Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Interview with Dr. Justin Gregg, Author of If Nietzsche Were a Narwhal: What Animal Intelligence Reveals About Human Stupidity
Date: January 18, 2026
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Justin Gregg

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Justin Gregg discussing his thought-provoking book, If Nietzsche Were a Narwhal: What Animal Intelligence Reveals About Human Stupidity. The conversation tackles deep questions about what human intelligence is, whether it is as beneficial as we assume, and how non-human animal cognition might be preferable—or at least less self-destructive—than our own. Gregg’s research draws from animal behavior, philosophy, psychology, and his extensive work with dolphins, urging listeners to rethink the value and possible drawbacks of uniquely human ways of thinking.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origin of the Book & Title

• Dr. Gregg’s background (Dolphin Communication Project; adjunct professor; public outreach) led him to question if human intelligence is worth “elevating” animals toward.
• Premise: Instead of asking how animals can reach human intelligence, what if human intelligence isn’t the ideal?

  “Maybe human intelligence isn’t something that's even good in the first place.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [03:09]

• Nietzsche in the Title: Nietzsche, known for his existential angst, envied animals' simplicity. The narwhal was chosen for alliteration, though any non-human animal could have served.

  “I really wanted to use Nietzsche as an example of a very intelligent human whose intelligence was making him miserable...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [04:03]

Defining & Questioning Intelligence

• No fixed definition: Intelligence varies across domains (AI, human, animal); usually, “intelligence” means “similar to humans.”
• The book explores whether thinking like a human is good (biologically or ethically).

  “Are we sure that thinking like a human is even good, whatever good might mean?” — Dr. Justin Gregg [05:19]

The Human “Why?” & Causal Inference

• Humans specialize in asking “why”—a cognitive skill foundational to science, engineering, and technological progress (e.g., vaccines, satellites).
• But this trait produces both extraordinary benefit and unprecedented harm (e.g., nuclear weapons).

  “It's always a double-edged sword. There's great benefit and then there's great misery that comes of it.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [08:15]

Lying and Deception in Humans vs. Animals

• Deception is common in the animal kingdom (e.g., Venus fly traps, possums).
• Humans differ: We intentionally manipulate beliefs due to “theory of mind.”

  “We are able to take that deception ability that's baked into all biology to a different level. And I define that as lying...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [09:48]

• Example: A possum “playing dead” deceives, but likely doesn’t understand the predator’s beliefs.

Death Wisdom: Understanding Mortality

• Animals can recognize death on a basic level (distinguishing dead from alive).
• Humans uniquely grasp inevitable personal mortality (“death wisdom”), shaping culture, art, and existential angst.
• This “wisdom” drives both creativity and suffering (depression, anxiety about death).

  “It really is a bummer to know that you're going to die.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [14:12]

• Example: Dr. Gregg discusses his daughter’s first realization about death as a moment of lost innocence.

Human Morality: A Mixed Blessing

• Fairness and basic morality have roots in many animals (e.g., monkeys aggrieved by unequal treats).

• Human morality is more complex: We codify, rationalize, and sometimes justify atrocities (war, genocide) using moral reasoning.

  “What's weird about human morality is that it leads us sometimes down very dark paths...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [17:26]

• Case study: Homophobia

  • Same-sex behavior is widespread and unproblematic in animals.
  • Only humans, through codified morality, stigmatize and punish it—creating suffering unknown in the animal kingdom.

    “Homophobia itself is unique to humans and therefore quite unnatural in the sense that you don't find it in the animal kingdom.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [19:25]

Prognostic Myopia: Flawed Foresight

• Prognostic myopia = Human ability to imagine the future, paired with lack of emotional investment in future outcomes.
• Our biology remains wired for immediate concerns, so we fail to care about long-term consequences, leading to irrational decisions (e.g., climate inaction).

  “We simply don't have a feeling of importance given to a decision about the future that we do for the moment... we don't make very good future decisions.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [21:43]

Would Nietzsche Be Better Off as a Narwhal?

• Gregg suggests that the cognitive traits that made Nietzsche (and perhaps all humans) miserable are absent in animals.
• Animals likely live less anxious, more present lives.
• On balance, intelligence brings both great achievements and great suffering; whether it’s “worth it” is a personal judgment.

  “There could be an argument to say, like, Nietzsche would be better off as a narwhal or any other animal...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [23:43]

Behind the Scenes & Surprises

• Unexpected Reader Response:
  • Many readers focused on Gregg’s personal mention of aphantasia (the inability to visualize mental images), despite its minor role in the book.

    “That seems to be the thing that people have picked out of it and talked to me the most about. And that was a bit surprising.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [25:54]

Future Research Directions

• Gregg is considering a book on aphantasia, connecting it to his work on animal cognition and questioning assumptions about how animals “think.”

  “What even is thinking? What is the language of thought? ...You can relate Aphantasia directly to animal cognition in that sense.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [29:18]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Maybe human intelligence isn’t something that's even good in the first place.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [03:09]
• “Are we sure that thinking like a human is even good, whatever good might mean?” — Dr. Justin Gregg [05:19]
• "What humans do is we are able to take that deception ability that's baked into all biology to a different level. And I define that as lying...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [09:48]
• “It really is a bummer to know that you're going to die.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [14:12]
• “What's weird about human morality is that it leads us sometimes down very dark paths where we can rationalize abysmal terrible behavior...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [17:26]
• “Homophobia itself is unique to humans and therefore quite unnatural in the sense that you don't find it in the animal kingdom...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [19:25]
• “We simply don't have a feeling of importance given to a decision about the future that we do for the moment...” — Dr. Justin Gregg [21:43]
• “There could be an argument to say, like, Nietzsche would be better off as a narwhal or any other animal, and perhaps all of us would be better off as another animal.” — Dr. Justin Gregg [23:43]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:30] — Dr. Gregg explains his background and inspiration for the book
• [04:03] — Why “Nietzsche” and “narwhal”?
• [05:19] — What is intelligence, and is thinking like a human good?
• [07:22] — The double-edged sword of asking “why?” and causal inference
• [09:12] — Lying and deception: humans vs. animals
• [11:47] — Death wisdom: what is it, and do animals have it?
• [13:24] — The pros and cons of “death wisdom”
• [16:06] — Human morality: similarities to and differences from animal morality
• [18:30] — Homosexual behavior and the uniquely human origin of homophobia
• [21:25] — Prognostic myopia: our flawed relationship with the future
• [23:16] — The Nietzsche/narwhal thought experiment
• [25:54] — Surprising reader reactions to aphantasia
• [27:46] — Gregg’s consideration of aphantasia for future research

Conclusion

Dr. Justin Gregg’s If Nietzsche Were a Narwhal raises profound questions about the benefits and pitfalls of human intelligence relative to other animals. Through lively discussion and vivid examples, he challenges intuitive beliefs about the value of human cognition, suggesting that our “advanced” minds bring as much suffering as progress. The episode is thought-provoking, accessible, and peppered with memorable moments—making essential listening for anyone curious about animal minds, the limits of human reason, and the complexities that come from simply being human.