Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Host: Amal Hashim
Guest: Dr. Jürgen Schaflechner (Free University of Berlin)
Book Discussed: Hinglaj Devi: Identity, Change, and Solidification at a Hindu Temple in Pakistan (Oxford UP, 2018)
Date: October 3, 2025

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode features a conversation with Dr. Jürgen Schaflechner about his acclaimed ethnography of the Hinglaj Devi shrine in Balochistan, Pakistan. The discussion covers the book’s origin and publication journey, the historical and contemporary significance of the shrine, the dynamics of religious identity formation among Pakistani Hindus, the role of social media, the “solidification” of ritual and narrative traditions, and broader issues of minority representation and agency in South Asia.

Key Discussion Points

1. Publication History and Challenges

• The book’s staggered publication across the US, India, and much later Pakistan highlights limited scholarly and popular interest in Hindu minority studies within Pakistan.
• Dr. Schaflechner notes:

  “I myself needed to come then to the new director and sit in his office and explain... the importance of this book... which I think also speaks a little bit about... how much interest or how little interest actually is there, I think, in Pakistan.” (02:06)

2. The Hinglaj Devi Shrine: A Unifying Symbol

• Hinglaj, a prominent Hindu pilgrimage site in Balochistan, has rapidly become a unifying symbol for diverse Hindu communities in Pakistan, ranging from lower castes to business elites.
• The shrine’s ancient roots and robust Sanskrit textual references set it apart and strengthen its legitimacy across various groups.

3. Plural Religious Traditions and Their Erosion

• Sindh’s shared shrine traditions—once hubs of Hindu-Muslim coexistence—are under threat globally from processes of religious boundary “solidification,” leading to mutual exclusion at sacred sites.
• “Ossification, solidification of religious boundaries... is also generally a more global phenomenon, that these kinds of shared traditions increasingly disappear.” (04:47)

4. Origins and Fieldwork

• The Hinglaj project began as Dr. Schaflechner’s PhD thesis, sparked by his advisor William Sax’s interest and the dearth of academic studies on Pakistani Hindus.

5. Shifting Academic and Social Interest

• Since about 2015, there’s been a noticeable increase in research and public attention to Pakistan’s Hindu minority, partly due to global geopolitical factors, international aid contingencies, and the spread of social media.
• He explains the effect of the Kerry-Lugar bill, which tied US aid to the improved treatment of minorities.

  “Many studies on religious minorities very often come together with a certain kind of geopolitical interest.” (08:31)

6. Social Media and Representation

• Social media has allowed religious minorities in Pakistan new avenues for self-representation. However, these new frames come with their own constraints and patterns.
• The host asks about the impact:

  “How do you think these representations... have these representations changed in literature or even in the news?” (13:29)

• Dr. Schaflechner responds by critically interrogating whether greater visibility equates to ‘emancipation,’ urging nuance about how minorities are “allowed to appear” in media frames.

7. Forced Conversion Cases & Female Agency

• Forced conversion is a flashpoint for the Pakistani Hindu community, generating both international awareness and internal debate about gender, agency, and representation.
• Discussion highlights the complexity:

  “Many cases that are internationally sold as forced conversions are actually cases of female agency... minority community would very often frame these cases as forced conversions, right. As a way to cover over the elopement of one of their daughters and thus save face. Right?” (14:19)

8. The Paradox of the Female Deity & Gendered Realities

• The worship of female deities like Hinglaj Devi does not necessarily translate into greater social agency or improved status for Hindu women.
• Dr. Schaflechner:

  “There's no necessary link between the tradition of worshiping a female deity... and... a more equal treatment between men and women.” (21:18)

9. Muslim-Hindu Shared Heritage and Its Decline

• The region’s sacred sites often shifted religious affiliations over centuries; Hinglaj is unique for having shifted from a Muslim-associated site to a solidified Hindu pilgrimage center.
• Example: The physical transformation of the shrine from a grave-like structure to a more “Brahmanic” temple, and the erasure of parallel Muslim narratives.

10. Solidification: Ritual, Narrative, and Authority

• “Solidification” describes how disparate narratives, rituals, and group practices around the shrine have increasingly been unified (“ossified”) under a single authoritative interpretation.
• This process has been catalyzed by better accessibility (e.g., road building), the rise of the Hinglaj Seva Mandali (temple committee), and later, by social media.
• Dr. Schaflechner:

  “The solidifying of one narrative out of this many, many, many narratives... because people could not accept this plurality of interpretations. And were always searching for the real, the proper right, the real thing.” (32:51)

11. Social Media and Hindutva Influence

• Social media accelerates solidification and, particularly, the “Hinduization” of the tradition—often echoing narratives from Hindutva and the BJP government across the border.
• “You cannot overlook... the influence of Hindutva, the Modi government, you know... that then very often is exacted... by Hindus in Pakistan and worldwide.” (39:41)

12. The Diminishing of Vernacular Traditions

• Local, community-specific practices (such as offering coconuts in a certain way) are being overwritten as “authoritative” religious scripts take hold—often informed by social hierarchies, external influences (i.e., ISKCON), and economic factors.
• Dr. Schaflechner uses the example of the coconut offering, transformed into a closed economic loop.

13. Reinterpretation of the 'Real' Tradition

• “What is the real tradition?” becomes an urgent and contested question as older practices are overwritten, and languages shift (e.g., from Urdu translations of the Bhagavad Gita to a preference for Sanskritized Hindi).

14. Borders, Partition, and Accessibility

• Post-Partition, the site is easier to access for Pakistani Hindus, but much harder, even impossible, for many Indian devotees. The result is a new kind of exclusivity and a shift in the experience and meaning of the pilgrimage.
• Story:

  “The Rakshas that would have haunted you in the desert night... is now transformed. And the Rakshas... sit in the visa office and refuse to give you the stamp.” (60:24)

15. Disappearance of Shared Muslim-Hindu Practices

• The local Muslim clan (Sigris), once ritual experts at the shrine, are now only present as workers, and their stories and interpretations are vanishing.

16. Anthropological Method and Self-Reflexivity

• Dr. Schaflechner describes the “hit a wall” moments of ethnographic research, the navigation of vast oral and textual traditions, and the inevitable necessity to make choices about sources, scope, and approach.
• He notes the blending of local oral stories, printed scripture, and external influences, sometimes humorously recounting a pilgrim privileging printed scripture over his own oral tradition after reading it.

17. Future Work: Minorities and Solidification in Post-Social Media Pakistan

• Dr. Schaflechner’s upcoming book (What Can a Minority Body Do?) expands to other minority groups and examines new forms of religious becoming and activism, especially as social media shapes these processes.
• “One chapter deals with what I call YouTube Judaism... communities that believe they are a part of the so-called lost Jewish tribes... suddenly awakening to their real Jewish roots all over the globe.” (82:13)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On publication challenges:
  “...the story of the book also, I think reflects... this general interest, or rather lack of interest into the Pakistani Hindu community thus far...” (02:06)
• On plural traditions eroding:
  “These places in itself are quite curious... but again, you know, what we find is we find ossification, solidification of religious boundaries.” (04:47)
• On forced conversions and media framing:
  “Religious minorities are more visible, but they are more visible under certain frames that they are allowed to appear.” (17:15)
• On the paradox of female deities:
  “...there's no necessary link between the tradition of worshiping a female deity... and so to say a more equal treatment between men and women.” (21:18)
• On vanishing vernacularities:
  “Even though this would be legit... it would be in this moment, then cleared up, so to say, it would be a pedagogical moment and a solidifying moment...” (46:36)
• On research as iterative process:
  “Every process is, you have an idea, you're super excited... you panic, you have no idea how to organize it, you run into a wall, right? And then, and then somehow, you find an in...” (69:10)
• On the evolution of the Hinglaj pilgrimage:
  “We live in a world where everything changes from. From day to day. But what we really love is investing into things that are presumably quite old because they give us comfort.” (56:18)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:06–04:30| Publishing challenges and Indo-Pak interest | | 05:46–08:10| Origins of the Hinglaj study, the mystical aura, and its significance | | 08:31–13:29| Social change, US aid, rise in minority studies, and social media’s impact | | 14:19–20:01| Forced conversions, female agency, and media representation | | 21:18–25:59| Paradox of goddess veneration and gender roles | | 26:34–32:36| Muslim-Hindu shared traditions, shifting interpretations at Hinglaj | | 32:51–39:41| Solidification process: Ritual, narrative, and the rise of authoritative tradition | | 39:41–45:42| Role of social media, Hindutva, and the spread of right-wing narratives | | 46:36–55:49| Disappearance of vernacular traditions, ISKCON influences, and economic dynamics | | 59:40–64:45| The effect of borders and partition on access, story of the “Rakshas” at the visa office | | 64:45–68:15| Disappearance of Sigris, old Muslim-Hindu practices | | 68:15–77:09| Research methods: navigating oral and textual sources, “hitting the wall,” ethnographic advice| | 77:50–85:08| New research: “What Can a Minority Body Do?”, YouTube Judaism, post-Social Media solidification| | 85:08–end | Closing remarks and future directions |

Flow & Tone

The conversation is deeply thoughtful, frequently nuanced, and peppered with anthropological insights and personal anecdotes. Dr. Schaflechner is reflexive, tentative when necessary, and unafraid to probe uncomfortable questions of agency, tradition, and representation. He frames the transformation of the Hinglaj site as emblematic of broader processes affecting minorities and sacred traditions across Pakistan and South Asia.

For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode provides a rich, nuanced exploration of how Hindu traditions and identities persist, change, and sometimes ossify in the context of contemporary Pakistan. It’s essential listening for those interested in religion, South Asian studies, postcolonial identity, anthropology, and the lived realities of minorities. Dr. Schaflechner's research is both scholarly and engaging, blending theoretical rigor with on-the-ground observation and storytelling.

For early-career scholars, the episode also offers candid, practical wisdom about the research process, ethnographic fieldwork, and navigating vast and amorphous traditions.

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