Podcast Summary:
New Books Network – John Tolan, "Islam: A New History from Muhammad to the Present" (Princeton UP, 2025)
Release Date: December 15, 2025
Host: [unnamed interviewer, possibly Amadi]
Guest: Dr. John Tolan, Professor Emeritus of History, University of Nantes
Episode Overview
This episode features an in-depth interview with historian John Tolan about his new book, Islam: A New History from Muhammad to the Present. Tolan discusses the book's aims: to provide a narrative of Islamic history drawing on recent scholarship, emphasizing the tradition’s diversity and ongoing transformation. The conversation explores the multiplicity within Islamic history, the interplay with other religious traditions, historical debates over the faith’s definition, and the modern challenges faced by Muslim societies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Personal & Scholarly Trajectory
[03:23]
- Tolan discusses his entry into Islamic studies through medieval interfaith polemics.
- Acknowledges the persistent reliance on pious, conventional narratives in mainstream histories of Islam.
- Emphasizes how new scholarship (e.g., Fred Donner’s "Muhammad and the Believers") urges historians to approach early Islam through fresh lenses, focusing on concepts like “believers” rather than “Muslims.”
Quote:
“Most of the sort of general books on Islam for a wide audience are still based on this sort of traditional pious narrative... there’s been much very interesting work on the beginnings of Islam...” — John Tolan [05:03]
2. Who Gets to Write Islamic History? Objectivity and Positionality
[08:12]
- Tolan reflects on the challenge and responsibility of writing a history of Islam as a non-Muslim and outsider.
- Stresses honesty about his perspective and clarifies that his intention is not to define doctrine but to portray the lived realities and civilizational evolution.
Quote:
“We want to be objective as possible, but we always know... we’re coming from someplace... I want to be quite frank with the reader. I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a theologian, and my book isn’t trying to define... What I’m really interested in is looking at this link between Islamic [history and civilization]..." — John Tolan [08:53]
3. Defining Islam: Unity and Plurality
[11:03]
- The book challenges reductive dichotomies: e.g., whether Islam is a religion of peace or violence, law or mysticism.
- Explains Islam’s internal plurality, using examples like the four legal schools (madhhabs), early Sufism, a spiritual/ascetic versus juridical/lawmaker image of Muhammad.
- Uses historical instances—Baghdad in the 9th century, 16th century Indonesia, 18th century Wahhabi movement— to show ongoing contestation and adaptation.
Quote:
“What I’m trying to do... is show that Islam has always been much more than that. There have always been very different ways and in many cases, conflicting ways of understanding what Islam is.” — John Tolan [15:00]
4. Diversity & Visual Representation: The Cover Image
[16:00]
- The cover features the Sufi mystic Rabi‘a al-‘Adawiyya as imagined in an 18th-century Mughal painting.
- Tolan chose this image for its unexpectedness and its symbolism of Islam’s diversity: a female, Iraqi saint depicted with Indian aesthetics.
- The image highlights the cross-cultural transmission and ongoing relevance of figures like Rabi‘a.
Quote:
“It is a surprising image to represent Islam because we think... of male Arab figures. Here is this Iraqi woman ... portrayed according to the canons of beauty of Mughal India...” — John Tolan [16:00]
5. Methodology: Comparison to Previous Work
[21:53]
- Tolan contrasts this book’s wider, more global, and more synthetic scope to his earlier research, which focused on polemics and antisemitism in medieval Europe.
- His intention: to bring in sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, and Southeast Asia, not just the Arab world.
Quote:
“I wanted to... look beyond the Arab world, and to look at Islam in sub Saharan Africa, in what’s now India and Pakistan, in what’s now Indonesia...” — John Tolan [22:29]
6. Dialogues Across Traditions: The Caliph and the Patriarch
[24:55]
- The Abbasid Caliphate’s famed theological exchanges (e.g., between the Nestorian patriarch Timothy I and Caliph al-Mahdi) reflect collaborative and competitive intellectual currents among Muslims, Christians, and Jews.
- These encounters were often genuine, reflecting deep mutual knowledge.
Quote:
“What’s interesting to me in this particular exchange…is how much the Caliph knew about Christianity and Christian doctrine and conversely, how much the Patriarch knew about Islam and the Quran...” — John Tolan [25:33]
7. Source Base and Research Approach
[28:09]
- Tolan is transparent about relying heavily on the latest secondary scholarship for non-Arab regions or languages.
- His book is based on synthesizing current research from multiple areas.
8. Crusades & Historical Memory
[29:19]
- Discusses the Council of Clermont and Pope Urban II’s sermon launching the First Crusade.
- Notes the lack of a single definitive account and urges careful reading of sources.
9. Complex Realities: Conflict and Coexistence
[31:34]
- Challenges the common binary of crusaders vs. jihadists with examples of mixed Muslim-Christian alliances and diplomatic pragmatism throughout medieval history.
Quote:
“The stereotypical idea of fanatical European crusaders fighting against fanatical Muslim jihadists doesn’t fit at all the historical reality...” — John Tolan [32:32]
10. Major Figures: Ibn Battuta and Muslim Orientalism
[34:09]
- Ibn Battuta exemplifies the cosmopolitan, interconnected, and also hierarchical nature of the early modern Muslim world.
- Travels reflect both fascination with foreign cultures and a sense of Islamic/Arab superiority.
- Tolan references contemporary scholarship’s use of “Muslim Orientalism” to describe Battuta’s attitude—a mix of condescension and curiosity.
Quote:
“As an educated, cultured Arab in the 14th century, going to non-Arab lands—as in the Turkish lands, Persia...he was a rare commodity...he was able, in the same way as a 19th-century Frenchman or Englishman [in the colonies], to go around...” — John Tolan [36:43]
11. Modernity, Nationalism, & Competing Ideologies
[39:13], [40:55]
- The failures of Arab nationalism (“doing little for Palestinians,” serving autocrats).
- The rise of pan-Islamic movements as a reaction to these failures—complicating the interplay of religion, state, and authenticity in modern Muslim societies.
- References figures like Abdelwahab Meddeb as alternative voices.
Quote:
“Much of the popular movement that managed to inspire the Arab Spring...people were then very disappointed in what happened. They ended up having the choice between autocratic Islamist rulers and autocratic military rulers.” — John Tolan [41:18]
12. History of Islam vs. History of the Islamicate
[42:47], [44:07]
- Drawing on Marshall Hodgson, Tolan analyzes whether his book is a history of the religious tradition (belief/doctrine) or the broader “Islamicate” world (institutions, cultures bearing Islamic influence).
- Concludes it’s more the latter, but the boundaries are always blurred.
13. Writing Contemporary History & Future Trends
[45:07]
- Tolan discusses the challenge of narrating contemporary developments, noting ongoing debates (role of women, Sufism, laïcité in France, etc.), and predicts that current scholarly and community discussions will shape the Islam of tomorrow.
Quote:
“It’s very hard to know how things are going to evolve over the next five, ten, or a hundred years. But there are some hopeful signs.” — John Tolan [47:20]
14. Upcoming Work
[48:15]
- Next book: On antisemitism and Islamophobia, their origins, uses, histories, and how these apply to contemporary French and European debates.
Quote:
“I think it can be very useful to have a book that will really look in detail...what do these terms come from...what is the history of these words and...of these prejudices...” — John Tolan [48:38]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Insider/Outsider Tension:
“It’s hard to untangle what’s religious from what’s the civilization. And what I wanted to do was to show how Islam has been lived and understood over centuries by very different people in very different situations with very different needs and desires.” — John Tolan [09:44]
- Plural Muhammad/Plural Islam:
“Some Turkish Sufis explained...the Prophet Muhammad has three different costumes...We, the Sufis, have chosen the third Muhammad...but...they...recognize that these two other Muhammads were legitimate...” — John Tolan [13:30]
- Cover as Provocation:
“I really wanted to surprise people. And indeed when I proposed this...they didn’t want it because this is going to confuse people...but she looks like she could be a member of the Mughal elite.” — John Tolan [16:00]
- Hope for the Future:
“There’s a lot of interesting things going on...interesting work on Islam that’s not only academic in import, but is going to have an impact on how people today see what Islam is.” — John Tolan [45:47]
Timestamps for Important Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:23 | Tolan on entering Islamic studies and using new research in his book | | 08:12 | Discussing positionality: Who can write Islamic history? | | 11:03 | The plurality of Islam—debating definitions and approaches | | 16:00 | The unexpected cover: Rabi‘a al-‘Adawiyya as symbol of diversity | | 24:55 | Christian-Muslim dialogue at the Abbasid court, shared references and debates | | 29:19 | The First Crusade: Unpacking the Council of Clermont and conflicting narratives | | 31:34 | Mixed alliances, coexistence, and historical complexity in Muslim-Christian relations| | 34:09 | Ibn Battuta, Muslim cosmopolitanism, and “Muslim Orientalism” | | 39:13 | Arab nationalism, pan-Islamism, and postcolonial challenges | | 42:47 | History of Islam vs. history of the Islamicate | | 45:07 | Writing about ongoing transformations in the Muslim world | | 48:15 | Forthcoming project: A history of antisemitism and Islamophobia |
Conclusion
John Tolan’s A New History of Islam and this interview encourage readers to appreciate the many forms, experiences, and ongoing debates within the Islamic tradition. Breaking with monolithic or simplistic views, Tolan foregrounds plurality, intercultural contact, and the dynamism of religious identity. The interview closes with optimism about future dialogue and ongoing scholarly contributions, both in the field and in public discourse.