C (2:45)

Welcome to the new books network.

E (2:56)

Hello, my name is Matthew o', Connell, and this is the Imperfect Buddha Podcast on the New Books Network. The place for exploring the meeting point between philosophy, Buddhism, and contemporary practice life. Sponsored by o' Connell Coaching. Yes, that's me. A great way to explore the themes that come up in these conversations. Visit Imperfect Buddha.com for more information. Hello, and welcome back to the Imperfect Buddha Podcast. It's been a little while since our last episode. Thank you for your patience. Life has a habit of getting in the way of things like podcasting, but we're doing our best, and here we are, and today we're talking to Mark Shinji Blacknell, and he's written a book. Well, there's certainly a book that's there, and it's called Just Stare at the Damn Wall, exclamation mark, which is kind of a provocative title in a way, even though it seems quite innocent. So, Mark, maybe we can begin with that. The. Just the stair and the dam and the exclamation mark. Maybe you can speak to each of those items in the title of your book.

C (4:16)

You know, practice is a living thing, and as we change, it changes. So I had an interesting conversation with a literary agent, and she said a lot of things. It was pretty hard hitting. She basically said, you're telling people you're not a teacher. You're telling people that spirituality is dangerous, and you're telling them basically to put your book down and stare at the damn wall. She said, how am I going to sell that? Well, in my mind, I was like, well, my intentions are not to sell anything. So that I. I laughed. I thought it was brilliant what she was saying. I mean, she really laid into me for about 10 minutes. I didn't argue or try to give her my position because I realized, you know, she's an agent. She has her niche, I have mine. But I did take her advice and take the damn out.

E (5:23)

Oh, okay.

C (5:26)

So I did take it out just because what she said made absolute sense. It's not really necessary, and it doesn't add anything to it. So I did listen to her in that aspect But I didn't listen to anything else. So I don't have an agent.

E (5:47)

Whoops.

C (5:50)

And we'll see if I have one in the future. But as of now, I don't. So the book is done without the dam. Yes. And I did include the conversation with the agent in the introduction to the book. So because she was essentially what she was saying, she nailed my intent. My intent is not to sell anything. My intent is not to preach anything. And my intent is just to get folks to stare at the wall and let that do the talking for itself. That's kind of the whole message in the book. Put this down and meditate. Well, I'll keep talking, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then every now and again I say, just put this book down. You'd be so much better off if you just teach yourself, I guess, you

E (6:46)

know, without being facetious. That does point at the issue, doesn't it? The paradox of, well, you know, do something, but also the need for words to emerge and folks like you or I or anyone else to kind of produce something in the world. There is a compatibility issue, maybe, but there it is. I guess we know that communication is part and parcel of the human condition. So your book isn't just instructing people to put the book down and perhaps stop listening to these podcasts and go and find a wall somewhere, right? There is a need to kind of talk about and talk through and find some kind of interpretation of what practice might look like. So your book, I guess, in a way, is not just a provocation, it's not just an invitation. That dam, although you've taken it out, does kind of imply a certain kind of directness, which is clear in the style of your communication throughout. So perhaps we can talk about that for a moment. This Zen as a tradition also has this kind of interesting mythology, right? It's the simple tradition. It's a non dual tradition. Its meditation practices are quite bare and sometimes even barren, but it has this huge amount of discourse, which is the accumulation of I don't know how many books, both in ancient times and modern times. So how do you square that, do you think? How do you square the need for discourse and this, the simplicity of practice?

C (8:20)

Sure, I think you're right. You got a really good point there. It is, the book is trying to encourage people to sit in zazen. So I think our intent for practice, when we first start doing something like Zen or any spiritual practice, our intent is one thing. It could be enlightenment, it could be fame, it could be to get healthy, could be to get balanced, whatever it may be. But that intent changes in time. So I think my book is for beginners, to encourage them. In the beginning, I needed encouragement. In the beginning, I needed the book study. But what happened with me, which enabled me to kind of, I would say, get a little space from the culture and the doctrine and the strict hierarchy and all of the literature, was an unfortunate set of incidents in my sangha, which I felt sort of isolated and alone, and all I had was my practice. So it. It kind of helped me organically. I mean, it wasn't an act of rebellion or I'll show them, or I'm going to do what they say and just sit zaza in and stop talking about. Wasn't that. That wasn't the intent. It was just part of my unique situation. And I had to come to terms with the fact that I was sort of being criticized and attacked and not trusted in a spiritual community, which is difficult when we're talking, meeting after meeting about compassion. We're talking meeting after meeting about big mind. And then you see that humans are humans, regardless of their title or the tradition. And instead of me kind of saying, well, what's the point of all this if. If we're not going to practice what we preach? That's kind of not how it went down with me. It went down. Whereas, okay, I have to practice these things. Compassion, big mind within myself. I can't let that dictate my behavior. I can't speak out and rebel against my tradition. And I just kind of sat with it. I just sat in a balanced position. And I began to realize that this whole thing is about personifying to the best of our abilities and within our many, many limitations, especially my limitations. Talk about imperfect Buddha. It's to put ourselves in a balanced position, like nature itself, and let that balance seep into us and into our lives and into our psyche. So it was by kind of being an outcast in Zen where I really started to feel it. And I could have never planned that when I had my initial intent for practicing. So, as I say, sometimes our intents change, and the way we learn is not the way we thought we would.

E (11:52)

Yeah, there's an interesting juxtaposition between those two words. I think the one you mentioned of outcasts, but also the idealization of this idea of the sangha and an almost social expectation that is going to provide that context, whether the real practice or the good practice will take place. So, I mean, did you just find yourself in tension with Zen as institution, or was there Some particular aspect to practice or human dynamics that just didn't work for you any longer.

C (12:25)

Yeah, I made a Bodhisattva vow. Now, I'm careful not to take that too seriously because we can get caught up in that, and that can become our identity, and we can put pressure on ourself. We have this vow to save all beings. You know, it's kind of a big, big expectation, which is kind of the point point. You know, you can't save all beings. So we have to make remain realistic. But within that vow, I started working in my community. I started doing engaged Buddhism, which was. Had nothing to do with my Sangha. My Sangha was in Northern California. I'm in conservative Florida. I'm in the south here. So I think that cultural difference, you know, that kind of led me. And I started working, you know, coaching soccer, and I started teaching the kids, high schoolers, middle schoolers, what I called focus drills. You know, I couldn't call it meditation. That would not be good down here in the South. Probably would have gotten in some trouble for that. So I called them focus drills. So I started working with athletes that way. Then I started working with prisoners, and then I started working with senior citizens in assisted living homes. So my practice kind of went out into my community, and this is a unique community here in Florida. And I started to realize that my whole life is practice. You know, it's all practice. It's not. You go and you. You speak about these theories and you learn these theoretical discourses in a group setting. And, you know, in the beginning, I kind of thought that was Zen Buddhism, you know, the Sangha. Now, of course, the Buddha says we need Sangha. It's one of the three jewels, right? But my Sangha was the high school soccer team. My Sangha was the assisted living home. And my Sangha was the death row inmates in Florida. So it just kind of organically developed from there. Like I said, it wasn't any act of rebellion or it's just where my life took my practice. And I was open enough to allow it to do that.

E (14:48)

And this was frowned upon to some odd degree.

C (14:53)

Well, I use very contemporary, skillful means. I don't use typically here. I don't use even the word Buddha. I don't use, you know, triple treasure. I don't use Sangha. I don't use Dharma. I don't use big mind. I don't use visceral. And I could keep going and going and going. The typical terms. I don't use them just because of the People I was working with the real humans in my own life. And so I started seeing it more, you know, as a contemporary thing, as something in my actual life, not some historical precedence or tradition. And it just all naturally evolved. Kind of like if you plant a seed in balanced conditions, it's going to grow and it's going to bear fruit. Well, I couldn't have imagined when I first planted that seed of meditation where this would have grown and how it would have grown and how it would have fed people. But this is just the way it went. So I'm going with it for better or worse. There's advantages and disadvantages.

E (16:08)

Sure. Yeah. And I think you're describing very nicely the difference between the concept of sangha and then something that's living and real and where our actions actually matter beyond just the performance of an idea. I mean, you're describing actually helping people and kind of liberating yourself from the constraints of language. Right?

C (16:32)

Yes. But, you know, I have to be careful. I. This is my. It's my famous line. Anybody I. I work with, they start saying that as a joke, like, maybe I'm too careful, but I'm careful with that helping people identity. Because when I break it down to its bare essence, I'm helping people because of the life it gives me. It's a fulfilling life. It's a warm, fun, interesting life, helping people. So I always say, you know, I. I help people for myself, number one. And number two, I help people for my family and then my community. And then if there's anything left over, I do it for God. So I put, you know, usually we think God's first, even in Buddhism, or we wouldn't call it God, we would call it something else. But maybe the vow. But for me, it's last, whatever's left over. So my book and everything I say is kind of like some leftovers you have in the refrigerator. You definitely want to smell it, make sure it's not rotten before you eat it. Sorry, I laugh at myself quite a bit.

E (17:51)

Yeah, that's okay.

C (17:53)

Smell this and make sure it's not rotten, you know?

E (17:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So if I pick out a few bits and bobs then from your book and also pick up on this idea, or at least keep it there in the background. This idea of not identifying with roles, which, you know, I agree is. I think at some point, if you commit to practice of some kind, and you do kind of develop a relationship with it beyond just the performance of an idea, I think at some point you come to Terms with the fact that it's not necessarily going to help you build a better alternative identity which you can hang out in. Although it's kind of written in the text. Right. You hear it in the teachings that, you know, Buddhism. Sure. It's not about the ego identity and whatnot. We do have a habit of falling for that.

C (18:42)

Yeah. It's not going to protect us. It's not going to give. I mean, it is. You do act more stably and carefully. So it does protect us in that essence, but it's. It's ourselves just being more practical and not doing extreme things. It's not going to give a social status. In my particular instance, it did the opposite. It distanced me from the tradition, and it. You're not going to feel great all the time either. So when it comes back down to it, it's just life and minimizing risks and. And it's minimizing, you know, internal risks. The way we think. Do we turn the news on every day? What do we do with our focus? Really, it's about that. It's. What voice in our head do we listen to Now? Some people call it Buddha or God or Dharma. I call it the coach. Just call it the coach. It's the voice that says, mark, you need to clean the windows. So instead of just pushing that aside and letting that pressure build up, as soon as coach tells me to clean the windows, I just clean the windows. It's pretty simple.

E (20:08)

So, all right, let's. Let's go with that then for a moment. So this is the coach within that pops up in your book. How do we distinguish this coach, then, from just another layer of the ego trying to manage itself or life?

C (20:23)

Well, it's a creative process. I mean, for me, practice is art. There's no separation between my art and my actual life. It's a. It's a highly creative process that's always moving and it's never stagnant. But coach is pretty consistent, and it's real simple. I think we all know. Even kids know two wrongs don't make a right. Very, very, very simple. Coach is very simple. We all know we have to go to the doctor if we have a problem, and we might be afraid or we may not have insurance here in the United States. But we know eventually, if the problem persists, we have to go. If our tooth is aching, we go to the dentist. If our trash is full, we empty the trash. That's it. I mean, it's. It's not ego. It's just practical and it always has the team in mind as much as possible. And when it doesn't have the team in mind, even a kid knows, you know, when they're being kind of naughty. And there's nothing wrong with being naughty. You know, sometimes Coach encourages us to be naughty. So it's not necessarily a definitive voice. It's more of a feeling. It's more of a warm, stable feeling. But as you said, we have to articulate it some way if we hope to encourage people. And so it has to have a voice in order for us to talk across the ocean like this, right? Although maybe you and I'll generate a little feeling today too, which is part of the whole package of communication that sometimes we de emphasize Eczema is unpredictable,

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E (23:58)

Okay, so I'm hearing in this. Well, two things, really. I think one of them is a simplification and a kind of stripping away of complexity around a kind of inner compass, in a sense. That's another way of maybe sort of imagining what you're talking about there. Would you relate that to another thing that turns up in your book, which is this distinction between basic biology and mystical ideology? Because it could easily go in both ways.

C (24:31)

Absolutely. As I say in the book, the book makes it real easy for me now to. To talk. It's one of the reasons I wrote it, to continue to remind myself of, you know, that it is biology and not mystical ideology. But if we put ourselves in a balanced position each day, it's kind of like eating well or exercising, you know, we need that for our bodies and refraining from certain things. If we get down and put ourselves in a balanced position, just on a very simple level, I like the seed analogy. It's always good. You just plant the seed in balanced conditions and it knows what to do. It grows. So regardless of where we are in our lives, if we put ourselves in a balanced position each morning and we kind of sit still and quiet and see what's kind of happening and moving within us, it puts us in the best position we can be in for our lives. Each of us are in different relative positions. So it's just putting the body. You know, your right leg is on one side, your left leg's on the other. Your hands are in a certain position on top of one another. Your dominant hand is over your less dominant hand. And when you drop your hands down, your less dominant hand is facing up. Your ears are kind of. Even your eyes, your shoulders, your whole body's in a balanced position. And somehow that just. This is where the mystical part comes in. Somehow it kind of takes over and starts to balance your whole life. But it comes down to putting your body in the position, not necessarily your mind. And then your body starts to influence you. It's kind of like riding a bike, you know, if we overthink the balance it takes to ride a bike. Like when we first learned to ride a bike, when we were I, at least for me, I was always falling on the ground. And my father's yelling at Me get back up. Get back up. I was overthinking the balance it takes to ride a bike. We can do that in life, too. So I just get down and do balance. It's. And it. It rubs off. I don't really know how it works, to be honest, on a scientific level.

E (27:11)

Yeah, sure, yeah. I mean. I mean, we. We can talk about that. We can even talk about the. The kind of psychological interpretation of what's going on. But. Yeah. Is it always necessary? No. Might it be a kind of justification and.

C (27:26)

Yeah, right. But if somebody is thinking about meditating and they're an academic, they might need that. They might need that to encourage them to do it. They may need to see what the studies say because that's how they. They work for me. I've thought so much during my life and studied so much and read so many books and even went to university and kept going to university and studying and studying and studying and studying. Finally one day I just said, oh, I've got to. I've got to empty this out and give myself a little space. I'm constantly feeding my mind with different ideas and theories. And like I said, I think it was the fact that I was distant from my actual sangha and all of that material and all of formal Buddhism that allowed me to come to the conclusion that I'm not ignorant, I'm not discarding legitimate problems in the world. I'm doing what I can. I'm putting myself in a balanced position every morning. I'm doing everything as right as I'm capable of. What more is there to think about? Maybe what I should focus on is appreciating what's right here as opposed to what I could be or what the world could be or what other people could be. Maybe I could just be. And that's, you know, to say that is one thing. It's easy to say that, but to actually be it, to be, just to be. Wow, that's a cool thing. You know, every day. Every day. You know, there are times when I'm not just being and I catch myself, but they're the fun times. They're like, whoa, what was that all about, man? That's something from childhood, you know, that's your dad's voice. Maybe that's a fear or whatever it may be, but when I get down in the morning in that balanced position, I always think the same thing. Because when I sit down, whether it was from a dream or maybe I didn't sleep so well, or whatever, maybe what the day holds when I First, sit down. Everything is so wobbly, like the whole world's spinning. And there's all these information flying through my head. Ideas, memories, things that I can't control. They just are popping in there. And then after a few minutes, it starts to settle down and I get this kind of warmth in my stomach, kind of like the rising sun. And then the warmth rises up to my head and I have this, like crystal clear focus, and I'm just there. And then the coach says, man, this is a miracle. This meditation thing is a miracle. Every single solitary morning, it's the same thing, but it's different. Completely different experience. But the conclusion always is, is, man, this. How could I just sitting here doing nothing, do this. And then I'm like. I'm filled with a warmth that I carry throughout the rest of the day, and that softens everything up. You know, it helps me see that other people are suffering and suffering. People do things to make other people suffer. If someone cuts me off at traffic and they're driving, you know, in their big pickup truck with the gun rack and they cut me off, I. I tend not to go into my narratives concerning that because, you know, it's tricky time to be in the United States right now, especially in a very conservative place like I am. And I could easily get frustrated and cynical and judgmental towards what's going on here. But I think that little warmth that I cultivate in meditation helps me get past all that keeps my sanity. Because, you know, to be an American right now is. It's difficult. Yeah.

E (31:55)

Although. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, if. If the time is only ever the present, you know, it's all kind of relative to some degree, but I hear

C (32:05)

you, but we have to be careful. Yeah. Careful with that type of thinking. You know, here's my careful again.

E (32:13)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, It's me again. Please excuse this short interruption. As you may have heard at the start, I offer coaching and mentoring services to those looking for an alternative approach to the practicing life. If you're looking to start up a practice or. Or review your existing practice from a wider perspective, or simply tackle challenges that have come up for you and that traditional approaches don't seem quite right for, or mere mindfulness isn't resolving, I may be able to help. If you're attracted to the idea of a critical and deep approach to the practice of single life, well, you can Explore more@imperfectbuddha.com Coaching. I think I would reframe it, though. I think, you know, be careful. Could be re. Reformulated as enacting care. I think you could probably tell another story about the choices you made about being of service. And yes, you've described it as something that provides pleasure and meaning for you first. But I also think that when we talk about ideas like compassion or loving kindness, they're quite abstract to a certain degree. I mean, outside of Buddhism, how often do we ever talk about either of those concepts? I mean, we don't. I mean, we might sort of rationalize them and create a link to Christianity or something, but they are abstract. And I think going along with the kind of story or experience you're sharing with us. I think to care for the world within your context means to live in many ways in the way you're describing. And, you know, careful is almost about caution. But to. To live with care for the world is. Is always expressed through, I think, to some degree, something simple. You know, if you're helping people in your local community, I mean, I think that's. I mean, that's the height. That's the height of compassionate action for most people most of the time in those periods of history.

C (34:29)

Well, I'll tell you a funny story that kind of emphasizes my careful approach. So my practice is compassion. Yes. So one morning, I lifted up my meditation mat. I had a busy day that day. I was like, man, I got just enough time to meditate, and then I got to get going. I lifted up my mat and I dusted it off, and there was this huge roach, which I thought had passed away. And there were thousands of little white bugs that looked like they were feeding on this roach. And I thought, oh, man, what am I going to do here? Then I realized that it was a pregnant roach, and those little white specks were baby roaches. Now, I had a busy day ahead of me, so quickly I grabbed the dustpan, I swept the mother onto the dustpan. All the babies ran into the wall. Like, there's a crack in the wall. I'm like, oh, man, I got thousands of roach babies in my wall. Anyway, I brought the mother outside because she was still giving birth. And as soon as I put her on the ground, I mean, within a second, a huge lizard came up and ate her whole. So then I'm like, oh, boy. Nature just showed me the limits of compassion, huh? And that lizard. I'm that lizard's best friend. I just gave him this amazing meal. I came back up, and I lifted my mat, and all the babies had formed a little circle around where their mother was. And I was like, oh, man. Like, it was Beautiful. You know, it's like. Talk about warmth. It was compassion. Like they think their mother's still alive. And then I was. I tried to. To get them in the dustpan, but they were too fast. They just kept running. And, you know, I figured I was harming them. And I was like, what am I going to do? I can't leave them in the wall. They're not going to survive anyway. But if they do, I'm going to have a roach infestation. So I waited till they came back under the mat and I grabbed the vacuum cleaner and I suck them all up in one scoop. So what's my message there? We have to be practical in our compassion. And the roaches wouldn't have survived without their mother anyway. And I just. I had to get going with my day, so I had to make a decision. So sometimes the decision is whether to interfere with nature, whether to stay out of it. But if you. When I think in terms of is my presence going to help stabilize things or help the balance, or if I get involved, am I going to risk throwing it off even more? So that's kind of the. That's kind of the dilemma when you get involved in the compassion world. Sometimes compassion is not going to stabilize things. It's not even going to be helpful. In fact, it's going to make things worse. That's what I've learned.

E (37:49)

Well, I think there's also the theme of hubris in there as well. Who decides at the end of the day what is compassionate action? Perhaps you'd refer back to your coach. That's why I think I started off by responding to your initial point with this idea of. Of having care, just because I think it's more tangible and I think it lends itself to more, well, a simpler ideal, which is to, again, go back to things you said so far. I mean, it's tangible. It's not abstract. Right? To care for an old person who's thirsty is to get them a glass of water. I mean, do we have to call that compassion? It sounds far too much. But if you're committing to your local community by providing a service or even just listening to folks on death row who may not have had much in the way of actually genuine conversation, I think, again, that could be recast as an act of care rather than this sort of big word of compassion. And maybe that's worth now tying to the other big word which forever dogs. I think Buddhism and certainly Western practitioners who are so obsessed with trying to get somewhere with all this, which is enlightenment throughout your book. I mean, you're not promoting enlightenment by any means. Right. You might even suggest that we just forget it.

C (39:12)

Yeah, there's a whole chapter on that. Yes, forget.

E (39:15)

So maybe you can talk to that next.

C (39:18)

Well, yeah, I think if you've ever met anyone who's truly enlightened. I've met people that are and they would never consider themselves enlightened and they're not Buddhists. Most of the enlightened people I've actually met, they were just nice people, pretty laid back and non judgmental and kind of comfortable in their own skin. And sometimes these folks are that way genetically or it was the way they were raised or it was just their lot in life where they're happy, go, lucky type of person. But I always used to be amazed by these people, you know, wow. In some sense I actually looked down on them. You know, they were naive, but now I see it a bit differently. An enlightened person I don't think would know it and they certainly wouldn't say it out loud. So to kind of chase enlightenment defeats the purpose. If you're chasing enlightenment or you think you're enlightened. I tell people if, if somebody says they're enlightened, run away. If somebody says somebody else, like a teacher or guru is enlightened, run even faster. Just get away as quick as you can. So yeah, certainly de emphasize enlightenment. But at the same time I've met enlightened people and I've had some real mystical experiences myself that I can't reason away. And they certainly contributed to my understanding of, you know, the whole universe being connected and all of us being of the same stuffs actually being the same thing or non thing. It's kind of hard to talk about these things, but we're all connected and I feel that way. And I think enlightenment is just knowing that we're all equally enlightened and we're all equal and we're all the same.

E (41:40)

Same.

C (41:41)

We're all the same, let's just put it that way and that there's no levels of awareness and each person and each living being has a niche in the whole. I mean we're part of nature, we're part of the balance of nature, whether we realize it or not. Some people don't feel at home in the world. They don't. They can't be themselves, they can't act naturally. So I think enlightenment is just realizing that everything in the whole balanced, at least on planet Earth. It may seem off balance at times, but really behind it all it's balanced enough for us to perceive it as imbalanced. I mean, even imbalance comes from balance. You have to be balanced enough to be imbalanced. So I think we can forget that we are part of all that on a very simplistic level and that we are balanced and each individual has their niche. And I think being enlightened is just living in accordance with that understanding, whatever that may look like. Okay. If that made any sense.

E (42:53)

Well, it depends if I approach it from a, from a critical perspective or not. Right. And that's not necessarily the nature of the conversation we're having. I would suggest this, that all human beings are creatures that must attempt to make sense of things. And I think you've just demonstrated that. I still think to some degree, I would say that you've reformulated a kind of Zen vision of the world. So it's in keeping with that. I think the words matter. And I think in this case I just. Why bother with that word enlightenment then? I mean, I put it out there first of all, of course there is something about the simplicity of our basic humanity. And I think, I guess in this period of my life as a long term practitioner myself, I'm kind of interested in how it is we over interpret things. And I'm always fascinated by people who don't access the kind of either the coach, as you described it, that natural warmth, the idea of balance, there are people who find darkness or struggle there too. Looking at practice as a training for meeting the world is absolutely spot on. And I think that's the point where maybe it can be almost universalized. I don't know if you want to respond to that. Otherwise I wanted to say something about nothingness.

C (44:17)

Okay, well, before we get to nothingness, talking about nothingness, there's the challenge. Talking about enlightenment, another challenge. But I think at least for me, I had to think myself out as far as I could possibly go. I had to learn everything I could outside of myself before I started realizing, okay, now you gotta learn what's inside of you. And once you, once I started doing that, I started the, the, the, the separation between inside and outside started to blur. You know, I started to see myself in everything. I started to see everything inside of myself and that kind of thing. I mean, it's great to talk about and it could encourage someone, but I don't necessarily know if it's helpful. I think my message is just plant yourself like a seed in balanced conditions and you'll grow in your balance. You'll bear fruit, you know, that's about as simple as I can get it. Just be like a seed or a cat. I like cats. Cats are really cool. You know, there's a chapter in my book called One Cool Cat.

G (45:36)

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E (46:04)

Big fan of cats, too. And I think the metaphor of the sea works. But let's say you plant that seed. Of course, one of the tendencies I think, of many Westerners, in part due to the Judeo Christian background, is that when you meet emptiness or the void or no self or absence, nothingness may rear its head. And it might be quite scary. Yeah, might be quite worrying to meet this experience of what some might even go as far as oblivion. So have you had some familiarity with that kind of. I don't want to call it a dark side. The other side of the coin of fullness and of experiencing being in the world and of the world is also to be nothing and to have nothing at all to hold onto or grasp onto. Is that something you understand, you have an idea about, or you have some response to?

C (46:58)

Absolutely. First of all, remember that feeling I was talking about earlier? Yeah, the. The that came to me when you were talking about that. Because it's a great point. It's a very good point. I talk about in the book how, you know, my compassion. I like care. I like that. I'm glad you changed my terminology on that. I might use that if that's okay. But I mentioned how my career and my ability to think expansively did not come from gentle, kind teachers. It came from the darkness and the really difficult times in my life. And you certainly have a point. Like I said, I thought myself out as far as I could go that this is included in that, because you can. You can get carried away by the, you know, relative futility of everything and not care. So it's a fine line. But I think just sitting there in a peaceful, balanced position, staring at the wall, without all of the distractions and stimuli that we're used to in today's world, those fears, they pop up and they have voices and they have memories associated with them. They have their own language and they make you feel sometimes terrified. I say to people that I show how to meditate. Notice I don't teach a show, that sometimes when I meditate, it's pure torture. It's hell. It literally is hell. Sometimes 30 minutes of hell where all of that stuff comes up. But as a veteran, I was in the Marines. I went through 18 months of what they call prolonged exposure therapy. It's when you relive everything over and over and over and over and over again, so that when these memories and feelings and thoughts pop up in your daily life, they're not as intense, they're not as frightening anymore. It's just repetitive. Repetitive. And I think that's what meditation is. You're in a safe spot that you pick in your own house that you go to every day with that mat and that wall, and you sit there and you take whatever comes up and you learn to deal with that. I say it's kind of like a kid with a. You call it football, we call it soccer. He's kind of. When he's a little kid, he's always kicking that. That ball against the wall. You know, I heard that. Who's the Argentinian? You know, the hand of God? Maradona. Yeah, I heard people talking about Maradona in a documentary once. And they said when he would go to the supermarket with his mother, he would be playing football with the apples, with the tissue paper, whatever even resembled a ball. He was constantly working with that ball so that his body learned how to control that ball to such an extent that he became a master. And I think what we're talking about here is controlling. Not controlling like you would a ball, it's more directing it, you know, because sometimes balls will take strange bounces. And, you know, when you're working with a team, things happen that are well beyond your control. But it's more learning how to handle what comes up in the course of the heated battle of the game, which is, you know, our lives. And it's really that simple. If you do it over and over again, those fears kind of lose their grip, their tyranny. The tyranny of the fear, I like to call it sometimes. And it kind of loosens up. So the fear isn't the center of the universe anymore. It's just a part of it, like everything else. So it's kind of like we bring that darkness in and acknowledge it in ourself in order to kind of pacify it, like pat it on the head and say, oh, that's a good boy. Everything's going to be all right. That's the other thing. When I'm meditating each morning, it's a miracle. And then I get the warm feeling, and it's like, oh, everything's all right. Everything's gonna be all right. Boy. It's kind of like a reassurance that everything's the way it should be. And it's playing out in a. In a way that it has to. So. But we're talking about these subtle things and feelings. I talk about feelings and my actual thoughts way more than at least the formal Zen I've been a part of over the years. I talk about these things in a practical sense, and Zen kind of shies away from that. And I think that's one of the reasons I make people in the tradition uncomfortable, because I get real personal.

E (52:19)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are a couple of things that come up in response to what you said, but I think the more interesting one is to stay close to the content of your book. You've meditated with prisoners on death row. And, you know, if we were to tie that to the last thing you just said, that everything is in its right place, that's a kind of interesting environment in which to. To hold to that idea. Right. You know, you got people there facing impending death.

C (52:50)

How do you.

E (52:50)

How do you square those two? And, I mean, perhaps the second question I can just tag on to that is, you know, what have you learned so far from this experience?

C (53:00)

Well, that's another good point. The first student I had on death row, guy I started working with, I saw him in a documentary. Now, I have been to prison, by the way. That's what encouraged me to go back in. I was in jail. If you don't know the difference between a jail and a prison, you're lucky. But. But, you know, the charges were dropped in my case and my records clean and all that, but it was an eye opening. And after that, I made the decision that I wanted to go back in and help these guys because most of them were uneducated. They had terrible childhoods, traumatic childhoods, or their substance abuse, stuff like that. So I wanted to go back in. But the first guy I worked with in this documentary, he was kind of cavalier, and he was saying that he deserves to be put to death. And he. If the truth is presented to him, he'll accept it. And, you know, in some sense, the truth sets him free. He was saying things that were very Zen, like. So I thought, wow, this guy, he may actually get something from this. So I wrote him a snail mail Letter and we developed a relationship and now I've been working with him for at least three or four, maybe even more years. And all I can say is the guy that I started working with and the guy that I talk to now, they're not even the same human being. Their whole tone has changed, their body language has changed. They're gentle, more gentle, you know, as gentle as you can be on death row. And his focus is apologizing to his victims families and helping people who have no help in there. The other inmates, like at Christmas we, we organized presents for the guys that didn't have any. So the proof is in the pudding, as they say. I mean, all you have to do is watch that documentary and talk to this guy now and you just know, you know the difference. And it's because he sat there and he faced all this stuff and as much as possible he freed himself. And it's just been amazing to watch. I wish they would do another documentary, a follow up, you know, because it, the first one makes the guy look terrible. And if they did a follow up, it would be, wow, it would just be cool to see the two, you know, in comparison to one another. You'd see it wouldn't even need to be explained.

E (55:45)

Yeah, it's quite, quite a transformation to assist with. Not necessarily, obviously thinking about whether you did something or not, but this guy made that commitment to transform the quality of his presence in that way. I mean. Good.

C (56:01)

Yeah, yeah.

E (56:02)

And also it does make me think about, well, I mean, this is a big philosophical question, right? Who is ultimately responsible for their actions. On a conventional level, it's right that people are imprisoned for their actions when it's appropriate. But it's also interesting to hear a story like this of the guy you're describing because obviously, I mean, you said it in your own words, he's not the same person he was. You know, how do we square that? Right. Am I that person? Right.

C (56:31)

That's why it's important to practice balance if you can, because you, you avoid extremes that could get you in a situation like that. But in order to meditate or have a spiritual practice, we have to be relatively stable. Otherwise it's, it's, it's not a cure, it's not going to help. So my message often with spiritual seekers is to give them a brochure of local mental health services. That's, you know, and I say, when's the last time you've been to the doctor? When's the last time you've been to the dentist? So it Always fascinates people. You know, they want to meditate with me and I say, I'm sorry, I can't work with you until you go to the dentist and you go to the doctor and get a checkup and you check in at the local mental health clinic. They don't see the connection. But for me, there's no point in working with someone unless they're at a relative level of stability, because otherwise it's pointless and it can make people worse. We have to be careful, as you know, I love to say we have to care. I'll take the fool out. We have to care. We have to be full of care. Because this kind of stuff is. It can harm people. And I've seen it. I've seen it a lot. Zen, informal Zen. I haven't seen it harm people to any extreme level. I mean, I have seen it harm people in certain ways. But there are practices out there and gurus and channelers and clairvoyance and whatever people want to call themselves that can actually hurt people. So I'm very, very full of care in that aspect. I think it's the teacher or the. Even though I downplay that I'm an authority figure and I don't want to be one, I think it's the authority figures job to ensure that nobody considers them more than just a stupid human. And I. I am a very stupid human, and I make that very clear.

E (58:50)

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. And I would agree.

C (58:53)

No, I say medication and meditation are very good together. From a personal experience, you know, it was the meditation. I mean, it was the medication and the thought therapy and the healthy living that led to the meditation. And then that's what enabled the meditation to kind of put the cherry on top of the ice cream sundae.

E (59:16)

Yeah, yeah. And that's again, an interesting point, I think, also culturally, because there's been a tendency for meditation to be employed as a kind of therapeutic practice. And that's certainly been a big. A big characteristic or an important characteristic of American Buddhism. And some people have criticized that, and I think some of that criticism has been appropriate. I certainly think that trying to use meditation to turn you into a happy, fully adjusted human being is a slightly problematic concept. But I also agree with what you've said. I mean, if you've got issues and if you have not come to terms with working with your own emotions and understanding the ways, perhaps you have learned not to face and deal with your own emotional and psychological suffering, therapy is probably going to be a better option. And I also think that mixing up the purposes of these two quite distinct practice traditions is also problematic. So I think it's good that you employ that discipline. And I would agree with you. And you do talk about turning people away. Right. And there is a certain, I think, utility in that. And I mean, the second point that comes up as well is that a lot of Buddhism in America, again, not just America, but you guys are always the winners in these kinds of things. The commercialization of Buddhism or the kind of need to increase the number of followers to pay your bills. And that kind of thing means that sometimes those safe, healthy, ethical boundaries you spoke to are not always maintained.

C (60:56)

Yeah, that's one good thing about the sangha I was in, that there was no money involved. In fact, the teacher was well off and he spent way more money than anybody ever gave. There was no money involved. And that's been my philosophy. And I tell people this all the time, keep your living separate. You know, we have to earn money. Even monasteries need to earn money. Somebody has to pay the bills. But if I was to consider my practice or my teaching as my living, you know, when you're making a living, there's the old saying, the customer is always right. Well, if it's my business. And I just got into a situation like this with someone who I kind of partnered up with and I think her intent was good. But the mix between the business and having to pay the rent and, and the, the things we were doing in the community made me very, very uncomfortable. So we left on good terms and everything. But for me, money can't be involved. I mean, I'll accept donations, of course, but I won't even ask for a donation. You know, it's only if someone asks. And I'll say, yeah, you know, because sometimes it does. It takes a lot of my time. I mean, this is my whole life. And with the senior citizens, I actually get paid, you know, minimum wage, minimum wage type job, but still I'm getting paid to, to do what I love and to practice, which makes it amazing. Which brings its own set of things, like working with the seniors. I drive this huge bus, I wear this uniform. And my community is pretty affluent. It's a beach, beach community. And a lot of the interactions I have out in the community are interesting in the sense that people look at me and they think, oh, here's this 50 some year old guy driving this bus. What did he do wrong? You know, it's low on the social totem pole.

E (63:11)

Yeah.

C (63:12)

And, and at first that was a little Difficult to adjust to. But now I think it's perfect. It keeps me humble. It keeps me from thinking I'm enlightened, you know, because there's a guy in a Mercedes giving me the finger and beeping his horn because I'm letting a woman in a wheelchair down on a lift and he can't get past, you know, all right.

E (63:37)

Poor, poor bugger.

C (63:39)

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't get mad at him. Like, my initial reaction is Marine, you know, storm just attack him. But then my practice kicks in, you know, and I realize the guy in the Mercedes, Just because he's got the Mercedes doesn't mean he isn't suffering in his own way, maybe. Suffering in ways I can't even imagine.

E (64:03)

Yeah, well, even there, I mean, I think one of the background themes of our conversation today is this notion of basic humanity. And I think that that's always an interesting point of tension when we start thinking about ethical and moral behavior. There are the six and the ten perfections in different areas of Buddhism, and they're noble in many ways. The outfall path. All these many teachings that give us guidance on the consequences of our actions. But, you know, it's also human, isn't it, to respond to a guy behaving like that and just think, what an asshole, and, you know, maybe I should give him a piece of my mind and. But it kind of feels to me like if we're honest about that, then rather than trying to suppress it or replace it with some holier than thou behavior, you know, the acceptance of it is what permits us to be human with that guy, too.

C (64:55)

Right, right, right, right, right, right. Like, I see that a lot. And it's hard not to judge when someone's speaking the spiritual speak. Yeah. And they're, they're kind of tucking in that tone. Yeah. This, this monotone, like. And it's hard not to judge them, but they got their own deal, so. But I find it's hardest. Here's, you know, but I'm just going to lay it out on the table. When it comes to the general public and the people I work with and even the Sangha people and even my family, I've got, you know, I'm pretty, pretty proficient at keeping, keeping it cool and having the right perspective. But the thing that I still have not mastered is intimate relationships with females.

E (65:50)

Okay.

C (65:52)

Because when I've, like, you know, for me, if I feel attacked, the Marine, the Philly guy, the guy from Philadelphia, you know, the guy that was the Irish mobster and the guy that wanted to be the outlaw biker and the teamster union guy that, you know, that guy wants to come out and, and, and it's difficult. So I, I definitely need to get more proficient when it comes to intimate relationships.

E (66:20)

Yeah.

C (66:21)

So it's always work, always a work in progress.

E (66:24)

Yeah. Yeah.

C (66:26)

I was just in Canada and the folks in Canada were like, I can't believe you're American. You're not like an American. And I guess I felt a bit of pride there, to be honest, but I was, I was just shocked. You know, it's, it's shocking to see how my country is viewed. You know, I'm not placing any judgment on it one way or another because that's not going to help me in my community. I've got, I've got to work with people I don't agree with. But I think the one thing staring at the, the wall does is it kind of helps us understand that we're part of a bigger picture.

E (67:10)

Yeah. So your ultimate goal is to die with a clear awareness. How, how likely is that?

C (67:19)

Well, that is just, you know, a young woman asked me that once at a dock, you know, what's the purpose of life? And I said, to die with a clear awareness and love in my heart. But I don't want to get too caught up in that idea because I have no idea what's going to happen when the time comes. So the only thing I could do is put myself, I know how to meditate and put myself in a balanced position. Lying down on my back, staring at the ceiling. Just stare at the ceiling. So that's what I'll do. I'll put myself in the most balanced position I can when the moment of truth arises and we'll see what happens. It's as far as I can go there.

E (68:06)

Good. So, Mark, we're coming to the end of our time. Okay. You don't have an agent currently for your book, so if you've got a plan, are you looking at doing something with it? Anyway, any thoughts to share on that before we close out?

C (68:23)

Yeah, I'll probably, if I have to, I'll just self publish and go that route. I mean, I don't see any. In the beginning I thought there's no point if I'm just going to self publish because anybody can self publish. But now some fairly cool broad minded individuals have changed my perspective on that and have actually showed me that there's a lot of benefits to self publishing these days. So I, I think it's a book that I don't know if society or is ready for it at this time. So I may have to self publish. As you know, it's pretty in some sense, it's a little wild, wouldn't you say?

E (69:14)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Whatever you do choose to do, may it be successful and may you continue to dedicate time and care to your local community. Which is great to hear. Thank you for coming onto the podcast and having a chat. Where can people find out more about you if you wish? They wish them to.

C (69:36)

Yeah, it's www stare@the wall.org they can go there and there's some social media stuff that was just essential for the book. But yeah, I'm not real into it. But yeah, you can find my information there and all that. And I just want to let you know I learned quite a bit today. So that's what it's all about, right? I like your your concept of care. I like a lot of what you said. It brought up a lot in me. So thank you God.

E (70:09)

You're welcome. And a good exchange for our time together then. Ladies and gentlemen, you have been listening to Mark Blacknell on the Imperfect Buddha podcast and we'll catch you next time. Bye for now.

G (70:57)

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