiteness, but as its own generative site. Notable quote:
  "There's a possibility of Black relationality to Black that is not Black relationality to white... It's a world that has meaning and ought to be thought on its own terms." (John Drabinski, 51:20)

9. Current and Future Projects

(53:33 – 58:00)

• On Syntactical Intelligence: Drabinski is developing a new book on Caribbean critical theory and language, inspired by Kamau Brathwaite.
• Soul Music as Deconstructive Practice: He’s planning a more personal, phenomenological book about the “soul” of soul music, focused on Memphis in the 1970s, breaking away from his usual theoretical form. Memorable moment:
  "I always wanted to write a different kind of book...why not? Tremble as I start to say the number 57 years old...What are you waiting for?" (John Drabinski, 57:13)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "All your questions are answered by James Baldwin. You need to read him."
  — Jeff Ferguson (as recalled by Drabinski), 09:57

• "The ability to read absences...is just as important as reading what’s present in their work."
  — John Drabinski, 15:26

• "The weight of that identity for Baldwin...is to create an entirely separate people. That African Americanness, rooted in the cry of the auction block, becomes the foundation of an identity that’s unprecedented..."
  — John Drabinski, 22:23

• "Negro culture is mulatto."
  — Albert Murray (referenced by Drabinski), 31:23

• "What we need to do is understand it in richer ways. And that's where vernacular culture is so important."
  — John Drabinski, 35:22

• "Belonging and being in place, that's what Baldwin's after."
  — John Drabinski, 41:39

• "Why would you claim a home in a place that doesn't want you?...How do you think pain and home at the same time?"
  — John Drabinski, 44:04

• "There's a possibility of Black relationality to Black that is not Black relationality to white... It's a world that has meaning and ought to be thought on its own terms."
  — John Drabinski, 51:20

• "I always wanted to write a different kind of book...What are you waiting for?"
  — John Drabinski, 57:13

Segment Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|------------------------| | Drabinski’s background and path to Baldwin | 03:09 – 11:58 | | Baldwin in the Black Atlantic context | 11:58 – 16:27 | | Origin stories: The auction block & spirituals | 17:57 – 23:39 | | Images: African, white, and Negro in Baldwin | 23:39 – 31:28 | | Fanon vs. Baldwin and vernacular culture | 31:28 – 37:47 | | Language, world, and Black English | 37:47 – 42:39 | | The existential complexity of home | 42:39 – 48:47 | | Afro-optimism as alternative to Afro-pessimism | 48:47 – 53:33 | | Current/future projects & closing thoughts | 53:33 – 58:17 |

Tone & Language

The episode is scholarly but accessible, blending dense theory with vivid illustrations and personal anecdotes. Drabinski’s language is thoughtful, occasionally self-deprecating, always attentive to nuance and complexity.

Final Thoughts

Drabinski’s So Unimaginable a Price presents Baldwin as a critical theorist who offers deep resources for thinking about race, identity, trauma, and worldmaking—from the vantage of the Black Atlantic. This episode provides both a thorough overview of the book’s structure and an engaging meditation on Baldwin’s enduring theoretical provocations.