Podcast Summary

New Books Network

Episode: Julie Dobrow, "Love and Loss After Wounded Knee: A Biography of an Extraordinary Interracial Marriage" (NYU Press, 2025)

Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Julie Dobrow
Date: November 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores Julie Dobrow’s new book, Love and Loss After Wounded Knee, a dual biography of Elaine Goodale Eastman and Charles Eastman — a white woman and a Native man whose extraordinary marriage bridged profound social divides in the late 19th and early 20th century. Dobrow, in conversation with host Dr. Miranda Melcher, discusses the Eastmans' individual backgrounds, the societal context of their union, the international attention their marriage generated, the personal and societal pressures they faced, and their eventual separation. The episode reveals how the Eastmans’ intersecting lives illuminate not only American interracial marriage, but also the complicated history of U.S.-Native American relations, period media portrayal, and personal ambition amid social turmoil.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Research Journey

• Julie Dobrow’s Introduction & Motivation
  • Dobrow recounts discovering the Eastmans’ story as a college student working at the Sophia Smith Women’s History Archive, which inspired her senior thesis and, decades later, her book.
  • She was drawn by the enduring fascination of the couple’s lives and their relative historical obscurity, despite significant fame in their own era (02:49–05:01).
  • Quote:

    “I just found this story so compelling that I decided to write my senior thesis about it. But even then I felt like I wasn’t really done with the Eastmans. Not yet.” – Julie Dobrow (03:47)

2. Elaine Goodale’s Early Life and Path to South Dakota

• From Berkshires Prodigy to Indian Education Advocate
  • Born in 1863 in rural Massachusetts, Elaine was a precocious poet with early national acclaim (05:28–06:29).
  • Career limitations for women led her to teaching, and eventually to the Hampton Institute — a school for Black and Native American children in Virginia (06:30–07:10).
  • Elaine’s exposure to Native American students spurred her to visit the Dakota Territory, where she taught and became an influential advocate for reforming Indian education (07:33–08:59).
  • She rose to be the first supervisor of Indian education in the Dakotas, promoting progressive ideas like community-based (day school) and bilingual education (09:48–11:22).
  • Quote:

    “She thought it [assimilation] would happen more impactfully if students were actually taught in their own communities, surrounded by their families.” – Julie Dobrow (10:38)

3. Charles Eastman's Contrasting Upbringing

• Names, Identity, and Cross-Cultural Life
  • Born Hakada (“the pitiful last”) in 1858, Charles experienced loss early and spent formative years in a Dakota community, then in exile in Canada after the U.S.-Dakota War of 1862 (12:14–13:22).
  • He adopted new names at transitional points: Ohiyesa (“the winner”) after demonstrating athletic prowess, and Charles Alexander Eastman upon adopting Christianity and Western education (13:26–14:58).
  • Charles was the only Native student in his class at Dartmouth, then at Boston University Medical School, seeking to give back to his people as a doctor (16:30–17:38).
  • Quote:

    “His background could not have been more different than Elaine’s.” – Julie Dobrow (15:58)

4. The Historic Convergence: Pine Ridge, 1890

• Societal and Political Upheaval

  • Late 1890 marked heightened violence, government oppression, poverty, and tension in the Dakotas (18:24–19:34).
  • Elaine and Charles both converged at Pine Ridge just before the Wounded Knee massacre, working in key roles (Elaine in education, Charles as agency physician).

• Their Meeting and Swift Engagement

  • They met at a tea party, connecting deeply over shared ideals and commitment to serving Native people (20:40–21:48).
  • Quote:

    “Something magical happened. Elaine and Charles saw something in each other that they recognize.” – Julie Dobrow (20:45)
    “When only a few weeks after our meeting, I promised to marry Dr. Eastman, it was with a thrilling sense of twofold consecration.” – Elaine Goodale (21:24)

5. Public Reaction and Media Sensationalism

• National and International Coverage
  • Their interracial marriage made national news; over 200 newspapers reported on their engagement and wedding, using often racialized, sensationalist headlines (25:08–27:50).
    • “Poetess Marries Big Injun”
    • “Fair Bride of an Indian. Elaine Goodale Weds the Red Man of Her Choice”
  • Press coverage emphasized contrasts between their backgrounds, commodified Charles’s “exoticism,” and misrepresented details to suit the narrative of Native assimilation.
  • Their children were similarly subjected to public gaze and stereotyping (28:28–29:12).
  • Quote:

    “He is of medium height with all the peculiarities of his people in his features. His eyes are small and glittering…” (27:31, paraphrasing period coverage)

6. Internal and External Pressures on Their Marriage

• Media, Money, Gender, and Opportunity

  • The Eastmans faced multiple, overlapping stressors: racial scrutiny, financial instability (Charles had many jobs, often away from home), and shifting gender roles (Elaine sidelining her career for domestic and editorial responsibilities) (28:28–33:44).
  • While publicity advanced Charles’s profile as a writer and activist, Elaine’s literary ambitions were largely stifled (33:00–33:44).
  • Quote:

    “[Elaine] would later, somewhat disparagingly put it, tread the path so well worn by so many women of needing to stay home and care for and nurture their children.” – Julie Dobrow (32:54)

• Elaine’s Continued, Though Diminished, Advocacy

  • Elaine still published articles on Native education but mostly in the background of family life (33:09–33:44).

7. Separation and Aftermath

• The Impact of Personal Tragedy

  • The couple’s efforts to run a summer camp (Camp Oahe) for financial support ended in heartbreak when their daughter Irene, a promising singer, died suddenly of influenza in 1918 (33:57–38:14).
  • Their relationship, already strained, unraveled further after her death. They separated in 1921 but never officially divorced (38:48–39:09).

• Life After the Split

  • Charles moved back to the Midwest, struggled to publish again, and drifted from place to place (38:48–40:08).
  • Elaine reclaimed her writing career to support herself, tried new genres, and corresponded regularly with her sister Rose, leaving behind a treasure trove of candid letters that aided Dobrow’s research (40:08–42:46).
  • Quote:

    “They really contained a lot of unfiltered thoughts about Charles, about the marriage, about the children, about Elaine’s own disappointments in her life. And so they were fascinating, if somewhat poignant, coda to this life.” – Julie Dobrow (42:22)

Notable Quotes/Memorable Moments

• Julie Dobrow on fate and biography:

  “I kept finding myself drawn back to Elaine and Charles Eastman. They were quite well known in their own time, but today, not so much. And yet I felt that they should be.” (04:20)

• On the impact of fame:

  “Their engagement and then subsequently their wedding was covered in more than 200 newspapers coast to coast in the United States and even in many newspapers abroad.” (25:55)

• On Elaine’s overlooked contributions:

  “…she was also caring for and nurturing Charles’s literary career and putting her own aside for quite a while. So I think that, too, was a stressor in their marriage.” (32:48)

• On the aftermath and revealing archives:

  “…one day Rose’s family would turn over the letters that Elaine had written. And these were a gold mine for a biographer because they really contained a lot of unfiltered thoughts…” (41:59)

Key Timestamps

• [02:49] – Julie Dobrow recounts discovering the Eastmans’ archives and her early fascination
• [05:28] – Elaine Goodale’s prodigious childhood and path to teaching Native students
• [09:48] – Elaine’s ideas on progressive education for Native children
• [12:14] – Charles Eastman’s early years and transformation through multiple identities/names
• [16:30] – Charles’s education and decision to become a physician
• [18:24] – The tense social/political atmosphere at Pine Ridge, 1890
• [20:40] – Elaine and Charles meet and fall in love
• [25:08] – Press coverage and public reaction to their engagement and wedding
• [28:28] – The effect of media scrutiny and recurring pressures on their relationship
• [33:57] – The death of their daughter and the marriage’s dissolution
• [38:48] – Post-separation lives of Elaine and Charles
• [41:59] – Discovery of Elaine’s letters and their value to Dobrow as a biographer
• [43:11] – Dobrow shares next project on “The Old Manse” in Concord, MA

Conclusion

Julie Dobrow’s Love and Loss After Wounded Knee uncovers the rich, nuanced, and often tragic story of Charles and Elaine Eastman—a couple whose lives, ambitions, and relationship existed at the crossroads of some of America’s thorniest debates around race, identity, gender, and historical memory. The podcast episode provides a deep dive into their dramatic lives, the forces that shaped (and sometimes broke) them, and the enduring relevance of their story for understanding American history.