Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network — New Books in Education
Host: Joan Sotomayor
Guest: Professor Jose Eos Trinidad
Book: Subtle Webs: How Local Organizations Shape US Education (Oxford UP, 2025)
Date: January 15, 2026

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Professor Jose Eos Trinidad about his new book, Subtle Webs: How Local Organizations Shape US Education. The discussion centers on how organizations—ranging from researchers to nonprofits and philanthropies—outside the formal boundaries of schools have shaped the landscape of education policy and practice, particularly in urban districts like Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City. The episode explores new frameworks for understanding educational change, focusing on the case of early warning indicators (EWIs) for high school dropouts, the subtle influence of outside organizations, and the practical as well as theoretical implications of such "subtle webs."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Guest Background and Research Trajectory (02:23–03:37)

• Trinidad reflects on his academic journey, from completing a joint PhD at the University of Chicago (during the pandemic) to becoming an assistant professor at UC Berkeley.
• Teaches organizational theory, education policy, and causal inference, aligning with his dual focus: how organizations outside and inside schools influence education.

2. Motivation for the Book (03:45–06:02)

• Motivated by a theoretical curiosity about the often-overlooked impact of external organizations on schools.
• The pandemic limited in-school research access, pushing Trinidad to engage with research organizations and philanthropies working on dropout prevention via early warning indicators.
• Quote:
  “We don’t often have a good understanding of all of these organizations outside schools that affect what happens within them.” — Trinidad (04:28)

3. Dropout Rates & Early Warning Indicators (EWIs): Problem & Tools (06:02–11:44)

• In the early 2000s, dropout rates were alarmingly high: e.g., Chicago and Philly's graduation rates hovered just above 50%.
• By 2024, significant improvements: Chicago reached 86%, Philadelphia 84%. EWIs—using attendance, behavior, and course performance—were central in identifying and supporting at-risk students.
• EWIs act as "dashboards" that flag at-risk students for timely intervention when “teachers might only see part of the student during the day.”
• Quote:
  “These early warning indicators…are dashboards with students’ names and data flags that identify which students are in the red, which…in the yellow, and which…in the green.” — Trinidad (09:52)

4. Research Methods: A Multi-Source, Historical Approach (12:15–13:49)

• The book compiles a 25-year history through interviews (nearly 100 individuals in three cities) and over 3,000 pages of documents.
• Merges oral histories and archival analysis to trace the evolution and hidden actors behind EWIs.

5. How EWIs Are Used in Practice (13:49–22:08)

Practical Adaptations of EWIs:

• Accountability Metric: EWIs integrated into yearly school accountability measures, with fears that schools would game the system. Instead, found that they prevented unscrupulous failing, prompting “all possibilities” to support kids.
  • Quote:
    “It really helped…prevent teachers from unscrupulously failing [students]...It led teachers to do all sorts of interventions.” — Trinidad (16:31)
• Just-in-Time Data System: Tools like "Freshman Watch List" enabled teachers to proactively identify and support struggling students based on real-time data.
• Schoolwide Interventions: In high-need schools, EWIs inspired systemic solutions—e.g., discovering that PE under-attendance stemmed from students’ lack of clean clothes, not disinterest.

6. Role and Influence of Out-of-School Organizations (22:08–28:36)

• Out-of-school actors: “civic organizations, research, school support, and philanthropic organizations.”
• Historical context: Post-1987, with Chicago labeled the “worst school district,” these organizations rallied around pride of place and began forming research-practice partnerships and intermediary groups.
• Philadelphia and Chicago’s approaches were emergent and experimental; New York, building on Chicago’s model, was more strategic and intentional.
• Quote:
  “What I show is that there are certain epicenters for change...because they had these university partners, researchers, and large student populations.” — Trinidad (24:50)

Risks and Benefits:

• Benefits: Expertise, resources, innovation, stability.
• Risks: Potential inequities between districts with/without such organizations; possibility of destabilizing public systems.
• Quote:
  “On one hand you have innovation…on the other hand, that can destabilize how public education is run.” — Trinidad (29:43)

7. Theoretical Contributions: Institutional Logics and Subtle Webs (31:13–40:32)

Institutional Logics:

• How problems (like dropout) are framed shapes the solutions possible—e.g., is dropout a bureaucratic issue or a community issue?
• Outside groups shift default assumptions, opening up new pathways for action.
• Quote:
  “Researchers were able to say, ‘Let’s change the way we frame it...There are signals as early as ninth grade and we can do something about that.’” — Trinidad (33:44)

Network Structures (“Subtle Webs”):

• Two main templates:
  • Hub-and-Spoke (Orb Web): Central actors distribute knowledge/resources (e.g., technology tools, data).
  • Tangled Web: Multiple organizations/individuals crisscross and embed resources within and between schools.
• Subtlety: Teachers and staff often aren’t fully aware of external influence—it’s gradual, “hidden actors” effecting change.
• Quote:
  “They’re able to support what happens in schools…while keeping a low profile…It’s a more gradual sense of change.” — Trinidad (38:41)

8. Influence Through Organizational Routines (40:32–43:43)

• Out-of-school organizations shape internal school routines: e.g., initiating grade-level meetings to discuss at-risk students—contrary to prior subject-focused collaboration.
• “Change actions to change beliefs”—rather than seeking buy-in first, create new habits and let positive results sway attitudes.
• Quote:
  “I have to work on teachers’ actions to change their beliefs.” — School support director, quoted by Trinidad (41:01)

9. Local Innovations, National Impact (43:43–47:01)

• In decentralized US education, change rarely flows purely top-down or bottom-up; it emerges “outside in.”
• Local proof-of-concept districts (e.g., Chicago, Philadelphia, New York) become national models, influencing federal policy through networks and partnerships.
• Philanthropic and federal actors (e.g., Gates Foundation, Institute for Educational Sciences) seed, fund, and connect local experiments.
• Quote:
  “In a decentralized system like US public education, things change less through top-down policy mandates or bottom-up teacher social movements, but more outside in.” — Trinidad (44:06)

10. Lessons for Educators, Policymakers, and Researchers (47:01–50:05)

• Expand perspectives on educational change: consider the “outside-in” dimension.
• Researchers should give greater analytical attention to these “invisible infrastructures.”
• Policymakers and educators must weigh the opportunities and risks of third-party involvement: partner, don’t supplant; innovate without fostering inequity.
• Quote:
  “It’s important…that these organizations are partners rather than challengers to public institutions…and provide a space for innovation without leading to inequities.” — Trinidad (49:23)

11. Future Research (50:05–51:37)

• Trinidad’s next project: Quantitative analysis using IRS nonprofit data to study the effects of nonprofit density/type on student test outcomes, geocoded at the district level.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We don’t often have a good understanding of all of these organizations outside schools that affect what happens within them.”
  — Jose Eos Trinidad (04:28)
• “These early warning indicators…are dashboards with students’ names and data flags that identify which students are in the red, which…in the yellow, and which…in the green.”
  — Trinidad (09:52)
• “It really helped…prevent teachers from unscrupulously failing [students]...It led teachers to do all sorts of interventions.”
  — Trinidad (16:31)
• “On one hand you have innovation…on the other hand, that can destabilize how public education is run.”
  — Trinidad (29:43)
• “Researchers were able to say, ‘Let’s change the way we frame it...There are signals as early as ninth grade and we can do something about that.’”
  — Trinidad (33:44)
• “They’re able to support what happens in schools…while keeping a low profile…It’s a more gradual sense of change.”
  — Trinidad (38:41)
• “I have to work on teachers’ actions to change their beliefs.”
  — School support director, quoted by Trinidad (41:01)
• “In a decentralized system like US public education, things change less through top-down policy mandates or bottom-up teacher social movements, but more outside in.”
  — Trinidad (44:06)
• “It’s important…that these organizations are partners rather than challengers to public institutions…and provide a space for innovation without leading to inequities.”
  — Trinidad (49:23)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Academic & Research Background: 02:23–03:37
• Motivation for the Book: 03:45–06:02
• Dropout Rates & Early Warning Indicators: 06:02–11:44
• Research Methods: 12:15–13:49
• EWIs in Practice: 13:49–22:08
• Outside Organizations’ Role: 22:08–28:36
• Risks and Benefits of Outside Influence: 28:36–31:13
• Theories: Institutional Logics & Subtle Webs: 31:13–40:32
• Influence on Organizational Routines: 40:32–43:43
• Local to National Dynamics: 43:43–47:01
• Lessons for Stakeholders: 47:01–50:05
• Future Research: 50:05–51:37

Conclusion

This episode provides a thorough overview of how external organizations create “subtle webs” that profoundly influence US education, with both promising advances and potential pitfalls. Trinidad calls for a new way of theorizing and observing change in decentralized systems, urging all stakeholders to pay closer attention to—and thoughtfully engage with—these often invisible actors.