Podcast Summary:
New Books Network | Jonathan White and Lucas Morel, "Measuring the Man: The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln" (Reedy Press, 2025)
Host: Omari Averitt Phillips
Guest: Dr. Jonathan White
Date: September 20, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode explores the new book Measuring the Man: The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln, co-authored by Jonathan White and Lucas Morel. The host and guest examine the evolving relationship between Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln—how it transformed through the Civil War and beyond. Dr. White shares behind-the-scenes research anecdotes, discusses pivotal disagreements and mutual growth between the two historic figures, and highlights newly uncovered Douglass letters that offer fresh perspectives. The conversation also delves into the broader implications for understanding historical change, civic dialogue, and teaching on Lincoln, Douglass, and the Civil War era.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Jonathan White’s Background and Prior Works
[02:07]
- Dr. White teaches American Studies at Christopher Newport University, focusing on Abraham Lincoln, the Civil War, and especially Lincoln’s relationship with African Americans.
- His previous books have examined Black correspondence with Lincoln and Black visitors to the White House, illuminating the fight for citizenship and forgotten stories.
2. Genesis of the Book
[03:18]
- Inspired by Douglass’ presence in his prior works and his teaching, White wanted to compile Douglass’ writings about Lincoln, covering Douglass' initial criticism and eventual friendship with Lincoln.
- Initially conceived as a short collection, the project scaled up after uncovering a trove of unpublished documents, eventually reaching 107,000 words.
- White partnered with Lucas Morel, a prominent Lincoln and Douglass scholar, for both breadth and depth.
3. Teaching Douglass and Student Reactions
[06:11]
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Students are captivated by Douglass’ rhetoric and unexpected viewpoints—especially his reading of the Constitution as anti-slavery.
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White encourages students to engage deeply with authors' original intentions before comparing conflicting interpretations.
- “When I teach any reading, I want students to understand the writer on his or her own terms.” — Jonathan White [07:21]
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Douglass’ vivid descriptions of slavery are powerful educational tools, helping students connect with the continuing relevance of that history.
4. New Research Discoveries: Unearthing Forgotten Letters
[09:25]
- White and Morel originally intended to feature Douglass’s best-known speeches and writings but soon found nine "new" letters in British newspapers, missed in previous scholarship.
- These letters, some written to British abolitionist friends, were authenticated through cross-referencing with recipients’ replies and Library of Congress holdings.
Notable Discovery
[15:40]
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A pivotal letter dated April 20, 1865 (five days after Lincoln’s assassination), where Douglass speculates that Andrew Johnson's presidency might be better for Black Americans due to Johnson’s perceived radicalism—a stance Douglass would soon realize was mistaken.
- “As terrible as it is that Lincoln has been assassinated, it might actually be best for black people, because Douglass believes that Andrew Johnson is going to be a radical...and Douglass looked at Lincoln, and as much as he admired Lincoln, he thought, you know, Lincoln was too kind and too moderate.” — Jonathan White [15:55–17:09]
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These private missives show Douglass’s candor with foreign audiences—he shared thoughts he would not express as openly in public American forums.
5. Key Points of Disagreement and Mutual Growth
[19:36]
- The central divide between Douglass and Lincoln was their view of the Constitution:
- Douglass: The Constitution is inherently anti-slavery.
- Lincoln: The Constitution is a compromise with both pro- and anti-slavery elements.
- Early in Lincoln’s presidency, Douglass considered him “abolitionism’s worst enemy” for promising enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act.
- Over time, Douglass recognized Lincoln’s political constraints but still pressed hard for more rapid action on emancipation and for Black soldiers’ rights.
Memorable Encounter
[21:50]
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Douglass' first unannounced visit to the White House was a great personal risk but resulted in a warm, respectful meeting:
- “He goes to introduce himself in Lincoln's office. And Lincoln says, ‘Oh, I know who you are.’ And Lincoln takes him by the hand and they sit down and they discuss these issues…” — Jonathan White [22:40]
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Douglass left with mixed feelings, understanding both limitations of Lincoln’s position and the significance of being heard as an equal.
Notable Letter
[25:40]
- On the 1864 election, Douglass pragmatically supports Lincoln against McClellan despite preferring a more radical alternative:
- “I am nowadays taking a more practical view of things than formerly, and hence I shall be found doing all I can to promote the election of Mr. Lincoln or the defeat of McClellan.” — Frederick Douglass (quoted by Jonathan White) [26:30]
6. Intended Audience & Teaching Value
[27:06]
- The book is aimed at both general readers and students; it’s designed as a resource for understanding the nuances and evolution in both Douglass's and Lincoln’s positions over time.
- Title "Measuring the Man" reflects the recurring theme of Douglass continually reassessing Lincoln—not simplistic praise or condemnation, but a dynamic evaluation.
7. Lessons for Today: Civic Dialogue and Historical Change
[29:08]
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The dialogue between Douglass and Lincoln stands as a model for civil disagreement and growth through engagement.
- “Douglass had very fervent beliefs...and he was willing to engage with Lincoln, someone with whom he disagreed pretty vehemently...and for his part, Lincoln was willing to listen. Like that is an extraordinary thing.” — Jonathan White [29:42]
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Lincoln’s willingness to evolve on Black suffrage, influenced by appeals from Black leaders—including Douglass—highlights the capacity for change in leadership and society.
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Douglass appreciated Lincoln’s “wedge” approach to incremental reform, seeing it as a pragmatic path to fuller equality:
- “It doesn't bother me that Lincoln took this approach. In fact, Douglass came to appreciate it...once you get that wedge in, Douglass says it's only a matter of time until you have universal black manhood suffrage.” — Jonathan White [33:08]
Memorable Quotes & Moments
- “What Douglass understood was, there are a heck of a lot of racist white northern voters who are never going to support black suffrage. But if you make the case, wait a second: These guys are serving on the battlefield...if anyone deserves the right to vote, it’s them.” — Jonathan White [33:27]
- “We titled the book Measuring the Man, and that was a phrase Douglass used a lot. He said, throughout the war, Black men and women measured Lincoln—we took the measure of him.” — Jonathan White [27:12]
- “Douglass says, the south has no reason to secede...because Lincoln's going to enforce your rights.” — Jonathan White [21:09]
Important Timestamps
| Time | Segment | Content | |------------|-----------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:07 | Dr. White’s background | Academic and prior works, focus on Lincoln studies | | 03:18 | Origin of the book | From teaching Douglass to uncovering new documents | | 06:11 | Teaching Douglass | Students' reactions, Douglass on the Constitution | | 09:25 | Research discoveries | New letters found, research process detailed | | 13:49 | Transformational documents | Letters revealing Douglass' candid views & strategies | | 15:40 | April 1865 letter discovery | Douglass’ view on Lincoln’s assassination & Andrew Johnson| | 19:36 | Key disagreements: Constitution, policies | Douglass vs. Lincoln on slavery, Fugitive Slave Act | | 21:50 | White House visits | Douglass and Lincoln engage in person | | 25:40 | Practical politics letter | Douglass’ support for Lincoln over McClellan | | 27:06 | Intended audience, teaching applications | Title significance, use in education | | 29:08 | Broader lessons on dialogue and change | Civic disagreement, evolving beliefs | | 34:14 | Upcoming projects | Dr. White’s forthcoming research and books |
Final Thoughts
Dr. Jonathan White’s appearance on New Books Network offers a fascinating look at the evolving interplay between two pivotal historical figures, spotlighting previously unseen documents that complicate and enrich our understanding of the Civil War era. The research not only sheds light on Douglass and Lincoln but also yields lessons for present-day civic engagement: ideals and policies evolve through candid, constructive dialogue—even between the most fervent adversaries.
For educators and students, “Measuring the Man” promises to be a valuable resource, combining rigorous research with compelling narrative to reframe how Douglass, Lincoln, and their relationship are viewed across generations.