Podcast Summary: "Kerry Brown, The Great Reversal: Britain, China and the 400-Year Contest for Power"

Podcast: New Books Network (Asian Review of Books)
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Professor Kerry Brown
Date: January 1, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicholas Gordon interviews Kerry Brown, Professor of Chinese Studies at King's College London, about his latest book, The Great Reversal: Britain, China and the 400-Year Contest for Power (Yale University Press, 2024). The conversation traces the complex and evolving relationship between Britain and China, from their earliest failed diplomatic and commercial connections in the 16th century through imperial expansion, the Opium Wars, shifting economic tides, and the present day reversal of power. Brown offers insights into cultural perceptions, pivotal moments, and how the two nations continue to grapple with their intertwined histories.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The First Attempts at Contact (02:46–03:56)

• Elizabethan Outreach:
  • Queen Elizabeth I attempted to open relations with the Wan Li Emperor of China in the late 16th century, sending letters through expeditions that all failed to reach their destination.

    "None ended up being delivered because none of the ships actually got there. But that was the first real attempt at formal contact." (Kerry Brown, 03:26)

• Language barriers were significant, with letters written in Latin and even Spanish or Portuguese due to uncertainty about China’s language.

2. The Rise of Trade: The East India Company (03:56–05:37)

• Early Ventures:
  • The East India Company initially dealt more with India and Southeast Asia, but British traders tried small-scale commerce with China in the early 17th century.
  • Initial trading posts were in Japan and Xiamen (Amoy), with more permanent arrangements in the 18th century as the tea trade grew.

3. The Iconic McCartney Embassy (05:37–11:44)

• Why Send an Embassy?
  • Explosive growth in the tea trade made official relations necessary, as informal trading was rife with smuggling and lacked state oversight.
• About McCartney:
  • Lord George McCartney was an experienced diplomat appointed to manage China relations in 1792.
  • He aimed to improve China’s perception of Britain, which had previously been marred by disorderly traders and sailors.
• Cultural Encounter:
  • The embassy is famous for the disputed kowtow and for revealing deep cultural and protocol differences.

    "This was really an attempt to create a balanced, reciprocal relationship. And of course, that was unfolded over the next century and a half in ways which no one foresaw and which were sometimes extremely difficult." (Kerry Brown, 09:33)

• McCartney’s Reflections:
  • His accounts express a mixture of admiration and dismay at China’s antiquity and perceived stagnation, setting a precedent for the mixed feelings many Western observers have held since.

4. 19th Century: Idealism, Division, and Conflict (11:44–15:20)

• Changing Attitudes:
  • The British response to China grew increasingly complex, moving from idealized fascination to direct engagement by those with lived experience in China.
  • Divisions emerged between those with deep knowledge of China and the British public, which often saw China as idealized or as a threat.

    "It's weird that that still exists today. We still have... quite a divided view of China." (Kerry Brown, 13:46)

• The Opium Wars:
  • Marked the height of bellicose British attitudes and the onset of "unequal treaties," with profound and long-lasting effects.

5. Theft and Transformation: Robert Fortune and the Tea Trade (15:20–17:46)

• Botanical Espionage:
  • Robert Fortune, a Scottish botanist, undertook what Brown calls “one of the greatest IP thefts in human history”: secretly transferring tea plants and knowledge from China to India, breaking China’s monopoly.

    "It was an enormous act of intellectual property theft... and that really changed the whole kind of dimensions of the relationship." (Kerry Brown, 16:50)

6. 20th Century: Erosion of British Privilege (17:46–21:10)

• Declining Power:
  • After WWI, Britain’s influence wanes due to global shifts (rise of the US, Japan, decline of British Empire).
  • Extraterritorial rights and trading privileges (“unequal treaties”) evaporate in the 1930s–40s.

    "This was a slow retreat from rather than a dramatic exit, but it was a retreat all the same." (Kerry Brown, 20:46)

• China as "Informal Empire":
  • Britain avoided formal colonialism in China to sidestep the high costs experienced in India.

7. Recognizing the PRC: The Hong Kong Question (21:10–24:31)

• Early Recognition:
  • Britain recognizes the People’s Republic of China in 1950, mainly due to concerns over Hong Kong.

    "There's a two word answer to why Britain recognized the People's Republic of China and that was Hong Kong." (Kerry Brown, 21:27)

• Continued Contact:
  • Britain maintains formal diplomatic presence while the US refuses to recognize China until 1972; Hong Kong remains a critical link amid uncertainty.

8. Autonomy and Alignment with the US (24:31–27:08)

• Early PRC Relations:
  • Britain retains some autonomy in engaging China for much of the early PRC era, even as US–China contacts are nonexistent.

    “…there was some autonomy until really the 1970s and 80s when America became more dominant. And I suppose today you could say that there is much less scope…” (Kerry Brown, 26:14)

• US Influence:
  • Over time, British independence in China policy diminishes due to security and political ties with the United States.

9. Jardines and British Businesses after 1949 (27:08–29:57)

• Nationalization and Expulsion:
  • British firms like Jardine, HSBC, and Swire lose their Chinese assets, with drawn-out negotiations and eventual temporary exits.

    "By about 1955, 56, Jardine mostly had got whatever assets they could out of China... their representatives... were literally kept as hostage in a way, until they had sorted out a deal..." (Kerry Brown, 28:26)

• Return and Reinvention:
  • These companies manage comebacks in China after the Reform Era, demonstrating the potential for “second acts.”

10. Contemporary Reversal: China's Rise, Britain's Challenge (29:57–33:02)

• Power Dynamics Flipped:
  • Since 2005, China’s economy has far surpassed Britain’s, causing a reversal in influence and requiring a British mindset shift.

    “Britain's economy was larger than China's till 2005, and now China's is significantly larger, something like five or six times larger... I think mindsets in Britain have got to change.” (Kerry Brown, 30:39)

• Knowledge Disparity:
  • There are far more Chinese students in the UK than Britons studying China, highlighting an imbalance in cultural knowledge exchange.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Contact:

  “None ended up being delivered because none of the ships actually got there. But that was the first real attempt at formal contact.”
  — Kerry Brown (03:26)

• On the McCartney Embassy:

  “This was really an attempt to create a balanced, reciprocal relationship. And of course, that was unfolded over the next century and a half in ways which no one foresaw and which were sometimes extremely difficult.”
  — Kerry Brown (09:33)

• On British Views of China:

  “It's weird that that still exists today. We still have... quite a divided view of China.”
  — Kerry Brown (13:46)

• On Robert Fortune:

  “It was an enormous act of intellectual property theft because the Chinese didn't know it was happening. But as a result... the main tea growing areas were not in China, they were in India.”
  — Kerry Brown (16:50)

• On Retreat of Empire:

  “This was a slow retreat from rather than a dramatic exit, but it was a retreat all the same.”
  — Kerry Brown (20:46)

• On Britain's Recognition of the PRC:

  “There's a two word answer to why Britain recognized the People's Republic of China and that was Hong Kong.”
  — Kerry Brown (21:27)

• On Contemporary Dynamics:

  “Britain's economy was larger than China's till 2005, and now China's is significantly larger, something like five or six times larger... I think mindsets in Britain have got to change.”
  — Kerry Brown (30:39)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:46] — The failed Elizabethan letters and first contact attempts
• [03:56] — East India Company’s initial presence in China and limitations
• [05:37] — The McCartney Embassy: aims, personnel, cultural perceptions
• [11:44] — Public opinion, lived experience, and divisions in Britain over China
• [15:35] — Robert Fortune and the "great tea theft"
• [18:12] — Erosion of British power in early 20th century China
• [21:27] — Why Britain recognized the PRC: the centrality of Hong Kong
• [24:55] — The US–UK dynamic in China relations during the Cold War and after
• [27:39] — What happened to Jardines and other British businesses after 1949
• [29:57] — The contemporary reversal and what it means for UK–China relations

Closing & Further Reading

• Kerry Brown’s bibliography and latest news can be found at kerry-brown.co.uk.
• Next book (Nov. 2026) will cover Taiwan; Brown is also working on a monograph on Mahong and a study of Wang Huning.

Host Nicholas Gordon can be found at @NickRIGordon on Twitter and the Asian Review of Books for more interviews on Asian history and current affairs.