Podcast Summary: Jonathan Sumption, "The Challenges of Democracy: And the Rule of Law"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Charles Coutteo
Guest: Lord Jonathan Sumption
Date: December 26, 2025
Book: The Challenges of Democracy: And the Rule of Law (Profile Books, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode explores Jonathan Sumption's new book, The Challenges of Democracy: And the Rule of Law. In discussion with Dr. Charles Coutteo, Lord Sumption—a former UK Supreme Court justice, historian, and legal scholar—dissects the current pressures facing democracies, the evolving role of the rule of law, and pivotal controversies in constitutional government. The conversation traverses topics such as the fragility of democracy, the legitimacy of judge-made law, crises in party systems, and judicial activism, with special attention to climate change, the decline of US and UK politics, and events in Hong Kong.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Purpose and Structure of the Book

• The book compiles Lord Sumption's lectures, lightly edited for publication.

  “The book essentially reprints, with minor modifications, those lectures.” (02:41, Lord Sumption)

2. Fragility and Modern Challenges to Democracy

• Democracy is historically recent and geographically limited.
• Current decline in public faith is complex and multifactorial:
  • Collapse of traditional party systems
  • Rise of demagoguery
  • Disillusionment post-Brexit

  “Democracy is fragile… It’s vulnerable to changes of sentiment of the kind that we are currently experiencing.” (03:41)

The US as a "Flawed Democracy"

• The Economist Intelligence Unit demotes the US in its Democracy Index.
• Lord Sumption questions whether the US still qualifies as a democracy under current conditions:

  “I rather question whether The Economist would today rank the United States as a democracy at all.” (04:10)

Aristotle and Democratic Vulnerability

• Aristotle’s concern: susceptibility to demagogues promising sweeping change in exchange for power:

  “Democracies were vulnerable to demagogues who offered people the world in return for absolute power.” (04:40)

Climate Change: The Looming Democratic Test

• Climate action requires international coordination, but democratic accountability is nationally rooted.
• Populist temptations and political short-termism inhibit necessary, but unpopular, measures.

  “There will always be people who will be tempted to vote for a party that says it's all fake... reducing consumption... is unlikely to appeal to democratic electorates. Unless a catastrophe is imminent…” (04:59)

3. The Crisis of the Party System

• In the UK and beyond, there’s a collapse of the political center.
• Brexit fractured parties, particularly the Conservatives, splitting both liberal and Euroskeptic factions.
• The electoral “first past the post” system fails to represent the complexity of modern issues.

  “The voters are obliged to decide at election times which party they least wish to support, rather than which party they feel enthusiastic about supporting.” (06:11–08:37)

4. Presidential vs. Parliamentary Systems

• Presidential systems (e.g., US, France) concentrate dangerous powers in one office.
• Parliamentary systems ensure more collective accountability.

  “The President... has absolute control over the executive... the main constraint... is the judiciary, which the current President... has tamed.” (08:45)

5. The "Modern Tragedy" of Hong Kong

• Loss of civil freedoms and the rule of law under increasingly authoritarian Chinese rule.
• The 47 democracy activists prosecuted for exercising legal rights, which undermines basic law and justice.

  “If you believe in democracy in Hong Kong at the moment, you are likely to be prosecuted for a variety of offenses such as sedition… witnessing its degradation... is a very depressing experience.” (10:19)

On the Indefensibility of Recent Court Decisions

• The High Court's treatment of democracy activists is “legally indefensible” because their conduct was protected by the Basic Law:

  “If you have a political right conferred upon you by the Constitution, the suggestion that it’s a criminal offense… is quite absurd.” (11:45)

Why Sumption Resigned from Hong Kong’s High Court

• The legal system became too subordinate to Chinese leadership, especially after the 2020 National Security Law:

  “I considered that the court system was becoming too subordinate to China and why the democracy activists case was the most recent and persuasive evidence of that.” (13:35)

6. The Proper Place of Judge-Made Law

• Judge-made law is vital for technical/legal questions, but courts should not resolve contentious political issues.

  “I do not think that judges should decide controversial political issues which are properly matters for the electorate at large to decide.” (14:32)

7. The Rule of Law: “Thick” vs. “Thin” Definitions

• “Thin” = procedural adherence; “Thick” = substantive rights, notably human rights.
• Lord Sumption sees a middle ground—essential rights vs. merely desirable social goods.

  “A good thing is no doubt desirable, but you can be without it and still have the rule of law.” (15:23)

8. Judicial Precedent and Landmark US Cases

• Brown v. Board of Education vs. Dobbs (overruling Roe v. Wade):
  • Overturning Brown was justified by changed circumstances; overturning Roe was not.

  “[With Roe] you require a very strong case in order to justify departing from the precedent. That case existed in Brown... It did not exist in the case of Roe.” (16:43)

9. On Trump v. United States: Presidential Immunity

• Sumption finds the Supreme Court’s broad immunity for the president “absurd and dangerous”:

  “To immunize the President from criminal liability is completely unjustified in law and extremely dangerous constitutionally.” (20:09)

10. Parliamentary Sovereignty & Constitutional Tradition

• The UK lacks a written constitution owing to continuous, evolutionary history:

  “In Britain, we have never had a revolution... We are not a desert island waiting to be colonized by its lawgiver. We are the as of several centuries of history.” (22:03–24:30)

11. The European Court of Human Rights: Judicial Activism

• Criticizes the Court for overstepping and creating new rights not grounded in treaty text.

  “If you have a court that makes the law up as it goes along, that requirement [of legal certainty] is not satisfied.” (24:36)

12. British Empire: An Assessing View

• Recognizes both benefits and grave wrongs; economic development, rule of law, and communications as positives, but with clear historic failings.

  “The British empire, I think, was on the whole, a benign force. Of course it did some terrible things… Taking the record as a whole, the British Empire... led to the economic development of major parts of the world.” (27:41)

13. Free Speech and John Stuart Mill

• Sumption admires Mill’s foundational ideas, but notes limitations for today’s debates.

  “He formulated rational principles which are the basis of modern liberalism. I don’t have heroes. But I greatly admire the clarity and vision of his work.” (29:43)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Democracy is fragile… It’s vulnerable to changes of sentiment of the kind that we are currently experiencing.” (03:41)
• “There will always be people who will be tempted to vote for a party that says it's all fake... Sooner or later there will be a strong movement among those who take it seriously to impose a solution.” (04:59)
• “All that the 47 democracy activists did was to run a primary for the purpose of selecting a common slate of candidates... All of that was entirely legitimate.” (11:45)
• “To immunize the President from criminal liability is completely unjustified in law and extremely dangerous constitutionally.” (20:09)
• “We are not a desert island waiting to be colonized by its lawgiver. We are the as of several centuries of history.” (24:30)

Key Timestamps

• 02:41 – Why Sumption wrote the book (purpose)
• 03:41 – Fragility of democracy
• 04:59 – Climate change as a challenge to democracy
• 06:11-08:37 – Crisis in party systems (UK, US, France, Brexit)
• 08:45 – Presidential vs. parliamentary systems
• 10:19 – Hong Kong: “a modern tragedy”
• 11:45 – The “legally indefensible” prosecution of democracy activists in Hong Kong
• 13:35 – Rationale for resigning from Hong Kong’s Court of Final Appeal
• 14:32 – Judge-made law and political controversy
• 15:23 – Rule of law (“thick” vs. “thin” definitions)
• 16:43 – On precedent: Dobbs (Roe v. Wade) vs. Brown v. Board
• 20:09 – Sumption on Trump v. United States (presidential immunity)
• 22:01 – Parliamentary sovereignty in UK constitutional history
• 24:36 – Critique of the European Court of Human Rights’ activism
• 27:41 – The complex legacy of the British Empire
• 29:43 – John Stuart Mill and the principle of free speech

Final Thoughts

Sumption’s conversation displays his characteristic blend of historical context, legal reasoning, and skepticism of judicial overreach. He urges respect for constitutional and democratic traditions, warns against unchecked executive power, and advocates for nuanced approaches to urgent contemporary questions like climate change, free speech, and political rights.

“I would hope that they would take away many things from my book, so I decline to choose.” (30:10)