Podcast Summary: Kathryn Hurlock, "Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Professor Kathryn Hurlock
Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the broad, multifaceted history and present of pilgrimage as discussed in Kathryn Hurlock's new book, Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World. The conversation traverses religious, political, economic, and social dimensions of pilgrimage, moving across centuries and continents. Through rich examples, Hurlock and Melcher uncover how pilgrimage impacts individuals and societies, how sites rise and fall in prominence, and how pilgrimage practices connect with contemporary tourism, commerce, and even politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Pilgrimage & Motivation

[02:03-04:09; 09:21-15:44]

• Hurlock's Motivation: Hurlock, a professor of religious and military history, wanted to challenge narrow views of pilgrimage:

  "People tend to have quite fixed ideas of what pilgrimage entails ... but I really wanted to show how it is a much more varied practice ..." (C, 02:14)

• Why People Go: Motivation varies enormously—the destination is often more important than the journey itself:

  "When you look at all these sites, it's very much about the sites themselves." (C, 09:26)

• Multifaceted Purposes: These include seeking health, giving thanks, seeking advice (e.g., consulting the oracle at Delphi), affirming community, demonstrating political power, and fulfilling religious duty.

  Notable story: Empress Wu of China urging her husband, Emperor Gaozong, to undertake a massive pilgrimage to establish legitimacy—

  "This pilgrimage took months ... Empress Wu was very concerned to undertake the rituals there that normally the emperor would undertake because she was trying to show 'I've got as much authority and power as he does.'" (C, 12:20)

2. Selecting Sites—The 19 Case Studies

[04:35-08:43]

• Selection Process: Geographical spread, faith diversity, availability of sources, and illustrative potential.

  "There were some I couldn't leave out ... and then I needed a mix of faith." (C, 04:39, 05:18)

• Small vs. Large Sites: From globally-known centers (Mecca, Jerusalem, Lourdes) to highly localized or minority group sites like Ratana Pa (New Zealand), which evolved from healing into a locus of indigenous Māori political organization.

3. Pilgrimage Sites: Emergence, Decline, and Reinvention

[17:57-26:32]

• Decline of Sites: Political, religious, or social upheaval often precipitates decline.

  • Delphi: Lost significance as Greeks gave way to Romans and later Christians who "stripped Delphi of its wealth." (C, 18:28)
  • Chichen Itza: Spanish colonial violence and prohibition of indigenous practices led to its suppression as a sacred center.

  "Diego de Landa ... is a cut above. He really is passionate about stamping out indigenous religion." (C, 20:16)

• Emergence of New Sites: Marian apparitions (e.g. Lourdes), or popular reverence for secular figures, such as Eva Perón.

  "She's revered virtually as a saint ... the imagery around her, the language used to describe her—Santa Evita…" (C, 24:35)

4. The Pilgrim Experience: Continuities and Challenges

[27:21-33:02]

• Practical Logistics: Consistent concerns about safety, overcrowding, accommodation, exploitation, and commercialization.

  "The logistics ... are problematic throughout history... The danger of getting there is a constant in many cases..." (C, 27:22)

• Commercialization: Long existed alongside the sacred, through souvenirs and relics, now seen as "Disneyfication" in places like Lourdes.

• Modern Complications: Geopolitics, terrorism, and climate change increasingly affect pilgrimage logistics (examples: Saudi Arabia erecting cooling fans, climate-related difficulties in India).

5. Political Dimensions & Government Control

[33:43-44:44]

• Governments Facilitating Pilgrimage: E.g., Saudi Arabia’s rulers showcasing ability to manage the Hajj and using oil revenue to expand Mecca. Britain and the Ottomans facilitated transport for imperial/colonial purposes (Thomas Cook organizing package pilgrimages).

  "It's really a combination of pilgrimage to Mecca and oil that's made the current Saudi Arabian rulers so powerful..." (C, 33:50)

• Political Pilgrimage: Pilgrimages used to show political support or construct identity—e.g., 19th-century national Catholic pilgrimages to Rome supporting the papacy, or fascist pilgrimages during Mussolini's era.

  "People from different countries would organize national pilgrimages ... as a show of support." (C, 40:12)

• Governmental Prohibition & Gatekeeping: For health (cholera) or political reasons (e.g., modern China’s restrictions on Uyghur Muslims); pilgrimage as a tool for both cohesion and control.

  "Pilgrims become political pawns ... because pilgrimage is seen as so potent." (C, 44:02)

6. Who Pilgrimages? Exclusion, Marginalization & Gender Dynamics

[45:06-47:07]

• Women: Under historical suspicion—concerns about their motivations, accusations of impropriety, especially in the Middle Ages and in China. But many still went, and there's a rich, if often male-recorded, set of stories.

  "There was this huge suspicion of women ... is not about, you know, is it safe ... it's about why are they doing it." (C, 45:17)

• Poor & Marginalized: Generally regarded with suspicion when appearing as frequent or repeat pilgrims, especially in times of scarcity (e.g., Shikoku, Japan).

7. The Pilgrimage-Tourism Connection

[47:32-50:54]

• Tourism as Descendant: Pilgrimage predated organized tourism; tourism borrows pilgrim practices (travel guides, package tours, souvenirs).

  "People often say, has pilgrimage become touristic? Well, there was no such thing as tourism ... but there was pilgrimage." (C, 47:32)

• Historic Guides & Packages: Venice pre-Jerusalem sea crossings, medieval maps of Rome, and Thomas Cook’s 19th-century tours all echo modern tourist practices.

• Personal Experience: Felix Fabry's 15th-century complaint about being rushed on pilgrimage tours—a feeling familiar to modern tourists.

  "He writes ... 'I was rushed around too fast by the guides and I couldn't see everything I wanted to see.'" (C, 50:19)

8. Surprises & Ongoing Research

[51:06-53:49]

• Hurlock was surprised by the unevenness in the documentation of particular pilgrimage sites and the focus on the destination rather than journeys in many narratives.

  "There are large bits of pilgrimage that people don't really discuss ... quite often you only know what's happened ... when they're at the site." (C, 51:10)

• There is much work left to do, especially modern histories of pilgrimage—an area Hurlock plans to explore further.

Notable Quotes

• On Pilgrimage Diversity:

  "I really wanted to show how ... it has such a broad impact on all kinds of things that you might not think about ... from basically geopolitics ... to the production of souvenirs ..." (C, 02:43)

• On Practical Difficulties:

  "The logistics ... are problematic throughout history, and ... the journey is necessarily going to be more challenging [for the poor and for women]." (C, 27:23)

• On Politicization:

  "Pilgrims become political pawns ... because pilgrimage is seen as so potent." (C, 44:02)

• On the Origins of Tourism:

  "Pilgrimage was the original thing people did. Tourism is the secular more laid back version..." (C, 47:39)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:03] — Kathryn Hurlock's background & book motivation
• [04:35] — Selecting pilgrimage sites for the book
• [09:21] — Why people go on pilgrimage: motivations, examples
• [17:57] — Rise and fall of pilgrimage sites (Delphi, Chichen Itza, Eva Perón)
• [27:21] — Practical challenges: safety, accommodation, and commercialization
• [33:43] — Governments facilitating pilgrimage for legitimacy & control
• [39:58] — National and political pilgrimages (Rome, 19th/20th centuries)
• [42:50] — Direct governmental control, prohibition, and permit systems
• [45:06] — Gender, social class, and suspicion in pilgrimage history
• [47:32] — Pilgrimage as precursor to tourism; modern parallels
• [51:06] — Hurlock's research surprises & future directions

Memorable Moments

• Empress Wu's power-play pilgrimage to Taishan (12:20)
• The complicated posthumous journey of Eva Perón's embalmed body and its lasting shrine status (24:35)
• 19th-century Thomas Cook organizing package pilgrimages to Mecca (38:48)
• A 15th-century pilgrim complaining of being rushed through the Holy Land "too fast" by tourist-style guides (50:19)

Final Thoughts

Through this engaging and detailed discussion, listeners gain a nuanced appreciation for the continuing relevance and adaptability of pilgrimage—far beyond a simple religious journey. From sacred mountains to modern tombs, from mass movement to individual devotion, the pilgrimage remains a lens onto global history, politics, commerce, and identity.

For those interested in the full breadth and case studies, Kathryn Hurlock’s book, Holy Places: How Pilgrimage Changed the World (Profile, 2025), offers much more.